If you could go back in time and deal with loans Forum

[SD619]

Ok, but one day you'll remember we warned you. Good luck.

Bro al I'm saying is I don't know what else I could fucking do with my current lot in life.

I implore you, please give me advice on what to do instead. Or how to make this as managable as possible. I have no one else to get guidance from. I'm all alone in this, which is fine, but it's unfamiliar as hell.

Spend some time before going to law school identifying which luxuries (nice apartments, meals out, etc) are helpful to your mental happiness and encouraging of hard work, and which are just luxuries. For some people, having an apartment with a bellhop and gym that they feel totally safe in, that is totally clean, etc, makes a big difference. For others, well, it's obviously nice, but they'd be pretty happy in the slightly shabbier apartment down the block. I did not come from the sort of wealth that so many in law school and on TLS did, and as a consequence, I did not see the need to eat out all that often, live in the fanciest law school housing options, buy new suits (I got my ~$700 interview suit in great condition used from eBay for ~$150), etc. I basically spent money when social circumstances called for it: when my friends were going out (and then I generally didn't order appetizers or fancy cocktails), etc. Because that meant I was eating out 1-2 times per week rather than 5-10, and because I lived in a suitably nice (but less luxurious) apartment for about $400/m less than most of my classmates, and because of my general low spending on clothes and other accessories, I spent probably around $10,000/year less than what my schools' COA allowed for. (And I had friends who were constantly stressed about running out of the COA allowance.)

My biggest piece of advice to you is to focus in law school on law school, and not to fall into the trap of spending money that's available for the sake of spending that money. This approach will likely result in you saving $5-10k per year on COA all while maximizing your chances for post-ls success.

Thanks again for this advice. I will internalize all if this.

I just don't think you guys get it. To me luxury is having a few bucks for an Arizona and some chips lol.

I love my life but it's not going to be hard to top my current situation (financially).

In regards to the Chicago pedigree- my ultimate goal is to pursue public interest and advocate for policy reform (I want to facilitate an upward trend in the Latino educational pipeline and my thesis is on juvenile justice reform). Thing is- I don't want to pursue appellate litigation entirely

I haven't mapped out my entire life yet

[Fed_Atty]

Going to a T-14 at or near sticker (is that $15K total or per year?) if you're not aiming for prestige legal jobs is a horrible idea, given the alternatives, i.e., a full ride at a respectable school.

I feel like this got lost in the shuffle. You don't seem to be dead set on a prestigious clerkship, academia or working somewhere where the Chicago pedigree is paramount. You seem to indicate that you would be perfectly happy working Midlaw or DA, which are easily possible from a school that will give you a full ride. Why put yourself so deep in debt unnecessarily. If you really want to hedge your bets, you could likely get a full scholarship and go at night. That way you wouldn't have to even take out COL loans, particularly since you can comfortably live off a comparatively low wage job.

I agree. But if the OP's only other option is to save a little bit more at UCLA, I'm not sure that makes sense either. If the OP had a full ride at UCLA, then this might be a different question. But we're talking about a relatively small COA difference for a pretty substantial job safety net.

That may be his only option out of the schools that he applied to. If his numbers are good enough to get into Chicago - they would likely get him in for free at a pretty decent school. Not trying to start a debate about when law school becomes a losing proposition, even if free.

[zot1]

Unky Aby-

The OP talked about being happy with a bus pass. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here I guess. You really think that a poor person who wins the lottery is less likely to blow through that cash than a rich person who wins the lottery? Maybe I'm projecting based on my own taste in granite countertops that I have developed over the past 3 years but I think people who aren't used to having money are way more likely to spend it and get themselves in financial trouble than people who are used to having money.

Also I don't know how you could possibly read this thread and your takeaway is "This guy is committed to PI." Like, at all.

What do I think the OP should do? I think the OP should do what I said in the post you quoted. Yes, yes, we know, you're a VERY PRESTIGIOUS person. That doesn't mean people should gleefully sign on to places like Chicago at sticker debt.

I'm with Campos if the OP really does want to do PI.

The 30 for 30 Broke documentary is a relevant source.

Models and bottles for life!

[SD619]

Unky Aby-

The OP talked about being happy with a bus pass. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here I guess. You really think that a poor person who wins the lottery is less likely to blow through that cash than a rich person who wins the lottery? Maybe I'm projecting based on my own taste in granite countertops that I have developed over the past 3 years but I think people who aren't used to having money are way more likely to spend it and get themselves in financial trouble than people who are used to having money.

Also I don't know how you could possibly read this thread and your takeaway is "This guy is committed to PI." Like, at all.

