Naive Question about Student Debt Forum

[dresden doll]

And sub-$1000 rent is possible in Manhattan, but only in Harlem and only in a 3 or 4 bedroom apartment.

I knew two people at CLS who shared an apt for a smidgeon under 2k, which works out to a little less than 1k per person. It was a law school-subsidized housing, however.

[ymmv]

TBF people whose parent subsidize school probably don't cut them off immediately at grad. Hell I'm married w a kid and I still don't pay my cell phone bill

This seems to be the norm for a lot of people. I got cut off 100% by the end of high school and felt like such a prole in UG. Never gets old having to explain to people why you don't have disposable income despite working throughout the school year.

[rayiner]

TBF people whose parent subsidize school probably don't cut them off immediately at grad. Hell I'm married w a kid and I still don't pay my cell phone bill

I'm 30 and still have a credit-card my daddy pays, although I haven't had to use it, uh, since I turned 30...

[jbagelboy]

TBF people whose parent subsidize school probably don't cut them off immediately at grad. Hell I'm married w a kid and I still don't pay my cell phone bill

I'm 30 and still have a credit-card my daddy pays, although I haven't had to use it, uh, since I turned 30...

rly? damn. my parents never entrusted me with a credit card linked to any of their accounts. I had to open my own credit line when I was 18.

[t-14orbust]

TBF people whose parent subsidize school probably don't cut them off immediately at grad. Hell I'm married w a kid and I still don't pay my cell phone bill

I'm 30 and still have a credit-card my daddy pays, although I haven't had to use it, uh, since I turned 30...

rly? damn. my parents never entrusted me with a credit card linked to any of their accounts. I had to open my own credit line when I was 18.

my parents took out credit cards in my name so I win...? lol

[DELG]

TBF people whose parent subsidize school probably don't cut them off immediately at grad. Hell I'm married w a kid and I still don't pay my cell phone bill

I'm 30 and still have a credit-card my daddy pays, although I haven't had to use it, uh, since I turned 30...

TBF we're terrible people.

[rayiner]

TBF people whose parent subsidize school probably don't cut them off immediately at grad. Hell I'm married w a kid and I still don't pay my cell phone bill

I'm 30 and still have a credit-card my daddy pays, although I haven't had to use it, uh, since I turned 30...

TBF we're terrible people.

I don't think it's that atypical among law students. Though, it's probably one explanation for why lawyers are terrible people.

[LsatDork]

I don't have a credit card. Of course I don't pay much for internet because it's split 4 ways. We pay 35 a month total.
As for food, being a student, I do eat pretty cheap stuff, ramen, pasta, 99 cent pizza, etc... so it doesn't add up to much. I usually start cooking rice or pasta as I wake up, and by the time I'm ready to go, it's ready and I dump it in a tupperware with frozen veggies or chicken pieces or meatballs from TJ. I also get some of my meals at on-campus events and lectures where they distribute lunch. There are many nice apartments in the 600-700s in nice areas (Washington Heights, Brooklyn, etc...) if you are willing to have roommates. Instead of going through a broker, you should take over a friend's place on a long-term existing lease (where the rent hasn't gone up over the years as much as it would have if the apartment was going back on the market at the end of each year), or sublet from somebody that has a rent stabilized apartment. I get health insurance from my parents (their employer puts the children on that until they are 26) and most of my reading assignments at the NYPL.

Anyways, I never said this is how a BigLaw associate should live, nor that I personally expect to get 160k a year out of law school (I don't want to do BigLaw). It just surprises me that with 160k a year people would still need 20 years to pay 150k back, which is what some people where saying they were doing in the other forum. That seems a lot crazier than what I'm doing (living very cheaply as a poor college student). I feel actually really put off by the reaction of certain people, who take it for granted that one should eat out, buy expensive food, have data on their phone. Those are things one does when they have a job and no outstanding school loans IMO.

[jingosaur]

Living on 12-15k per year in school and living on that in the real world are two entirely different things.

