Do you think the legal career will turn around? Forum

[joeycxxxx09]

You guys are dicks. If you have minimum debt, go. If you get into the top 25 schools with some money, go. Don't go to a school out of the top 50 unless you're cool with potentially only landing a low paying job that doesn't require a JD. The legal profession isn't going down a blackhole but it's certainly not going to be in Time's list of the top 10 jobs in the next 20 years.

No one is saying that the above advice is always wrong. The problem here is that you're ignoring the motivations for going. These reasons are legitimate if you have good reasons for being a lawyer, but it still entails a lot of risk. That risk should only be assumed if you have a reason for going to law school better than not being able to find another job.

What's a better reason than not being able to find a job? If X can't find a job, why not do law school, when law school can potentially provide a good job. Especially with a small debt load, which mitigates the risk you're talking about by a good amount, I don't see what the problem is with that motivation. And now we need good reasons for being a lawyer? Such as?

Knowing you won't hate it. Going into debt for a job you hate is not a recipe for happiness.

How would anyone know they won't hate it? Are you supposed to try-out being a lawyer for a day? What are you even talking about? And you guys really like to throw the debt in people's faces. I think most people have been clear that going into huge amounts of debt for law school is stupid. Just plain ignorant. Now a minimal amount of debt? That's to be expected with any type of graduate school, which is what a large amount of humanities majors would do if not law school. The fact of the matter is that a humanities major is not going to attain a high paying job with only a BA or BS without a substantial amount of luck.

[NoBladesNoBows]

[joeycxxxx09]

How would anyone know they won't hate it? Are you supposed to try-out being a lawyer for a day? What are you even talking about? And you guys really like to throw the debt in people's faces. I think most people have been clear that going into huge amounts of debt for law school is stupid. Just plain ignorant. Now a minimal amount of debt? That's to be expected with any type of graduate school, which is what a large amount of humanities majors would do if not law school. The fact of the matter is that a humanities major is not going to attain a high paying job with only a BA or BS without a substantial amount of luck.

Please do not go to law school for this reason. Please. Just read any of these and try to find me a single one that encourages you to go to law school for this reason:

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid= ... 5.9115j0j9

Can you really ignore almost every single opinion written up by actual law students and lawyers? Do not go to law school unless you want to be a lawyer. Would you go to med school for the same reason? Get a phd? A master's in a hard science? Get an MBA, that's really the only graduate degree that's acceptable to get just because you don't know what to do.

You really like to put words in peoples mouths. And you just took that response out of context. My assumption was that people who are going to law school want to be lawyers, and I didn't say otherwise. I was responding to the "knowing you won't hate it" which is impossible, even if you really want to be a lawyer.

[Ohiobumpkin]

Please do not go to law school for this reason. Please. Just read any of these and try to find me a single one that encourages you to go to law school for this reason:

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid= ... 5.9115j0j9

Can you really ignore almost every single opinion written up by actual law students and lawyers? Do not go to law school unless you want to be a lawyer. Would you go to med school for the same reason? Get a phd? A master's in a hard science? Get an MBA, that's really the only graduate degree that's acceptable to get just because you don't know what to do.

+1. Seriously, what the heck are people thinking going to law school and not wanting to be an attorney?!?! Also, totally agree MBA is basically the only graduate level degree that is appropriate for those not sure where they want to work. But given how majority of MBA programs require on average 3-4 years of work experience to get admitted, I truly hope MBA students know what they want to do with their careers before attending.

[Troianii]

What about my criticisms? Because again, I think you're mostly arguing against a strawman, and also being overly positive. If you're looking at lifetime earnings for law school, you have to recognize that someone who doesn't go to law school - even if they do a "crap" humanities major - may well end up with decent lifetime earnings as well. And the lifetime earnings only come into play if someone can get a job as an attorney to begin with.

Yeah, but the issue is that those decent lifetime earnings for humanities majors can't create a median of 70k - the median is pretty darn low.

I think this is a wild generalization, and it doesn't make law school at cost the only alternative.

I get that you're less debt-averse than many people. But I also think a lot of people applying to law school don't really get what the debt means to their life. And I think saying that saying a school like BC is expensive but affordable is a little too cavalier about debt. It's $50k a year - that's a lot of money (plus living expenses - which you'd have to pay for anyway, but wouldn't be going into debt and paying interest on if you're working).

^_- really? You don't think it's accurate that the median starting salary for humanities majors is well below 70k? Maybe I phrased that poorly. My point is that when you weigh up the differences between expected income without law school vs. Expected income with, that more than makes up for the difference.

Again, on COL, it's inappropriate to throw that in WITH THE opportunity costs. It makes for really bad math.

[NoBladesNoBows]

[Troianii]

Holy straw man batman!