What do I think the OP should do? I think the OP should do what I said in the post you quoted. Yes, yes, we know, you're a VERY PRESTIGIOUS person. That doesn't mean people should gleefully sign on to places like Chicago at sticker debt.

I'm with Campos if the OP really does want to do PI.

I agree with your theory in general. However, it's important to note my frugality and prudence is a result of my upbringing. The scarcity mindset can cause some to spend lavishly when they receive the means, but I'm (borderline) excessively parsimonious. I save every penny I can get my hands on. I am a product of my environment but it's safe to say that I'm not a monkey with bananas, here.

Don't worry about it, though. I'm used to people talking-down to me the moment I mention I come from the gutters haha.

Also- RIP prince

I just feel like the leap from working poor to middle class is worth a lot more than sticker at Chicago, to me, personally.

[BigZuck]

Unky Aby-

The OP talked about being happy with a bus pass. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here I guess. You really think that a poor person who wins the lottery is less likely to blow through that cash than a rich person who wins the lottery? Maybe I'm projecting based on my own taste in granite countertops that I have developed over the past 3 years but I think people who aren't used to having money are way more likely to spend it and get themselves in financial trouble than people who are used to having money.

Also I don't know how you could possibly read this thread and your takeaway is "This guy is committed to PI." Like, at all.

What do I think the OP should do? I think the OP should do what I said in the post you quoted. Yes, yes, we know, you're a VERY PRESTIGIOUS person. That doesn't mean people should gleefully sign on to places like Chicago at sticker debt.

I'm with Campos if the OP really does want to do PI.

I agree with your theory in general. However, it's important to note my frugality and prudence is a result of my upbringing. The scarcity mindset can cause some to spend lavishly when they receive the means, but I'm (borderline) excessively parsimonious. I save every penny I can get my hands on. I am a product of my environment but it's safe to say that I'm not a monkey with bananas, here.

Don't worry about it, though. I'm used to people talking-down to me the moment I mention I come from the gutters haha.

Also- RIP prince

I just feel like the leap from working poor to middle class is worth a lot more than sticker at Chicago, to me, personally.

I'm not trying to talk down to you, what I'm saying is based on my own experience, what I've seen from others, and stuff like the aforementioned "Broke" documentary.

You do you dude, if you can be given a ton of money and still be highly frugal then good for you.

[SD619]

Unky Aby-

The OP talked about being happy with a bus pass. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here I guess. You really think that a poor person who wins the lottery is less likely to blow through that cash than a rich person who wins the lottery? Maybe I'm projecting based on my own taste in granite countertops that I have developed over the past 3 years but I think people who aren't used to having money are way more likely to spend it and get themselves in financial trouble than people who are used to having money.

Also I don't know how you could possibly read this thread and your takeaway is "This guy is committed to PI." Like, at all.

What do I think the OP should do? I think the OP should do what I said in the post you quoted. Yes, yes, we know, you're a VERY PRESTIGIOUS person. That doesn't mean people should gleefully sign on to places like Chicago at sticker debt.

I'm with Campos if the OP really does want to do PI.

I agree with your theory in general. However, it's important to note my frugality and prudence is a result of my upbringing. The scarcity mindset can cause some to spend lavishly when they receive the means, but I'm (borderline) excessively parsimonious. I save every penny I can get my hands on. I am a product of my environment but it's safe to say that I'm not a monkey with bananas, here.

Don't worry about it, though. I'm used to people talking-down to me the moment I mention I come from the gutters haha.

Also- RIP prince

I just feel like the leap from working poor to middle class is worth a lot more than sticker at Chicago, to me, personally.

I'm not trying to talk down to you, what I'm saying is based on my own experience, what I've seen from others, and stuff like the aforementioned "Broke" documentary.

You do you dude, if you can be given a ton of money and still be highly frugal then good for you.

Totally cool- I'm not offended and I appreciate everyone who posts in this thread.

If anything, just say a prayer for me or send some good vibes into the universe for me. Haha.

So far I've been frugal, but I also haven't had any money yet, so jury is still out.. I just don't have a very lavish personality in general (at the moment) and I'm pretty sentimental. So the idea of an elite degree when no one around me was formally educated is a huge deal to me.

[BigZuck]

Unky Aby-

The OP talked about being happy with a bus pass. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here I guess. You really think that a poor person who wins the lottery is less likely to blow through that cash than a rich person who wins the lottery? Maybe I'm projecting based on my own taste in granite countertops that I have developed over the past 3 years but I think people who aren't used to having money are way more likely to spend it and get themselves in financial trouble than people who are used to having money.