Also, when people say it takes 20 years to pay back $150k+ in loans, it's normally with the consideration that after 2-3 years, they will quit or get fired from Biglaw and move to a much lower paying job with the added responsibility of having kids and a mortgage. From what it looks like, most BigLaw associates are dropping about $3k to $4k per month on their student loans while making the $160k. And compounding interest is a total bitch.

[ymmv]

I don't have a credit card. Of course I don't pay much for internet because it's split 4 ways. We pay 35 a month total.
As for food, being a student, I do eat pretty cheap stuff, ramen, pasta, 99 cent pizza, etc... so it doesn't add up to much. I usually start cooking rice or pasta as I wake up, and by the time I'm ready to go, it's ready and I dump it in a tupperware with frozen veggies or chicken pieces or meatballs from TJ. I also get some of my meals at on-campus events and lectures where they distribute lunch. There are many nice apartments in the 600-700s in nice areas (Washington Heights, Brooklyn, etc...) if you are willing to have roommates. Instead of going through a broker, you should take over a friend's place on a long-term existing lease (where the rent hasn't gone up over the years as much as it would have if the apartment was going back on the market at the end of each year), or sublet from somebody that has a rent stabilized apartment. I get health insurance from my parents (their employer puts the children on that until they are 26) and most of my reading assignments at the NYPL.

Anyways, I never said this is how a BigLaw associate should live, nor that I personally expect to get 160k a year out of law school (I don't want to do BigLaw). It just surprises me that with 160k a year people would still need 20 years to pay 150k back, which is what some people where saying they were doing in the other forum. That seems a lot crazier than what I'm doing (living very cheaply as a poor college student). I feel actually really put off by the reaction of certain people, who take it for granted that one should eat out, buy expensive food, have data on their phone. Those are things one does when they have a job and no outstanding school loans IMO.

Ok, I'll let others respond to the rest of this, but having data on your phone should be taken for granted if you want to survive law school, find employment, and exist in the modern world. You will receive anywhere from 10-100 emails a day containing important, often time-sensitive information about class, events, organizations, pro bono, meetings, interviews, etc., to say nothing of Facebook and other social media, and everyone else from the school to employers to peers will assume you have constant access to email communication.

And that's not even counting how often Google Maps can save your ass when you're lost trying to find a building, or how often your calendar app will remind you of events and conflicts you almost certainly would have forgotten about had you relied on checking an old-fashioned calendar book constantly, or how often you will thank god when you can pull up that document you forgot on Dropbox or Google Drive.

Do you want to sit in that coffee shop for two hours like an idiot because the firm associate you were going to meet emailed you to let you know he was running late, then emailed you again shortly after to cancel, all of which you were blissfully ignorant to?

Some of this might be hyperbolic for certain people; I'm a technophile and you should appraise my statements accordingly. But attempting to sift through all this whenever you have a chance to get to your computer is going to drive you crazy.

Get with the 21st century and get a real phone.

[BigZuck]

I don't have a credit card. Of course I don't pay much for internet because it's split 4 ways. We pay 35 a month total.
As for food, being a student, I do eat pretty cheap stuff, ramen, pasta, 99 cent pizza, etc... so it doesn't add up to much. I usually start cooking rice or pasta as I wake up, and by the time I'm ready to go, it's ready and I dump it in a tupperware with frozen veggies or chicken pieces or meatballs from TJ. I also get some of my meals at on-campus events and lectures where they distribute lunch. There are many nice apartments in the 600-700s in nice areas (Washington Heights, Brooklyn, etc...) if you are willing to have roommates. Instead of going through a broker, you should take over a friend's place on a long-term existing lease (where the rent hasn't gone up over the years as much as it would have if the apartment was going back on the market at the end of each year), or sublet from somebody that has a rent stabilized apartment. I get health insurance from my parents (their employer puts the children on that until they are 26) and most of my reading assignments at the NYPL.

