Top 5 Student at T14 Taking Questions Forum

[NYULawStudent123]

Does upper mena 10-14 range or 1-6 range? #strangequestions

You can easily find what school he goes to by checking his history. Stop being a lazy fuck when it doesn't really matter.

You might want to chill out. It's summer. No need to be so angry.

[cws277]

out of curiousity, how do you take notes? i've never used OneNote or anything similar; I prefer handwritten notes/outlines since I just seem to blank out after typing shit.

i know someone in op's position at a t14 who hand-wrote his notes.

just do you.

I have no idea what my class rank is, but I did well (high Kent) at CLS this past year. Took all notes by hand in the fall and never opened a computer in class. Took computer notes/dicked around on Facebook in the spring. My notes were better from the spring, but my recall was stronger from the fall. Balanced out. Got same grades on balance both semesters, but I was much happier in the spring having something to distract me from boring classes.

[foundingfather]

out of curiousity, how do you take notes? i've never used OneNote or anything similar; I prefer handwritten notes/outlines since I just seem to blank out after typing shit.

i know someone in op's position at a t14 who hand-wrote his notes.

just do you.

I have no idea what my class rank is, but I did well (high Kent) at CLS this past year. Took all notes by hand in the fall and never opened a computer in class. Took computer notes/dicked around on Facebook in the spring. My notes were better from the spring, but my recall was stronger from the fall. Balanced out. Got same grades on balance both semesters, but I was much happier in the spring having something to distract me from boring classes.

thanks guys

[racejudicata15]

I leave you guys alone for a few hours, and you all devolve into this debate about whether or not need you need to work this hard. I’m going to say my piece, and then hopefully we can end this conversation for now.

I’ve said it before; I’ll say it again: you don’t have to work as hard as me. For your own sanity, you probably shouldn’t work as hard as me. I could work significantly less and probably still do well. I’d probably still be in the top 10% (that's total conjecture; I just made that number up). But without working this hard, I probably wouldn’t be close to #1 overall.

To address the social life/work balance: it is true, I don’t really have that much of a social life during law school. I hang out and talk to friends during law school, and I do have a very understanding SO. But it’s my choice not to have that social life. I could have one if I want to. For example, this summer, I am having a blast. I go out multiple nights a week; I hang out with people on the weekends. I am choosing to do that. I could choose to do that during the school year, but then I couldn’t guarantee my grades. And to the extent it matters, I really like the law and learning the law. It’s not like I hate every moment I am working, so it is easier for me to work that hard.

[racejudicata15]

Thanks for doing this!

You mentioned a study partner who had the material down cold, but ended up around median for that particular class. You've consistently placed at the top of your classes, however. What do you think made the difference between you and her? Trying to figure out exactly what sorts of things a professor might want to see, a writing approach during the test, etc.?

This is a question I ponder. I really don’t know why my friend didn't do as well me. If I am being completely honest, I think that there is some innate skill involved. I am just good at issue spotting. It comes naturally to me; I didn’t really have to learn it. It actually turns out to be a problem during work, as I issue spot all these tangential issues that really don’t matter in the real world. I also have a fast typing speed. So I am able to spot a ton of issues and I have time to mention them for at least a brief period.

[racejudicata15]

I wouldn't get too fixated on the 5am to 10pm thing. I think it's generally true that as you go from top 10% to top 5% to top 5 people, you find a higher proportion of people who work a lot and read the cases carefully. E.g. If you recognize that a fact pattern on an exam poses an issue left open in a case you studied, that kind of thing separates A exams from A+ exams. However, my educated guess is that OP's work hours are unusual even for students in the top 5. You can read and brief every case and do several iterations of our outlines on a reasonable 9-7 sort of schedule (or 2 pm to midnight as the case may be!)

But at the same time, I see no reason to criticize OP's work hours. Do what works for you.