Also I don't know how you could possibly read this thread and your takeaway is "This guy is committed to PI." Like, at all.

What do I think the OP should do? I think the OP should do what I said in the post you quoted. Yes, yes, we know, you're a VERY PRESTIGIOUS person. That doesn't mean people should gleefully sign on to places like Chicago at sticker debt.

I'm with Campos if the OP really does want to do PI.

I agree with your theory in general. However, it's important to note my frugality and prudence is a result of my upbringing. The scarcity mindset can cause some to spend lavishly when they receive the means, but I'm (borderline) excessively parsimonious. I save every penny I can get my hands on. I am a product of my environment but it's safe to say that I'm not a monkey with bananas, here.

Don't worry about it, though. I'm used to people talking-down to me the moment I mention I come from the gutters haha.

Also- RIP prince

I just feel like the leap from working poor to middle class is worth a lot more than sticker at Chicago, to me, personally.

I'm not trying to talk down to you, what I'm saying is based on my own experience, what I've seen from others, and stuff like the aforementioned "Broke" documentary.

You do you dude, if you can be given a ton of money and still be highly frugal then good for you.

Totally cool- I'm not offended and I appreciate everyone who posts in this thread.

If anything, just say a prayer for me or send some good vibes into the universe for me. Haha.

So far I've been frugal, but I also haven't had any money yet, so jury is still out.. I just don't have a very lavish personality in general (at the moment) and I'm pretty sentimental. So the idea of an elite degree when no one around me was formally educated is a huge deal to me.

I guess I just think it's easier to not spend hypothetical money when you've never had money and thus frugality is more of a necessity than a choice than it is to not spend actual money. I don't think you can really know how you will do until you do it (believe me, it's something I've struggled with that I wasn't planning on struggling with).

You'll find out soon enough I guess. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[PMan99]

I'm not sure why it's relevant. I've paid a substantial amount--certainly enough that I don't think anyone here could accuse me of not knowing what a high debt load feels like. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over exact amounts. Feel free to explain why you think that $300,000 in debt burden on a ten-year repayment plan in Chicago on a biglaw (or midlaw) salary will result in feeling like you're living the life of a pauper. I suspect that when you do the math, you'll realize that this sort of DTI will result at worst in living like you're making in the $50,000-$70,000 range (e.g., solidly middle class).

Incidentally, to the OP: you should be aware that DA positions don't pay extraordinarily well. I'd spend some time researching DA pay in the locations in which you'd be looking for jobs, and making sure that Chicago's loan assistance program is sufficiently generous to make that work financially (ditto AUSA positions or whatever other jobs you're considering). It may be the case that your "dream job" pays only $40,000/year, and that amount is not enough to make you happy even if Chicago pays your loans for you. (Or, it may be the case that your "dream job" pays enough that Chicago's loan assistance doesn't kick in, but not enough that you can live the life you want to live with your debt burden.)

It's certainly possible to service 250k-300k debt a year on a 100k midlaw salary, but it isn't really easy. You're looking at about $5800 after taxes each month, $3400 of which (estimated) goes straight to loans. You're down to $2400, then you take off another thousand for rent, add in health insurance, transit, and utilities, and you're looking at $1,000 a month not only to save for retirement but also before any non-job related expenses (food, clothes, furniture, appliances, family, non-commute travel, money on hygiene, etc.). Maybe you can live farther away and save money on rent, but then you have to spend more on travel. Maybe you can live in a bad neighborhood that's cheap, but then you're starting to live like the paupers we said we weren't trying to live like. But on the other hand, maybe you get hurt and have to pay some ridiculous deductible. Maybe your parents get sick and you have to fly halfway across the country on a moments notice on a $1,000 coach ticket. Maybe you want to get married. There isn't really room for any of these contingencies when you're saving $0 non-retirement dollars a month.

Don't most midlaw firms pay for health insurance and contribute to (or at least match) retirement? My sense was that the pay tends to be a good bit lower but the benefits are usually a little better.

But in any event, what you're describing is a pretty middle-class life. Sure, you'll probably have to make some compromises: you won't be able to live exactly where you want to live, drive the exact car you want to drive, wear the exact clothes you want to wear, etc. And you're right: when emergencies come up, things can get tough. You might have to be pretty disciplined to save for big events like weddings, or to build a medical emergency fund. Most of my families members (who just about all fall in the middle class range) have had to do things like replace eating out with a lot of crock pot meals, delay replacing an old car, get their kids' clothes second-hand, etc, during several-year periods of savings. I'm not arguing here that there are no compromises (or no insubstantial compromises) that comes with a big debt / midlaw career. Obviously it's easier to be wealthy. My point is just that these compromises are not equivalent to those faced by folks actually in poverty, and that the lifestyle that a big debt / midlaw career will yield (during the ten year period of loan repayment) is pretty far off from being a pauper's lifestyle.