Yeah, has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I didn't say law school is for everyone, or that law school is good anywhere you go - I said that whether or not it is worth it depends on specific circumstances - bringing up a graph which has absolutely jack to do with ANY specific circumstances (nothing to do with someone's current employment prospects, region, intended law school etc.) proves absolutely nothing. Lumping Wisconsin together with Cooley is just as dumb as lumping Harvard with Cooley.

You said that there are plenty of well-paying entry level midlaw jobs. This graph directly disproves that. People here know what a strawman argument is, so throwing around claims of logical fallacy isn't going to mask the inaccuracy of what you're saying, especially when you apparently don't even know what it means.

No need to ad hom, bruh.

Someone needs to check their trust fund privilege...

Nice adhom, "bruh".
You apparently don't know what that is either, or you're a hypocrite. Oh wait...

take on their non-resident full tuition at a WHOPPING 22k/yr , and they come out with a burdensome mountain of 66k student debt

Someone needs to check their trust fund privilege...

LJL.

No one leaves law school with "opportunity costs" debt - you're not going to have to make payments on the money you didn't earn while in law school

You apparently don't understand what opportunity cost means. I'll try to make it simple for you:

Person A and B both have 100k in debt from law school. A has a job and is able to save 20k a year. B lives with parents and does nothing for 1 year, incurring no additional debt but no savings either (their debt would actually increase more than A due to interest, but that helps my argument so I'll ignore it to make it simpler). After 1 year B gets the same job as A and is able to start saving 20k a year. We will assume that neither A nor B has any changes in salary for the time periods that we are considering, even though A would likely get a raise before B if they are equally competent (again ignored for simplicity because it helps my argument). After 5 years Person A has no debt, and person B is still 20k in debt, effectively meaning that they took out a "bigger" loan. But wait they had the same debt to start and opportunity cost isn't a real thing so omg hw iz ths pssbl???

It is exactly the same as regular debt except it's "paid off" immediately rather than over time. It's a bit theoretical, so I get it if it's a little hard for you to understand.

I am impressed by your ability to dig a hole though.

It only disprove it if you consider "well paying" to be exclusively jobs starting at 150k+. I've said, over and over and over again, that "well paying" jobs aren't even close to paying that much.

The "trust fund" bit was a joke - pretty damn well over the top to be taken seriously. Are you actually getting defensive about that? It was in friendly jest and I thought over the top enough to not be confused for an insult.

[joeycxxxx09]

What's a better reason than not being able to find a job? If X can't find a job, why not do law school, when law school can potentially provide a good job. Especially with a small debt load, which mitigates the risk you're talking about by a good amount, I don't see what the problem is with that motivation. And now we need good reasons for being a lawyer? Such as?

I was responding to this, sorry I quoted the wrong post.

Please tell me what words I put into your mouth.

Once again, I'm assuming that these people want to be a lawyer, or at least have an interest in becoming a lawyer. And i didn't say otherwise. You're implying that I am advising to go to law school if you can't find a job and you don't have an interest in law. No, I am saying go to law school if you can't find a job assuming you have an interest in law.

[NoBladesNoBows]

[NoBladesNoBows]

[Danger Zone]

Lol

[joeycxxxx09]

What's a better reason than not being able to find a job? If X can't find a job, why not do law school, when law school can potentially provide a good job. Especially with a small debt load, which mitigates the risk you're talking about by a good amount, I don't see what the problem is with that motivation. And now we need good reasons for being a lawyer? Such as?

I was responding to this, sorry I quoted the wrong post.

Please tell me what words I put into your mouth.

Once again, I'm assuming that these people want to be a lawyer, or at least have an interest in becoming a lawyer. And i didn't say otherwise. You're implying that I am advising to go to law school if you can't find a job and you don't have an interest in law. No, I am saying go to law school if you can't find a job assuming you have an interest in law.

Do you read the things you write before you post them?

You're original response that I was responding to:

No one is saying that the above advice is always wrong. The problem here is that you're ignoring the motivations for going. These reasons are legitimate if you have good reasons for being a lawyer, but it still entails a lot of risk. That risk should only be assumed if you have a reason for going to law school better than not being able to find another job.

I'm assuming that these people want to be lawyers, and you're not. So your good reason for being a lawyer is wanting to be one????? That's what you were looking for? Oh, nice bro.

[Troianii]

Also not sure why I started being such an asshole about all this. I apologize and will cut it out with my own ad hom attacks. You're still very, very wrong though.

I'm pretty sure you've just misunderstood what I've said. Let's try it with a case in point: take someone who could earn 30k with their humanities degree. They go to BYU for three years - 22k/yr, and with the opportunity cost (assuming they get unpaid work interning in the summer), and that's 156k spent. Now their income before would have been 30k, they're now up easily (within reasonable expectation - not talking about the tiny fraction that are unemployed) earning 20k more than they did before (the median at BYU is a good deal more than 50k, but let's go with 50k as a reasonable expectation). 20k more, with 156k debt. Again, it'd take about 8yrs to break even. And this is a sub par example - that person obviously should have has SOME scholly, they could have been Mormon (damn idiot not being one), worked part time, etc.