I just have an anecdote about rayiner’s response. This actually happened in one of my exams. The “policy” question on one of my exams was literally the issue expressly reserved in a case we had read that semester. I flipped open my super detailed notes on that case and basically copied down the dissent. I got the highest grade in the class, and my professor told me that that question was the “sorting mechanism” for the curve. This has only happened to me once, but I guess it shows that attention to detail in cases sometimes can make a big difference.

[racejudicata15]

out of curiousity, how do you take notes? i've never used OneNote or anything similar; I prefer handwritten notes/outlines since I just seem to blank out after typing shit.

i know someone in op's position at a t14 who hand-wrote his notes.

just do you.

I agree; just do you. I know a lot of people who prefer handwriting. In contrast, I HATE handwriting my notes. I’d prefer to type. However, a lot of my classes banned laptops, so I often hand wrote notes as well. I really don’t how much correlation there is here, but ¾ of the classes that I have booked were classes in which I was allowed to type during class.

[Power_of_Facing]

If you had to identify one over-the-top study habit of yours -- e.g. making triplicate outlines for each class, taking every practice exam you can get your paws on, CALI, LEEWs (whatever those acronyms stand for) -- as most vital to your success, which one would it be and why?

[rayiner]

Studies show that hand written notes are better for retaining information. So that's not surprising. In terms of time-consuming things that may or may not help: I found it useful to do multiple stages of outlines. Start at around 100-150 pages of pretty stream of consciousness reading notes, then do a 50 page outline, then a 10 page summary outline, then a 1-2 page checklist. The goal is to be able to read the checklist and use that as a cue to recall what's in your book notes.

[NYULawStudent123]

Studies show that hand written notes are better for retaining information. So that's not surprising. In terms of time-consuming things that may or may not help: I found it useful to do multiple stages of outlines. Start at around 100-150 pages of pretty stream of consciousness reading notes, then do a 50 page outline, then a 10 page summary outline, then a 1-2 page checklist. The goal is to be able to read the checklist and use that as a cue to recall what's in your book notes.

Just an FYI: Doing that many rounds of outlining is normally not productive. 100-150 pages of an outline will for most people not be worth it. Try to stick to one 30-70 page outline and one 5-15 page attack. You could make a small checklist from your attack.

[rayiner]

Studies show that hand written notes are better for retaining information. So that's not surprising. In terms of time-consuming things that may or may not help: I found it useful to do multiple stages of outlines. Start at around 100-150 pages of pretty stream of consciousness reading notes, then do a 50 page outline, then a 10 page summary outline, then a 1-2 page checklist. The goal is to be able to read the checklist and use that as a cue to recall what's in your book notes.

Just an FYI: Doing that many rounds of outlining is normally not productive. 100-150 pages of an outline will for most people not be worth it. Try to stick to one 30-70 page outline and one 5-15 page attack. You could make a small checklist from you attack.

I think everyone should do what you suggest 1L. If that nets you A's, but not A+ or DS, and you want to gun 2L/3L in clerkship courses, you may need to do something more time consuming. The process of iteratively cutting down a big outline helps you memorize not just the black letter law, but other information that might put you over the top. Or it might be a big waste of time. YMMV.

[jbagelboy]

I can basically ditto cws, switched from hand written to typed for spring semester (except my no laptops class), same set of top grades. My only lower grade was in the fall, entirely hand written and the idiosyncratic result had nothing to do with my note taking or study habits. Do what feels right

Moreover, 1L is a huge drag and if you want to do well you have to try, but within reason. I made vast sacrifices to my social life and wellbeing in the last 6 weeks of each semester, but still went out a lot the first few months and would try to relax where I could even during finals.

[emu42]

Holy moly! 17 hour days?! Would you consider yourself a great writer or logician, or more generally someone who is naturally very smart? Have you chosen certain electives that are easier so as to increase your GPA? Do you ever think to yourself, "Wow, this [amazing] GPA is a wonderful accomplishment, but is it truly worth it?" Do you find your classes/the study of law immensely interesting? And I think you said you were a splitter earlier in this thread--what happened in undergrad? Congrats, though

[racejudicata15]

Holy moly! 17 hour days?! Would you consider yourself a great writer or logician, or more generally someone who is naturally very smart? Have you chosen certain electives that are easier so as to increase your GPA? Do you ever think to yourself, "Wow, this [amazing] GPA is a wonderful accomplishment, but is it truly worth it?" Do you find your classes/the study of law immensely interesting? And I think you said you were a splitter earlier in this thread--what happened in undergrad? Congrats, though

I'm actually a reverse splitter, which means I had a high undergrad GPA and a low LSAT score. Being a reverse splitter is the best kind of splitter IMHO because judges never ask for your LSAT score, but they frequently ask for your undergrad grades.