It's fair to say that it isn't the beggars lifestyle, but according to the HLS take home pay calculator 100k income with 275k debt is equivalent to about 38k income with no debt. In other words, marginally more than the 31,200 you'd make in a high minimum wage area (granted that 6k is a very important 6k).

[Nagster5]

0L disclaimer

Taking on that much debt with no safety net is just a crazy bad deal. As a fellow poor, you're not going to be able to rely on people the way well heeled sticker kids can, even if they are paying for school themselves. No one is going to send you money to make ends meet when things just don't add up. No one is going to help you pay for flights or housing or whatever to get to your summer job. These are the things kids paying sticker usually can count on. DF is right, you are going to take so long just to break even. Riding the IBR+LRAP train is an option, but it's still only good for ten years at UChi. You're not going to dent that much debt significantly paying 15% of your low AGI over ten years. So ten years in LRAP goes away and you're still a long ways away from debt forgiveness with the same or even higher debt load. What if you can't land a fedgov gig or your NGO goes under and you have trouble finding a job for a few months? What happens if you get sick and can't work for a while? The interest and penalties start to accelerate and you are worse off then when you graduated ten years ago. You have no collateral and the debt isn't dischargeable. If you hit a roadblock in your career you could be paying this back until you die.

You could almost certainly make what you'd be making as a local/state or nonprofit lawyer right now without a law degree. Joining the AF for three years and having them pay seems like a great plan, you already have a degree so you can just become an officer and get a very solid resume line, make great money, and not have to pay ~350k. Military deferments are pretty much automatic, Chicago will still be a top school in three years and they'll hold your spot.

You say you're willing to live like a pauper to make this work, which is fine. But why not just live like a pauper now with a good job, and save money instead of hoping to get to even after a quarter century? You could retire instead of just starting to be able to really save beyond IRA contributions. Or sit out a year and get some WE, retake, tighten up your apps, and get decent money at a lower T14/full ride at a T20. Or just go to UCLA instead. UChi is not worth it to someone in your position is not worth sticker. You won't be making the jump from poor to MC, you'll be making the jump from poor to -$250k and still living the same life. Unlike a majority of T14 students, you have nothing to fall back on. It's a huge unnecessary gamble with a pretty low payout if it does work out. You have lots of better options. Listen to the people who have done this, read the vale of tears thread, things are bad and could very possibly get worse in the future.

[Phil Brooks]

1. Don't buy books. All the books are available in the library on reserve.

2. Don't buy the school's health insurance plan. There are much cheaper plans out there that meet Obamacare requirements.

3. Become a Resident Advisor in an undergraduate dorm to get free housing and food. Watch your cost of living vanish.

4. Apply to outside scholarships. Ones I can think of that are not diversity-based are: Bloomberg Law Write-On Competition; Judge John R. Brown Writing Competition; Federal Circuit Bar Association; Avvo; some Chicago-based ones. Also you said that you are low-income. There are a TON available for low-income people, first generation in college, etc.

5. If you are going into BigLaw, then just get private loans. Don't get destroyed by the 7.8% interest rate on government loans. It would be ideal if you can ask your school for a loan because these are usually subsidized (i.e. no interest accrues until after graduation). But you would have to find a way to explain to them why you cannot get government loans. Or, consider deferring for a year to work and save money in an amount that is equivalent to the interest that will accrue during school, and then once you're in school pay off the interest that accrues every month. I cannot stress this enough: avoid the accrual of compound interest while you are in school.

6. Contribute $20k of your SA earnings each summer to tuition.

7. Keep asking the school for scholarship money, even after you commit to the school. You will not interact with the admissions office at all once school starts so don't worry about being persistent with them. Sometimes schools have money left over at the end of the cycle and they will give it to someone who has been polite but persistent. My school went from giving me $0 to giving me $30k.

I did all of the above (except I turned down a 1L SA for a "prestigious" job in London, which I now regret; and I was an RA only during my 3L year, primarily because I could not subject my long-distance SO to a twin-bed for three years), and I ended up with just five figures of debt.

I had to do all that because I discovered TLS only after entering law school, and had been too clueless to figure out how the negotiation process worked (and listened to my stupid boomer parents who thought one should "start one's career" as soon as possible and didn't understand the concept of retaking etc.).