Look I just don't see any reason for shit to get personal - when people get personal no confusion or misunderstanding is ever cleared up and, again, I'm pretty sure that you're misunderstanding what I'm saying based on counterexamples you've given, because they aren't really counterexamples to what I'm saying.

[joeycxxxx09]

I'd also like to add that you two are in the forum "Ask a Law Student / Graduate", not "Ask a 0L", so you really have no place to be giving advice in here anyway. Maybe that should tell you something?

I think you need to stop being so personal. You already called yourself an asshole once in this thread, and you're continuing to live up to the name. You're trying to start arguments about something I agree with

[Troianii]

I'd also like to add that you two are in the forum "Ask a Law Student / Graduate", not "Ask a 0L", so you really have no place to be giving advice in here anyway. Maybe that should tell you something?

Can i add that nothing substantial offered up by anyone here is something a 1L or grad would know better? I mean we've basically gone back and forth with sinple personal finance examples and graphs drawn up from the Internet - I hope I'm not going to learn graphs and personal finance in law school. -_- don't want to pay out the A for that.

[NoBladesNoBows]

[joeycxxxx09]

I'd also like to add that you two are in the forum "Ask a Law Student / Graduate", not "Ask a 0L", so you really have no place to be giving advice in here anyway. Maybe that should tell you something?

I think you need to stop being so personal. You already called yourself an asshole once in this thread, and you're continuing to live up to the name. You're trying to start arguments about something I agree with

For fallacious ad hominem attacks, not ones that are actually relevant due to your lack of credibility. That's what made me an asshole, not trying to explain to you what's wrong with your arguments.

I forgot about your credibility, anonymous forum poster. Tell me one thing that you have said on this forum that is insightful, that you have learned as a 1L, or that couldn't be said by another person with a wifi connection and access to google. And I think what is wrong with my argument is that you're not the one making it. I'm saying the exact same thing as you. I just didn't think that your "good reason" for going to law school would be wanting to go to law school. Because I made the assumption that these people want to go to law school.

[NoBladesNoBows]

[joeycxxxx09]

I'd also like to add that you two are in the forum "Ask a Law Student / Graduate", not "Ask a 0L", so you really have no place to be giving advice in here anyway. Maybe that should tell you something?

Can i add that nothing substantial offered up by anyone here is something a 1L or grad would know better? I mean we've basically gone back and forth with sinple personal finance examples and graphs drawn up from the Internet - I hope I'm not going to learn graphs and personal finance in law school. -_- don't want to pay out the A for that.

This is absolutely false because for us these considerations are not an abstract intellectual exercise, but actual concrete aspects of our lives. The fact that you can't recognize the value in that is further indicative of why you shouldn't be giving advice.

And if you consider that level of math difficult, have fun in contracts or any torts class with a professor that teaches from a law and economics perspective (as mine does).

I can see that this is futile though, so enjoy your blissful ignorance while it lasts. I'm not really trying to get through to either of you anyway, but rather hoping to make sure that any lurkers aren't being inundated with this nonsense.

The dark knight of TLS. He's the hero TLS deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight. HAHAHA get off your high horse!

[TLSModBot]

The only solution is for troianus and joeycocks here to go to some random law school at full sticker and SHOW US ALL.

[NoBladesNoBows]

[NoBladesNoBows]

[joeycxxxx09]

I'd also like to add that you two are in the forum "Ask a Law Student / Graduate", not "Ask a 0L", so you really have no place to be giving advice in here anyway. Maybe that should tell you something?

I think you need to stop being so personal. You already called yourself an asshole once in this thread, and you're continuing to live up to the name. You're trying to start arguments about something I agree with

For fallacious ad hominem attacks, not ones that are actually relevant due to your lack of credibility. That's what made me an asshole, not trying to explain to you what's wrong with your arguments.

I forgot about your credibility, anonymous forum poster. Tell me one thing that you have said on this forum that is insightful, that you have learned as a 1L, or that couldn't be said by another person with a wifi connection and access to google. And I think what is wrong with my argument is that you're not the one making it. I'm saying the exact same thing as you. I just didn't think that your "good reason" for going to law school would be wanting to go to law school. Because I made the assumption that these people want to go to law school.

For credentials, see last post. If your assumption that at least a well-founded desire to go to law school is a minimum, then no we don't disagree. Please go back and look at your posts before my initial response to you though, and note that you do not state that as an assumption once, and your question of "now we need good reasons?" implied that you didn't. I can't read your mind.

You're right, you can't read my mind. Which is why for the last 10 posts I have been telling you the assumption I was making when I responded.

[NoBladesNoBows]

[Clearly]

Bimodal salary distribution of lawyers, Google it. These mid law jobs don't really exist.