I do find my classes and the study of law immensely interesting. I will talk about the law all day every day if people don't shut me up.

I have not chosen certain electives to boost my GPA. All of my highest grades have come from doctrinal classes. I've actually only taken one seminar.

I never think to myself that my GPA is not worth it. It opens so many doors. But, in case you haven't noticed, I'm also partially insane.

[racejudicata15]

If you had to identify one over-the-top study habit of yours -- e.g. making triplicate outlines for each class, taking every practice exam you can get your paws on, CALI, LEEWs (whatever those acronyms stand for) -- as most vital to your success, which one would it be and why?

Oooh, this is a great question.

I'm going to cheat and say it is a tie between outlining and taking practice exams. I have no freakin' clue what is going on in any of my classes until I have made my first outline. You learn everything so quickly and from disparate sources (casebook, class notes, supplements) that I find it is a waste of time to even try to understand it until I start outlining. Doing the second and third round of outlining is usually fairly quick and easy once I have my master outline done. And, as someone stated earlier in this thread, re-outlining is a great way to make sure you retain the material.

Taking practice is exams is absolutely necessary. You don't have to take as many as you can get your hands on, but you should take several. First, taking practice exams is a great way to initially learn the law and later double check that you actually understand how the law works. This is pounded over and over on TLS, but just "knowing" the law is never enough. (I actually hate the term "knowing the law." Knowing what federal rule of evidence 404 says is not knowing the law. That's memorizing. Knowing the law is understanding how 404 plays out in the real world. Not everyone at a T14 knows the law going into the exam because they don't know how to apply it. But I digress). Second, taking practice exams is a great way to get inside your professor's head. My crimpro professor had like 10 practice exams available. By like the fifth exam, I realized that there was going to be a car that was searched on my exam. So, I made sure I knew all the ways the cops can search a car without a warrant. And sure enough, there was a car on my exam. Easy points. Finally, taking practice exams saves time. Once I've struggled through an issue and written about it in a practice exam, I have like a mini-paragraph saved in my head. For example, I know exactly what I am going to type if I spot a 2-207 issue on my exam. It saves me time on the exam because I don't have to think about what I will say; I already just know.

[And, btw, CALI is an free online resource that lets you take mini-online lessons with multiple choice and essay questions in doctrinal subject matters. The quality varies depending on the topic and the author. For example, the civpro CALI lessons are awful. LEEWS is a course/instructional tape on how to take law school exams.]

[emu42]

Holy moly! 17 hour days?! Would you consider yourself a great writer or logician, or more generally someone who is naturally very smart? Have you chosen certain electives that are easier so as to increase your GPA? Do you ever think to yourself, "Wow, this [amazing] GPA is a wonderful accomplishment, but is it truly worth it?" Do you find your classes/the study of law immensely interesting? And I think you said you were a splitter earlier in this thread--what happened in undergrad? Congrats, though

I'm actually a reverse splitter, which means I had a high undergrad GPA and a low LSAT score. Being a reverse splitter is the best kind of splitter IMHO because judges never ask for your LSAT score, but they frequently ask for your undergrad grades.

I do find my classes and the study of law immensely interesting. I will talk about the law all day every day if people don't shut me up.

I have not chosen certain electives to boost my GPA. All of my highest grades have come from doctrinal classes. I've actually only taken one seminar.

I never think to myself that my GPA is not worth it. It opens so many doors. But, in case you haven't noticed, I'm also partially insane.