Good luck.

[SD619]

1. Don't buy books. All the books are available in the library on reserve.

2. Don't buy the school's health insurance plan. There are much cheaper plans out there that meet Obamacare requirements.

3. Become a Resident Advisor in an undergraduate dorm to get free housing and food. Watch your cost of living vanish.

4. Apply to outside scholarships. Ones I can think of that are not diversity-based are: Bloomberg Law Write-On Competition; Judge John R. Brown Writing Competition; Federal Circuit Bar Association; Avvo; some Chicago-based ones. Also you said that you are low-income. There are a TON available for low-income people, first generation in college, etc.

5. If you are going into BigLaw, then just get private loans. Don't get destroyed by the 7.8% interest rate on government loans. It would be ideal if you can ask your school for a loan because these are usually subsidized (i.e. no interest accrues until after graduation). But you would have to find a way to explain to them why you cannot get government loans. Or, consider deferring for a year to work and save money in an amount that is equivalent to the interest that will accrue during school, and then once you're in school pay off the interest that accrues every month. I cannot stress this enough: avoid the accrual of compound interest while you are in school.

6. Contribute $20k of your SA earnings each summer to tuition.

7. Keep asking the school for scholarship money, even after you commit to the school. You will not interact with the admissions office at all once school starts so don't worry about being persistent with them. Sometimes schools have money left over at the end of the cycle and they will give it to someone who has been polite but persistent. My school went from giving me $0 to giving me $30k.

I did all of the above (except I turned down a 1L SA for a "prestigious" job in London, which I now regret; and I was an RA only during my 3L year, primarily because I could not subject my long-distance SO to a twin-bed for three years), and I ended up with just five figures of debt.

I had to do all that because I discovered TLS only after entering law school, and had been too clueless to figure out how the negotiation process worked (and listened to my stupid boomer parents who thought one should "start one's career" as soon as possible and didn't understand the concept of retaking etc.).

Good luck.

You are the GOAT. Thank you for this hope and advice. I'm screenshotting this. I appreciate the great advice.

[SD619]

0L disclaimer

Taking on that much debt with no safety net is just a crazy bad deal. As a fellow poor, you're not going to be able to rely on people the way well heeled sticker kids can, even if they are paying for school themselves. No one is going to send you money to make ends meet when things just don't add up. No one is going to help you pay for flights or housing or whatever to get to your summer job. These are the things kids paying sticker usually can count on. DF is right, you are going to take so long just to break even. Riding the IBR+LRAP train is an option, but it's still only good for ten years at UChi. You're not going to dent that much debt significantly paying 15% of your low AGI over ten years. So ten years in LRAP goes away and you're still a long ways away from debt forgiveness with the same or even higher debt load. What if you can't land a fedgov gig or your NGO goes under and you have trouble finding a job for a few months? What happens if you get sick and can't work for a while? The interest and penalties start to accelerate and you are worse off then when you graduated ten years ago. You have no collateral and the debt isn't dischargeable. If you hit a roadblock in your career you could be paying this back until you die.

You could almost certainly make what you'd be making as a local/state or nonprofit lawyer right now without a law degree. Joining the AF for three years and having them pay seems like a great plan, you already have a degree so you can just become an officer and get a very solid resume line, make great money, and not have to pay ~350k. Military deferments are pretty much automatic, Chicago will still be a top school in three years and they'll hold your spot.

You say you're willing to live like a pauper to make this work, which is fine. But why not just live like a pauper now with a good job, and save money instead of hoping to get to even after a quarter century? You could retire instead of just starting to be able to really save beyond IRA contributions. Or sit out a year and get some WE, retake, tighten up your apps, and get decent money at a lower T14/full ride at a T20. Or just go to UCLA instead. UChi is not worth it to someone in your position is not worth sticker. You won't be making the jump from poor to MC, you'll be making the jump from poor to -$250k and still living the same life. Unlike a majority of T14 students, you have nothing to fall back on. It's a huge unnecessary gamble with a pretty low payout if it does work out. You have lots of better options. Listen to the people who have done this, read the vale of tears thread, things are bad and could very possibly get worse in the future.

I'll take this into consideration. Thank you for your input.

[somethingElse]

Nagster gave you partially false information (unless I missed something??). But if you stay in IBR/PSLF + Chicago's LRAP for ten years, assuming the government doesn't nix/modify PSLF (which is a discussion in and of itself), all of your debt will be forgiven. Nagster did not mention PSLF, which forgives your loans after 120 payments. I'm not trying to give you any advice as to what to do, just btw.

