Why do people go to law school? Forum

[prezidentv8]

Montana's 16th District

I would be super jazzed if Montana was actually divided into 16 or more districts, because LOL

It goes up to 22.

LOL wat why?! California has literally six. Must be real hard to get from Fergus County to Lewis and Clark County.

[Learn_Live_Hope]

IMO, much of PI is a great gig as long as you (1) have family money (SO or parents) or (2) don't need to be rich; you plan for it ahead of time and solely dedicate your resume to one area of PI, preferably at an agency/org that will be able to hire people when you graduate; and you don't take out tons of loans like a retaahhd.

Absolutely rule 1. Have great stats to leverage your tuition to nearly zero. If you can’t do that, keep walking… be a doctor, join the armed services, be a pharmaceutical salesman, etc.

The vast majority of law students don't have the credentials or intellectual stamina to become a doctor.

I hope you were joking.

P.S. Not everyone wants to be a doctor.

[Learn_Live_Hope]

The stereotypes in this thread…

[sideroxylon]

The stereotypes in this thread…

please tell us about how smart you are and what you're going to accomplish upon graduation

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

Montana's 16th District

I would be super jazzed if Montana was actually divided into 16 or more districts, because LOL

It goes up to 22.

He probably meant federal districts.

No, I meant state districts (because they're called district courts and not "superior courts" in Montana) - federal districts are still Article III, and there is enough of a scramble for AIII clerkships that I honestly think the "average" clerk in such a position is very smart.

[prezidentv8]

I would be super jazzed if Montana was actually divided into 16 or more districts, because LOL

It goes up to 22.

He probably meant federal districts.

No, I meant state districts (because they're called district courts and not "superior courts" in Montana) - federal districts are still Article III, and there is enough of a scramble for AIII clerkships that I honestly think the "average" clerk in such a position is very smart.

AHHHH nvm then, I had assumed these were the appeals courts.

[WhiskeynCoke]

I think the fact that you can get into an elite law school with sub 3.0 GPA though is kind of telling. Law school and MBA are the easiest grad programs to get into

I don't think the correlation between intelligence and UGPA is nearly as strong as you think it is.

It's not telling at all. Look at all these 3.8XX, 155 posts

once again, LSAT as measure of intelligence is also flawed.

I think it works decently at the extremes. You gonna really say that you wouldn't treat a 180 on the LSAT (like under 20 per year do this) as a stronger indication of intelligence than a 4.0 GPA?

4.0 GPA, 140
v.
2.5 GPA, 180.

If you had to bet $100 on who would is "smarter" (whatever that means), who would you bet on? I'm pretty sure who most people would bet on.

[objctnyrhnr]

the LSAT is a great measure of critical reasoning-type intelligence. while, of course, critical reasoning is not nearly the whole of intelligence, anybody who says the lsat is not at least a decent measure of the intelligence probably just didn't do well on it and it makes them sad...and it's easier to hate on a test than it is to hate on yourself.

[tomwatts]

the LSAT is a great measure of critical reasoning-type intelligence. while, of course, critical reasoning is not nearly the whole of intelligence, anybody who says the lsat is not at least a decent measure of the intelligence probably just didn't do well on it and it makes them sad...and it's easier to hate on a test than it is to hate on yourself.

If the LSAT measures intelligence, then I used to make my students a whole crapton smarter in just a couple of months.

[thebarcaneatme]

because entitled babies cry when they have to both force out a poop and be expected to wipe themselves when done

[objctnyrhnr]

the LSAT is a great measure of critical reasoning-type intelligence. while, of course, critical reasoning is not nearly the whole of intelligence, anybody who says the lsat is not at least a decent measure of the intelligence probably just didn't do well on it and it makes them sad...and it's easier to hate on a test than it is to hate on yourself.

If the LSAT measures intelligence, then I used to make my students a whole crapton smarter in just a couple of months.