Thanks for responding. Guess I misread the splitter bit. You would recommend these CALI/LEEWS things?

[Power_of_Facing]

If you had to identify one over-the-top study habit of yours -- e.g. making triplicate outlines for each class, taking every practice exam you can get your paws on, CALI, LEEWs (whatever those acronyms stand for) -- as most vital to your success, which one would it be and why?

Oooh, this is a great question.

I'm going to cheat and say it is a tie between outlining and taking practice exams. I have no freakin' clue what is going on in any of my classes until I have made my first outline. You learn everything so quickly and from disparate sources (casebook, class notes, supplements) that I find it is a waste of time to even try to understand it until I start outlining. Doing the second and third round of outlining is usually fairly quick and easy once I have my master outline done. And, as someone stated earlier in this thread, re-outlining is a great way to make sure you retain the material.

Taking practice is exams is absolutely necessary. You don't have to take as many as you can get your hands on, but you should take several. First, taking practice exams is a great way to initially learn the law and later double check that you actually understand how the law works. This is pounded over and over on TLS, but just "knowing" the law is never enough. (I actually hate the term "knowing the law." Knowing what federal rule of evidence 404 says is not knowing the law. That's memorizing. Knowing the law is understanding how 404 plays out in the real world. Not everyone at a T14 knows the law going into the exam because they don't know how to apply it. But I digress). Second, taking practice exams is a great way to get inside your professor's head. My crimpro professor had like 10 practice exams available. By like the fifth exam, I realized that there was going to be a car that was searched on my exam. So, I made sure I knew all the ways the cops can search a car without a warrant. And sure enough, there was a car on my exam. Easy points. Finally, taking practice exams saves time. Once I've struggled through an issue and written about it in a practice exam, I have like a mini-paragraph saved in my head. For example, I know exactly what I am going to type if I spot a 2-207 issue on my exam. It saves me time on the exam because I don't have to think about what I will say; I already just know.

[And, btw, CALI is an free online resource that lets you take mini-online lessons with multiple choice and essay questions in doctrinal subject matters. The quality varies depending on the topic and the author. For example, the civpro CALI lessons are awful. LEEWS is a course/instructional tape on how to take law school exams.]

Thanks.

Follow-up questions: When in your maiden 1L term did you start the outlining and the taking of practice exams? What were your reasons for beginning these processes when you did?

What strategic changes to your study methods did you make (if any) between 1L terms? between 1L and 2L years?

[d cooper]

I asked this earlier, but I think it got lost in the top 20% rationalizing their social lives.

You mentioned doing LEEWS as a 0L. Did you use that method on exams? Do you feel it helped?

[canoe]

Thanks for taking questions OP.

Would you say being able to write well is necessary to place in the top 1-3%? My English is fine but I don't think I'm a talented writer. If two students both spot every single issue but one writes more eloquently than the other, would this make a difference in the resulting grades? Or is this a professor-dependent thing.

[DebtAverse]

Great thread! I have heard a few people say that grades don't really matter for PI law. Have you found that your excellent grades have afforded you more PI opportunities than you might have had otherwise? Thanks!

[jbagelboy]

Thanks for taking questions OP.

Would you say being able to write well is necessary to place in the top 1-3%? My English is fine but I don't think I'm a talented writer. If two students both spot every single issue but one writes more eloquently than the other, would this make a difference in the resulting grades? Or is this a professor-dependent thing.

You don't need to be james joyce, but you need a very solid, fluent, concise style. It also depends on the school; if you're at a T14, then yea, everyone around you is by default a pretty strong writer and the elegance/readability of your prose will impact your evaluation. I've been told this is less true at regional schools but probably still relevant. My Crim and Property profs both admitted that they will be more naturally inclined to give an above median grade to a paper that's easy to read and "clever", and when comparing two papers with equal issue spotting and analysis the better writer will win out. It won't overcome shitty legal analysis, but strong command of English and excellent prose feature as important skills for an attorney, essential to the academy, and thus will impact your 1L grades.