[landshoes]

I'll play the optimist.

Go to Chicago - you'd have to really mess up/time the economy poorly not to get NYC biglaw (which is not true at say Duke). You'll likely have a miserable life, you'll be paying loans through your 30's and your kids will resent you--but at least they'll have the opportunity to resent you and a safety net to make their own mistakes.

Law is a good bootstraps option for the upper middle class. It's just a terrible option if that's not your goal or needed because you have less time intensive or cheaper routes to get there, because what will happen is that you will throw out so, so much of your precious youthful time, energy and life to get to that status.

Good luck! Sincerely! It's not the best option, but it's relatively egalitarian/attrition-based, so it might be the best option or path of least resistance for your circumstances. But just check those 12 hour day comments, because don't go in expecting 12; go in expecting 18 and you'll be okay.

I appreciate the honesty. Keep in mind 12 hours in a factory (beginning at 3am) may be a bit different from 12 in an office and 6 at home.

One thing that pisses me off about TLS is all this talk about trading the best years of your life to a suit in an office. Dude, my youth would be wasted working at panera where I used to stock freezers at 4am and make overpriced sandwiches for spoiled ass law students. Ironic as hell.

Youth is wasted where I come from anyway. At least I'd be obeying the law and pursuing the promise of something at the end of the road with a degree that's worth something.

This is my background too, and my feeling about "wasting" time...I think you'll do fine at UChicago if it's what you want to do. If you end up coming here, please look me up ASAP, I'd be happy to provide help/cultural guidance/info about the best profs to suck up to for someone from your background/etc.

[landshoes]

1. Don't buy books. All the books are available in the library on reserve.

2. Don't buy the school's health insurance plan. There are much cheaper plans out there that meet Obamacare requirements.

3. Become a Resident Advisor in an undergraduate dorm to get free housing and food. Watch your cost of living vanish.

4. Apply to outside scholarships. Ones I can think of that are not diversity-based are: Bloomberg Law Write-On Competition; Judge John R. Brown Writing Competition; Federal Circuit Bar Association; Avvo; some Chicago-based ones. Also you said that you are low-income. There are a TON available for low-income people, first generation in college, etc.

5. If you are going into BigLaw, then just get private loans. Don't get destroyed by the 7.8% interest rate on government loans. It would be ideal if you can ask your school for a loan because these are usually subsidized (i.e. no interest accrues until after graduation). But you would have to find a way to explain to them why you cannot get government loans. Or, consider deferring for a year to work and save money in an amount that is equivalent to the interest that will accrue during school, and then once you're in school pay off the interest that accrues every month. I cannot stress this enough: avoid the accrual of compound interest while you are in school.

6. Contribute $20k of your SA earnings each summer to tuition.

7. Keep asking the school for scholarship money, even after you commit to the school. You will not interact with the admissions office at all once school starts so don't worry about being persistent with them. Sometimes schools have money left over at the end of the cycle and they will give it to someone who has been polite but persistent. My school went from giving me $0 to giving me $30k.

I did all of the above (except I turned down a 1L SA for a "prestigious" job in London, which I now regret; and I was an RA only during my 3L year, primarily because I could not subject my long-distance SO to a twin-bed for three years), and I ended up with just five figures of debt.

I had to do all that because I discovered TLS only after entering law school, and had been too clueless to figure out how the negotiation process worked (and listened to my stupid boomer parents who thought one should "start one's career" as soon as possible and didn't understand the concept of retaking etc.).

Good luck.

You are the GOAT. Thank you for this hope and advice. I'm screenshotting this. I appreciate the great advice.

Some of this is straight up wrong, or not relevant at Chicago. If you think you might do DA don't get private loans. They generally are a terrible idea for various reasons (believe me, I had some from undergrad...disaster, worst decision of my life). You can get used books cheaply from other students so I wouldn't worry about those. I do agree about politely continuing to ask for more money.

[landshoes]

Also no one I know does resident assisting...I don't think it's open to law students. We have free lunch every day basically if you go to a lunch talk, and it's good food (not just pizza) so that will help with food costs.

[Phil Brooks]

1. Don't buy books. All the books are available in the library on reserve.

2. Don't buy the school's health insurance plan. There are much cheaper plans out there that meet Obamacare requirements.

3. Become a Resident Advisor in an undergraduate dorm to get free housing and food. Watch your cost of living vanish.

4. Apply to outside scholarships. Ones I can think of that are not diversity-based are: Bloomberg Law Write-On Competition; Judge John R. Brown Writing Competition; Federal Circuit Bar Association; Avvo; some Chicago-based ones. Also you said that you are low-income. There are a TON available for low-income people, first generation in college, etc.