Anyways, I never said this is how a BigLaw associate should live, nor that I personally expect to get 160k a year out of law school (I don't want to do BigLaw). It just surprises me that with 160k a year people would still need 20 years to pay 150k back, which is what some people where saying they were doing in the other forum. That seems a lot crazier than what I'm doing (living very cheaply as a poor college student). I feel actually really put off by the reaction of certain people, who take it for granted that one should eat out, buy expensive food, have data on their phone. Those are things one does when they have a job and no outstanding school loans IMO.

It's ok to have an iPhone and carry some student debt IMO.

I don't mean to keep piling on, just wanted to say that I think the OP is adorably naive when it comes to what grownups do/are responsible for/have to spend money on.

[DELG]

I don't have a credit card. Of course I don't pay much for internet because it's split 4 ways. We pay 35 a month total.
As for food, being a student, I do eat pretty cheap stuff, ramen, pasta, 99 cent pizza, etc... so it doesn't add up to much. I usually start cooking rice or pasta as I wake up, and by the time I'm ready to go, it's ready and I dump it in a tupperware with frozen veggies or chicken pieces or meatballs from TJ. I also get some of my meals at on-campus events and lectures where they distribute lunch. There are many nice apartments in the 600-700s in nice areas (Washington Heights, Brooklyn, etc...) if you are willing to have roommates. Instead of going through a broker, you should take over a friend's place on a long-term existing lease (where the rent hasn't gone up over the years as much as it would have if the apartment was going back on the market at the end of each year), or sublet from somebody that has a rent stabilized apartment. I get health insurance from my parents (their employer puts the children on that until they are 26) and most of my reading assignments at the NYPL.

Anyways, I never said this is how a BigLaw associate should live, nor that I personally expect to get 160k a year out of law school (I don't want to do BigLaw). It just surprises me that with 160k a year people would still need 20 years to pay 150k back, which is what some people where saying they were doing in the other forum. That seems a lot crazier than what I'm doing (living very cheaply as a poor college student). I feel actually really put off by the reaction of certain people, who take it for granted that one should eat out, buy expensive food, have data on their phone. Those are things one does when they have a job and no outstanding school loans IMO.

What are you planning to do instead of biglaw

[AllTheLawz]

Anyways, I never said this is how a BigLaw associate should live, nor that I personally expect to get 160k a year out of law school (I don't want to do BigLaw). It just surprises me that with 160k a year people would still need 20 years to pay 150k back, which is what some people where saying they were doing in the other forum. That seems a lot crazier than what I'm doing (living very cheaply as a poor college student). I feel actually really put off by the reaction of certain people, who take it for granted that one should eat out, buy expensive food, have data on their phone. Those are things one does when they have a job and no outstanding school loans IMO.

Says the same person who said:

Of course I don't budget for unexpected things because my parents can help me if there is an emergency.
Al lot of my nicer clothes were gifts (Christmas, graduation, b-days, etc...) or family members' that got small faster than they got used.

Honestly, the lack of awareness you are showing (especially when combined with the "Can I have my dream of two simultaneous careers" thread) is absolutely shocking and I really think you should question whether you are ready to go to law school. I think you are exactly the type of person who would really benefit from some time in the real world workforce. At this point you sound well on your way to being one of those ridiculous kids in law school who shout about how there should be no such thing as "private property" but then enjoy weekend trips to their family's lake houses and have mommy and daddy buy them a condo that they "pay rent on" after law school.

In addition, you really should look into a good personal finance class. Extreme and unnecessary sacrifices in QOL are not only uncomfortable, they are actually counterproductive in the long run. Most real world adults understand that you can efficiently use credit without being irresponsible by making basic purchases that allow you to maintain sanity, enjoy life and perform your job effectively.

[ikethegremlin]

OP is... lying or insanely fortunate in some way I can't even begin to comprehend. I live in NY as a 'poor' recent college graduate. Let me break down my realistic life, per month.