Again this doesn't mean you need to be a poet. Quite the opposite: effective legal writing requires a particular set of skills, but it does overlap heavily with strong writing generally (active voice, articulate diction, no grammatical/syntax errors).

[Power_of_Facing]

Re:

Thanks for taking questions OP.

Would you say being able to write well is necessary to place in the top 1-3%? My English is fine but I don't think I'm a talented writer. If two students both spot every single issue but one writes more eloquently than the other, would this make a difference in the resulting grades? Or is this a professor-dependent thing.

You don't need to be james joyce

"The fall (bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthur — nuk!) of a once wallstrait oldparr is retaled early in bed and later on life down through all christian minstrelsy. The great fall of the offwall entailed at such short notice the pftjschute of Finnegan, erse solid man, that the humptyhillhead of humself prumptly sends an unquiring one well to the west in quest of his tumptytumtoes: and their upturnpikepointandplace is at the knock out in the park where oranges have been laid to rust upon the green since dev-linsfirst loved livvy."

James Joyce, Finnegans Wake

Also, I'll try to dig up Desert Fox's post of an "A" exam at a T14. For now, know that it is a pretty telling example of how writing style/skill can be utterly secondary to the legal analysis (for grading purposes).

[t-14orbust]

Re:

Thanks for taking questions OP.

Would you say being able to write well is necessary to place in the top 1-3%? My English is fine but I don't think I'm a talented writer. If two students both spot every single issue but one writes more eloquently than the other, would this make a difference in the resulting grades? Or is this a professor-dependent thing.

You don't need to be james joyce

"The fall (bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthur — nuk!) of a once wallstrait oldparr is retaled early in bed and later on life down through all christian minstrelsy. The great fall of the offwall entailed at such short notice the pftjschute of Finnegan, erse solid man, that the humptyhillhead of humself prumptly sends an unquiring one well to the west in quest of his tumptytumtoes: and their upturnpikepointandplace is at the knock out in the park where oranges have been laid to rust upon the green since dev-linsfirst loved livvy."

James Joyce, Finnegans Wake

Also, I'll try to dig up Desert Fox's post of an "A" exam at a T14. For now, know that it is a pretty telling example of how writing style/skill can be utterly secondary to the legal analysis (for grading purposes).

What did I just read

[Power_of_Facing]

Re:

Thanks for taking questions OP.

Would you say being able to write well is necessary to place in the top 1-3%? My English is fine but I don't think I'm a talented writer. If two students both spot every single issue but one writes more eloquently than the other, would this make a difference in the resulting grades? Or is this a professor-dependent thing.

You don't need to be james joyce

"The fall (bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthur — nuk!) of a once wallstrait oldparr is retaled early in bed and later on life down through all christian minstrelsy. The great fall of the offwall entailed at such short notice the pftjschute of Finnegan, erse solid man, that the humptyhillhead of humself prumptly sends an unquiring one well to the west in quest of his tumptytumtoes: and their upturnpikepointandplace is at the knock out in the park where oranges have been laid to rust upon the green since dev-linsfirst loved livvy."

James Joyce, Finnegans Wake

Also, I'll try to dig up Desert Fox's post of an "A" exam at a T14. For now, know that it is a pretty telling example of how writing style/skill can be utterly secondary to the legal analysis (for grading purposes).

What did I just read

A hallmark of the Western Canon.

[throwaway186]

Also, I'll try to dig up Desert Fox's post of an "A" exam at a T14. For now, know that it is a pretty telling example of how writing style/skill can be utterly secondary to the legal analysis (for grading purposes).

I would be happy to share some of mine. Potential #1 in my class at CCN. I'm not sure which way my exams point w/r/t whether good writing matters for law school exam grading. Let me know if there is interest and I'll put them in a pastebin or something.

One thing I'll emphasize, though - in my view, it's much more important to write clearly than to write "well". An exam that's hard to understand makes the reader think that the writer doesn't under the material. Further, you lose points when you write unintelligibly, because readers may not recognize that you are making a particular point. Focus more on writing crisp sentences and well-organized paragraphs than making masterpieces of the English language.