5. If you are going into BigLaw, then just get private loans. Don't get destroyed by the 7.8% interest rate on government loans. It would be ideal if you can ask your school for a loan because these are usually subsidized (i.e. no interest accrues until after graduation). But you would have to find a way to explain to them why you cannot get government loans. Or, consider deferring for a year to work and save money in an amount that is equivalent to the interest that will accrue during school, and then once you're in school pay off the interest that accrues every month. I cannot stress this enough: avoid the accrual of compound interest while you are in school.

6. Contribute $20k of your SA earnings each summer to tuition.

7. Keep asking the school for scholarship money, even after you commit to the school. You will not interact with the admissions office at all once school starts so don't worry about being persistent with them. Sometimes schools have money left over at the end of the cycle and they will give it to someone who has been polite but persistent. My school went from giving me $0 to giving me $30k.

I did all of the above (except I turned down a 1L SA for a "prestigious" job in London, which I now regret; and I was an RA only during my 3L year, primarily because I could not subject my long-distance SO to a twin-bed for three years), and I ended up with just five figures of debt.

I had to do all that because I discovered TLS only after entering law school, and had been too clueless to figure out how the negotiation process worked (and listened to my stupid boomer parents who thought one should "start one's career" as soon as possible and didn't understand the concept of retaking etc.).

Good luck.

You are the GOAT. Thank you for this hope and advice. I'm screenshotting this. I appreciate the great advice.

Some of this is straight up wrong, or not relevant at Chicago. If you think you might do DA don't get private loans. They generally are a terrible idea for various reasons (believe me, I had some from undergrad...disaster, worst decision of my life). You can get used books cheaply from other students so I wouldn't worry about those. I do agree about politely continuing to ask for more money.

No, it is your nitpicking that is straight up wrong, or not relevant.

I said clearly that he should get private loans "if [he is] going into BigLaw." So the point about being a DA is irrelevant.

And there is a position equivalent to a resident assistant at Chicago, called a "Resident Head." (http://housing.uchicago.edu/community_l ... ent_staff/)

[barkschool]

On that note^, don't let yourself go, "eh, what's another couple hundred here or there on 200K." That's how 200ish --> 400ish. And don't compare it to a mortgage, because student loans are not comparable.

Also obligatory, are you suuuuure about law regardless of money???

[landshoes]

1. Don't buy books. All the books are available in the library on reserve.

2. Don't buy the school's health insurance plan. There are much cheaper plans out there that meet Obamacare requirements.

3. Become a Resident Advisor in an undergraduate dorm to get free housing and food. Watch your cost of living vanish.

4. Apply to outside scholarships. Ones I can think of that are not diversity-based are: Bloomberg Law Write-On Competition; Judge John R. Brown Writing Competition; Federal Circuit Bar Association; Avvo; some Chicago-based ones. Also you said that you are low-income. There are a TON available for low-income people, first generation in college, etc.

5. If you are going into BigLaw, then just get private loans. Don't get destroyed by the 7.8% interest rate on government loans. It would be ideal if you can ask your school for a loan because these are usually subsidized (i.e. no interest accrues until after graduation). But you would have to find a way to explain to them why you cannot get government loans. Or, consider deferring for a year to work and save money in an amount that is equivalent to the interest that will accrue during school, and then once you're in school pay off the interest that accrues every month. I cannot stress this enough: avoid the accrual of compound interest while you are in school.

6. Contribute $20k of your SA earnings each summer to tuition.

7. Keep asking the school for scholarship money, even after you commit to the school. You will not interact with the admissions office at all once school starts so don't worry about being persistent with them. Sometimes schools have money left over at the end of the cycle and they will give it to someone who has been polite but persistent. My school went from giving me $0 to giving me $30k.

I did all of the above (except I turned down a 1L SA for a "prestigious" job in London, which I now regret; and I was an RA only during my 3L year, primarily because I could not subject my long-distance SO to a twin-bed for three years), and I ended up with just five figures of debt.

I had to do all that because I discovered TLS only after entering law school, and had been too clueless to figure out how the negotiation process worked (and listened to my stupid boomer parents who thought one should "start one's career" as soon as possible and didn't understand the concept of retaking etc.).

Good luck.

You are the GOAT. Thank you for this hope and advice. I'm screenshotting this. I appreciate the great advice.

Some of this is straight up wrong, or not relevant at Chicago. If you think you might do DA don't get private loans. They generally are a terrible idea for various reasons (believe me, I had some from undergrad...disaster, worst decision of my life). You can get used books cheaply from other students so I wouldn't worry about those. I do agree about politely continuing to ask for more money.