$950 on rent. I live with 3 other people in a 4 bedroom, 1 bathroom apt.
$100ish on smartphone. The plan is like 80, plus endless taxes, and the inevitable overseas call.
$200?? health insurance. I just finished school, but it's gonna be around 200 I think. I want a decent one.
$400 Groceries. If I'm careful. NY food is EXPENSIVE. You throw in one too many organic things and your wallets on the floor, bleeding.
$20 Laundry. My laundromat is 4.20 for the big washer, 25 cents for 10 minutes in the dryer. I do a big wash once a week, so 20.
$10 Spotify
$50/60 utilities - internet, gas, electricity. Can't afford cable which sucks because I want HD sports without having to stream.
$120 Unlimited Metrocard
$30 Contact lenses

And that's literally the very, very basics. I need 22,000 a year to survive.
Now, I have nice things like a laptop, a bike, furniture, kitchenwares, full clothing, winter shoes, etc, because of my generous parents. If I hadn't had that, those would be big outlays that each by themselves seems infrequent, but together add up. Its amazing how each month there's a new 'infrequent' thing I need to pay for - repairs to something, new razor blades, toothbrush - shit that seems cheap but suddenly your checking account is scraping empty.

Add in trying to do nice things (drinks in a brooklyn bar - $6. Restaurant, $25 minimum) and you're fucked.
If I'm doing this as a junior associate, working 12/13/14 hour days, I'll kill myself. I couldn't live with 3 other people and share a bathroom and stay sane. I just couldn't.

TL;DR, you need like 60k a year probably just to have a chance of retaining sanity while working biglaw in NY. And that's a conservative estimate.

[09042014]

TBF, your firm will either give you a smart phone or pay for one. The rediculous part is living in a shitty area with a shitty commute eatten ramen noodles.

[LsatDork]

If you read my other threads, you'd know I'm not a 0L, I'm considering law school but not for now, hence questions about career and finances prior to applying. Maybe my questions seem dumb to you. Not ashamed to ask everything I can on an anonymous board. Seems dumber not to.

I get all my e-mails on both my phone (Gmail will forward those to your phone for free if you set it up) and my iPod. I pay 800 a month, 9 months a year, and buy the unlimited 7 months a year (mostly walk in May and don't buy during school breaks, just get weekly for 2 weeks in Jan and 2 weeks in April). This rent isn't unusual for the Upper West Side, especially because our lease is quite old by now, and the rent hasn't gone up that much since we first moved in. I have friends with nicer places that pay less, especially in the 160s streets off Haven or 180s off St Nick or Audubon, very quickly accessible from downtown with the A). I have no idea why your groceries are so much. I go to Trader Joe's to buy meat and veggies, and C-town on wednesdays (10% discount on student Wednesdays) to buy pasta, rice, ramen, cereal and milk. Once again not saying those are things people with jobs should not have, of course if you have a job, you can eat out (don't firms even pay for your Seamless nowadays? Heard Davis Polk and a few other even pay for car service after 8:30-9PM). But as a student it's obviously a normal budget, I'm surprised so many people are shocked. How much did you spend in college? Why isn't anybody willing to live like this for 24 months if it means saving thousands and thousands in interest and peace of mind?

[DELG]

It was a lot more feasible to live like a student when I was a student. Grocery shopping only on a certain day of the week to save money? LOL

[ikethegremlin]

If you read my other threads, you'd know I'm not a 0L, I'm considering law school but not for now, hence questions about career and finances prior to applying. Maybe my questions seem dumb to you. Not ashamed to ask everything I can on an anonymous board. Seems dumber not to.