A big part of what many consider to be intelligence is being able to learn an intellectual skill reasonably quickly and to a level of proficiency. In fact, many would even broaden this to non-intellectual activities as well (ie athletic intelligence).

For example, if I am a great soccer/basketball/whatever player, chances are that I am athletic. Does the fact that I am not awesome at lacrosse the second I step on a field/pick up a stick mean I am not athletic? Of course not. The more athletic a person is, the faster they will be able to pick up this new sport/skill/whatever and do it in a proficient way. An athletic person will be able to get better at lacrosse than a nonathletic person, and the athletic person will be able to get "good" faster than a non-athletic person...assuming they both start training at the same time.

Same with LSAT--none of us achieve our potential the first time we sit down to take a test. The indicator of our intelligence is (1) how quickly we learn how to do well at this test, and (2) what our ultimate LSAT potential actually is following our training.

Anybody who engages in the whole "lsat is a learnable test. therefore it can't demonstrate intelligence" is just wrong. Like yeah--let's just all never train to do anything and deem our ultimate skill at any specific task (intellectual or non intellectual) to be the skill that we demonstrate when we do it the first time. Did great mathematicians come out of the womb knowing calculus? of course not.

[JCougar]

the LSAT is a great measure of critical reasoning-type intelligence. while, of course, critical reasoning is not nearly the whole of intelligence, anybody who says the lsat is not at least a decent measure of the intelligence probably just didn't do well on it and it makes them sad...and it's easier to hate on a test than it is to hate on yourself.

Yeah, the LSAT measures a somewhat narrow band of intelligence, but it's a test that has been professionally developed and validated. The scores actually measure a sustainable skill, which can lend a significant (but not overwhelming) amount of predictability to a certain outcome.

GPA simply hasn't been shown to do that in any significant manner.

But yeah, if you take a regular IQ test, you're going to get a far more diverse array of questions, giving a far more robust measure of intelligence. This is not to say that IQ tests don't have their own flaws and limitations as well, but measures of IQ have also been shown to be reliable, valid, and somewhat robust.

[JCougar]

Anybody who engages in the whole "lsat is a learnable test. therefore it can't demonstrate intelligence" is just wrong. Like yeah--let's just all never train to do anything and deem our ultimate skill at any specific task (intellectual or non intellectual) to be the skill that we demonstrate when we do it the first time. Did great mathematicians come out of the womb knowing calculus? of course not.

It's not a perfect measure of intelligence, because, by definition, intelligence can't be learned. Yet parts of the LSAT (the logic games in particular) most definitely can be learned. Intelligence probably helps you out in this regard.

It's safe to say that what the LSAT probably measures is intelligence co-mingled with a learnable skill at the same time. Although I don't really think it was intended to be developed as a measure of a learnable skill...that was probably an unintended side-effect that test prep companies have figured out how to exploit. But in that sense, it probably also partially measures work ethic and character traits like conscientious preparation...since those with this trait will take the effort to prepare and practice even though the CW is that you can't learn the LSAT. But that's not all that bad if you're trying to predict who will do well in law school and who is most likely to pass the bar.

[jingosaur]

The stereotypes in this thread…

Don't you know that every profession EXCEPT for law is doing great right now? Law is the only profession that has taken a downward spiral.

[84651846190]

The stereotypes in this thread…

Don't you know that every profession EXCEPT for law is doing great right now? Law is the only profession that has taken a downward spiral.

No, just health care.

[thebarcaneatme]

The stereotypes in this thread…

1. Pretty much everyone (reading comprehension)
2. Yes they do. I don't trust you to operate an elevator if you haven't.

[LRGhost]

i went to law school bc idk

[Young Marino]

Seems like a lot of people here went biglaw or bust and weren't satisfied regardless of outcome?

[LRGhost]

Seems like a lot of people here went biglaw or bust and weren't satisfied regardless of outcome?

there is no joy in mudville

life is a piece of shit

[dowu]

I work directly with attorneys every single day and have been for the past 7 years. I still don't think it's a bad gig. It's better than a lot of shit actually.

