How difficult to make top 10% at T4? Forum

[timmyd]

It's hard to get top 10% anywhere. Anyone that thinks differently should test their theory and let us know how it turns out.

[mephistopheles]

no. there is a lot to be said for being the big fish in a small pond, you're just killing your chances at having a serious chance at more than a very select few regional employers.

[Ohiobumpkin]

While it's true that OP could retake and kill the LSAT, I don't think I am willing to recommend him/her going to law school. A terrible LSAT score with a sub-par 3.0 GPA indicates somebody who might not be able to handle both law school and actual legal practice. I think I am joining the growing chorus here in recommending OP stay away from law school. Good luck finding your way OP.

[Louis1127]

Well you and I are certainly on different pages.

1) Sorry, did I say that the OP can only improve his score by 1-2 points?
2) Are law schools NOT number whores?
3) It's a lose-lose on the 145 LSAT score. Either the OP is the type of person who thought it'd be a good idea to apply to law school with an ice-cold 1st time LSAT and got a 145 or the OP studied and got a 145. Either way - that person should not be a lawyer.
4) I had no idea that 2.6 GPA, 160 LSAT applicants got full rides with no stips. That doesn't sound right. Scammy, for-profit law schools don't offer zero-stip scholarships. I'd like a cite - even anecdotal.
5) A full ride TTT still only offers a 20-30% chance at long-term JD employment. Shitty long-term JD employment at that.
6) Let's string along the what-if's here. You say the OP should retake for a higher score - a much higher score. 20 points higher. That's a big if. You want the OP to get a full ride. That's an even bigger if. Then the OP has to graduate in the top third of his/her class for even a shot at a job. There's another big if.

Let's just say the chances of improving his/her LSAT by 20 points is a GENEROUS 50% shot. Then let's say it's another 50/50 on if he gets significant zero-stip scholly money. 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/3 = 8.3% chance the OP comes out with a 40-60k/year job.

More realistic probabilities would be 10% chance the LSATs jump that many points, 10% chance at meaningful $$$ scholly with stips, and only the top quartile get long-term employment out of a TTT. .1*[.1*(.5*.75*.75)]*.25 = 0.7% chance the OP comes out with a 60k/year job.

(The .5*.75*.75 is the likelihood OP maintains the stips. Gave the benefit of the doubt that it's 50/50 first year and higher probabilities keeping the scholly the 2nd and 3rd years).

I'm sticking with irredeemable. OP should try getting a real estate license or something.

Eh, I don't think we're disagreeing as much as our tone makes it sound like we are, but there are a few things that we do disagree on.

1. True, you did not say that exactly, but you did say that a 143 is unredeemable (and once again we don't know if this was totally cold, or after two years of studying).

2. They are indeed- that's my point. If OP retakes and gets a 160, they aren't going to care about his/her 143. They just care about the 160 because they are indeed numbers whores.

3. I totally agree that a 145 on the LSAT (and not retaking, just applying with the 145) is a really, really bad move. But I disagree with your last statement. If OP were to study and increase his/her score by, say 20 points (I know that's not probable but this is a hypothetical), then I would say, as a URM w/ a 163, some decent option *may* open up for him/her. Applicant numbers will likely once again be way down this year, based on the number of June LSAT takers.

4. I'll forgive you on this one (haha). A local TTT dean of admissions said at a career day fair that anything above a 160 with a anything above a 2.5 gets full tuition with a stipulation of being in the top 2/3 of one's class to retain it (I realize that's not zero, but it's a decent stip). The school's median LSAT is 150 (and no, it's not in Mississippi). Now I know you're thinking "Well it's probably a school that has bad employment outcomes", and it is. But if someone who is going to practice law with Mom/Dad in his/her hometown and has a guaranteed job after graduation, it's a good option.

5. In most cases you are right. But hypotheticals like the one I described above do not conform to your idea. And there are probably more situations like the one I described above where I live than where you live, as nepotism is probably more prevalent in my area and everybody hates change in my area. (Quick little funny story w/ no relevance: sometimes politicians will have sons named after them and the dad will retire and his son will run for the seat and just use the same yard signs and stuff, so people will just think they are voting for the same person. Anyway that's not relevant).

6. I'm glad we're having this discussion. One of my main points is that it's worth to try to improve the LSAT to get a full ride or perhaps sneak into a T14 w/ a mid-160s score if the OP is a URM, which a previous post may indicate that he/she is.

I like you quantifying those chances, and it helps me see that those chances aren't exactly rosy. The only thing I would add to your analysis (which once again is helpful!) is that OP *may* be a URM, which throws a wrench into things, and that we just don't know what may happen with applicant numbers (they could keep plummeting) and that would also throw a wrench into things.

But I still think that your statement that a 143 is unredeemable went a little bit too far and is untrue.

[Mal Reynolds]

It's not difficult. Everyone can do it!

[Young Marino]

Attending a t4 isn't the worst decision in the world if your goals fit into small law, local DA/PD office or solo practice (hopefully not right out of school) and you can go for a reasonable price... I know of a few t4 schools in a few states that place just as well as t2/t1 schools in the same state. However, that is more the exception to the rule. It is a ridiculous idea to go to a school without the intention of graduating from there and even more ridiculous to think you will get top ten percent because you were the man back in high school or college or whatever. With a gpa like 2.6 your options are extremely limited. You will need to break 160 just to have a shot at TTTT scholly money/admittance into a tier 2.