No, it is your nitpicking that is straight up wrong, or not relevant.

I said clearly that he should get private loans "if [he is] going into BigLaw." So the point about being a DA is irrelevant.

And there is a position equivalent to a resident assistant at Chicago, called a "Resident Head." (http://housing.uchicago.edu/community_l ... ent_staff/)

It's not nitpicking. Private loans are a huge risk because not only do they not have the LRAP / PSLF type protections, they lack federal protections when it comes to things like forbearance. It's a huge mistake to get them when you can get federal loans. You won't get a good interest rate with private loans, either -- I think they offered me 10%.

It also makes DA much harder to decide to do -- but even if it didn't, it's not a good idea.

[landshoes]

Also, there aren't that many resident heads and the substantial majority of resident heads are married couples. I wouldn't count on it at all.

[SD619]

I'll play the optimist.

Go to Chicago - you'd have to really mess up/time the economy poorly not to get NYC biglaw (which is not true at say Duke). You'll likely have a miserable life, you'll be paying loans through your 30's and your kids will resent you--but at least they'll have the opportunity to resent you and a safety net to make their own mistakes.

Law is a good bootstraps option for the upper middle class. It's just a terrible option if that's not your goal or needed because you have less time intensive or cheaper routes to get there, because what will happen is that you will throw out so, so much of your precious youthful time, energy and life to get to that status.

Good luck! Sincerely! It's not the best option, but it's relatively egalitarian/attrition-based, so it might be the best option or path of least resistance for your circumstances. But just check those 12 hour day comments, because don't go in expecting 12; go in expecting 18 and you'll be okay.

I appreciate the honesty. Keep in mind 12 hours in a factory (beginning at 3am) may be a bit different from 12 in an office and 6 at home.

One thing that pisses me off about TLS is all this talk about trading the best years of your life to a suit in an office. Dude, my youth would be wasted working at panera where I used to stock freezers at 4am and make overpriced sandwiches for spoiled ass law students. Ironic as hell.

Youth is wasted where I come from anyway. At least I'd be obeying the law and pursuing the promise of something at the end of the road with a degree that's worth something.

This is my background too, and my feeling about "wasting" time...I think you'll do fine at UChicago if it's what you want to do. If you end up coming here, please look me up ASAP, I'd be happy to provide help/cultural guidance/info about the best profs to suck up to for someone from your background/etc.

I really appreciate the comment. I'll definitely look you up- I would really appreciate your help and advice. Thank you. Like I said- any help when I'm dropped in uncharted waters will be invaluable to me.

[SD619]

To everyone who is commenting: seriously I am so grateful for your advice. Be it cautionary or encouraging, the thought that I have so many who have been through this situation, giving me advice... It's exactly what I need.

I'm at home to finish my senior thesis remotely and it's tough to be back here after such an extended interim. I don't have Internet so I have to respond to these comments on my phone (thank god I managed to pioneer the data plan with Verizon. 30 bucks a month gets me unlimited cellular data which is almost invaluable to me.. Lol)

I sent in a request to UChicago to ask for a boost in scholarship money. I am internalizing all advice here even if it's not all exactly what I would love to hear.

[anyriotgirl]

have you considered taking some time off to work? if you managed to get into chicago, you can probably get someone to pay you $40k a year to do something. Law school will always be there. The chance to figure out what you want to do unencumbered by 300k in debt won't be there after law school.

[SD619]

have you considered taking some time off to work? if you managed to get into chicago, you can probably get someone to pay you $40k a year to do something. Law school will always be there. The chance to figure out what you want to do unencumbered by 300k in debt won't be there after law school.

This is true.

And no- I haven't considered it. I figure I should get to work. Grab my JD by age 24, have 6 years to make a dent in my loans before I hit my 3rd decade of life

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

have you considered taking some time off to work? if you managed to get into chicago, you can probably get someone to pay you $40k a year to do something. Law school will always be there. The chance to figure out what you want to do unencumbered by 300k in debt won't be there after law school.

This is true.

And no- I haven't considered it. I figure I should get to work. Grab my JD by age 24, have 6 years to make a dent in my loans before I hit my 3rd decade of life

OP has all these people telling him sticker debt is a terrible idea and is still going through absurd mental gymnastics to talk himself into it. Don't waste your energy on this one, guys; it's a hopeless cause.

OP: Years from now, with no end in sight to your debtpwnage, remember that everyone warned you, and you thought they were all crazy.