[Young Marino]

Seems like a lot of people here went biglaw or bust and weren't satisfied regardless of outcome?

there is no joy in mudville

life is a piece of shit

Well when you're going to a t14/tier 1 and spending upwards of $250k before interest, you're almost forced to go biglaw and hate your life for a number of years. I don't know if I can think of a worse fate. Maybe that of a TTTT grad in six figure debt working at a minimum wage job because they had no idea what they were getting themselves into. But at least then you know you're a failure and the pressure to actually pay back your loans to uncle sam isn't apparent because you know you'll never make enough for it to happen so you're just accepting default, forgetting about buying a house or leasing a car and getting used to the shitty credit score that makes hoodlums feel good about themselves. Sounds like a lot of people ITT fit into one of these two categories.

[LRGhost]

Seems like a lot of people here went biglaw or bust and weren't satisfied regardless of outcome?

there is no joy in mudville

life is a piece of shit

Well when you're going to a t14/tier 1 and spending upwards of $250k before interest, you're almost forced to go biglaw and hate your life for a number of years. I don't know if I can think of a worse fate. Maybe that of a TTTT grad in six figure debt working at a minimum wage job because they had no idea what they were getting themselves into. But at least then you know you're a failure and the pressure to actually pay back your loans to uncle sam isn't apparent because you know you'll never make enough for it to happen so you're just accepting default, forgetting about buying a house or leasing a car and getting used to the shitty credit score that makes hoodlums feel good about themselves. Sounds like a lot of people ITT fit into one of these two categories.

You should go to counseling.

[Young Marino]

Seems like a lot of people here went biglaw or bust and weren't satisfied regardless of outcome?

there is no joy in mudville

life is a piece of shit

Well when you're going to a t14/tier 1 and spending upwards of $250k before interest, you're almost forced to go biglaw and hate your life for a number of years. I don't know if I can think of a worse fate. Maybe that of a TTTT grad in six figure debt working at a minimum wage job because they had no idea what they were getting themselves into. But at least then you know you're a failure and the pressure to actually pay back your loans to uncle sam isn't apparent because you know you'll never make enough for it to happen so you're just accepting default, forgetting about buying a house or leasing a car and getting used to the shitty credit score that makes hoodlums feel good about themselves. Sounds like a lot of people ITT fit into one of these two categories.

You should go to counseling.

Lol uhh I'm not borrowing close to six figures to attend law school? If I was though I'd feel like shit.

[LRGhost]

The fact that you think going to a bad school makes someone a failure as a person will only lead to disappointment in your life. Seriously. Seek help now.

I mean, there are other extremely disturbing judgments in that post but we can just go one by one right now. You're also the kid who is going to go to a shitty school with no real plan for success and who doesn't want to retake the LSAT. Maybe this is the pot feeling like it has to be better than the kettle?

Also, don't forget, almost all law is failure. Sincerely and truly, from the bottom of what was once a heart, hope that helps.

[Young Marino]

The fact that you think going to a bad school makes someone a failure as a person will only lead to disappointment in your life. Seriously. Seek help now.

I mean, there are other extremely disturbing judgments in that post but we can just go one by one right now. You're also the kid who is going to go to a shitty school with no real plan for success and who doesn't want to retake the LSAT. Maybe this is the pot feeling like it has to be better than the kettle?

Also, don't forget, almost all law is failure. Sincerely and truly, from the bottom of what was once a heart, hope that helps.

Lol you sound like the one who needs counseling friend. I never said going to a "bad school" is terrible. Is it stupid to pay $250k for a legal education? Yes. Makes it stupider when you go to a TTTT in Arizona when you're from Wyoming and want to work in NYC. Now if you tell me you're going to a small TTTT in Georgia and you are from the area and want to work there at a small firm full of that TTTTs grads, it's not stupid. Especially if you get scholly $$$. But the biglaw or bust prospective student doesn't see it that way.