I get all my e-mails on both my phone (Gmail will forward those to your phone for free if you set it up) and my iPod. I pay 800 a month, 9 months a year, and buy the unlimited 7 months a year (mostly walk in May and don't buy during school breaks, just get weekly for 2 weeks in Jan and 2 weeks in April). This rent isn't unusual for the Upper West Side, especially because our lease is quite old by now, and the rent hasn't gone up that much since we first moved in. I have friends with nicer places that pay less, especially in the 160s streets off Haven or 180s off St Nick or Audubon, very quickly accessible from downtown with the A). I have no idea why your groceries are so much. I go to Trader Joe's to buy meat and veggies, and C-town on wednesdays (10% discount on student Wednesdays) to buy pasta, rice, ramen, cereal and milk. Once again not saying those are things people with jobs should not have, of course if you have a job, you can eat out (don't firms even pay for your Seamless nowadays? Heard Davis Polk and a few other even pay for car service after 8:30-9PM). But as a student it's obviously a normal budget, I'm surprised so many people are shocked. How much did you spend in college? Why isn't anybody willing to live like this for 24 months if it means saving thousands and thousands in interest and peace of mind?

Trust me that is not a normal student budget. I know because for the last four years I've been a normal student with normal student friends, who all have normal student budgets. Fine, maybe you have exceptional circumstances. Perhaps if you're willing to live off ramen you can keep your groceries down low. But 400 a month for groceries is under 14 bucks a day. I cook for myself 7 days a week, 3 meals a day and though in fantasy land each meal is 4 bucks, it doesn't always work out that way. Not including aluminum foil, saran wrap, freezer bags, dishwashing liquid, blahdy fucking blah.

[rayiner]

It was a lot more feasible to live like a student when I was a student. Grocery shopping only on a certain day of the week to save money? LOL

Getting out of work on time to grocery shop on a Wednesday? LOL.

[DELG]

When I was in college I shopped at Aldi's or Wal-Mart or Hy-Vee, whatever was cheaper, and spent a lot of time cooking tasty, labor-intensive stuff that was still delicious, like omelettes and stews and soups. I don't have that luxury anymore so dinner is usually $12 of fish under the broiler with another $5 of veggies.

[ikethegremlin]

When I was in college I shopped at Aldi's or Wal-Mart or Hy-Vee, whatever was cheaper, and spent a lot of time cooking tasty, labor-intensive stuff that was still delicious, like omelettes and stews and soups. I don't have that luxury anymore so dinner is usually $12 of fish under the broiler with another $5 of veggies.

The shittiest thing about NY is grocery shopping in my opinion. No car, for one, so no massive bulk buys from vast box stores. My options in are Trader Joes, Whole Foods or individual bodegas - the worst option, but sometimes you just give in and buy milk/eggs from the corner store because it's 8pm and you are exhausted and you could give a crap about the 100% markup on basic goods.

[ymmv]

When I was in college I shopped at Aldi's or Wal-Mart or Hy-Vee, whatever was cheaper, and spent a lot of time cooking tasty, labor-intensive stuff that was still delicious, like omelettes and stews and soups. I don't have that luxury anymore so dinner is usually $12 of fish under the broiler with another $5 of veggies.

The shittiest thing about NY is grocery shopping in my opinion. No car, for one, so no massive bulk buys from vast box stores. My options in are Trader Joes, Whole Foods or individual bodegas - the worst option, but sometimes you just give in and buy milk/eggs from the corner store because it's 8pm and you are exhausted and you could give a crap about the 100% markup on basic goods.

Bro do you even Fresh Direct?

[AllTheLawz]

If you read my other threads, you'd know I'm not a 0L, I'm considering law school but not for now, hence questions about career and finances prior to applying. Maybe my questions seem dumb to you. Not ashamed to ask everything I can on an anonymous board. Seems dumber not to.

I get all my e-mails on both my phone (Gmail will forward those to your phone for free if you set it up) and my iPod. I pay 800 a month, 9 months a year, and buy the unlimited 7 months a year (mostly walk in May and don't buy during school breaks, just get weekly for 2 weeks in Jan and 2 weeks in April). This rent isn't unusual for the Upper West Side, especially because our lease is quite old by now, and the rent hasn't gone up that much since we first moved in. I have friends with nicer places that pay less, especially in the 160s streets off Haven or 180s off St Nick or Audubon, very quickly accessible from downtown with the A). I have no idea why your groceries are so much. I go to Trader Joe's to buy meat and veggies, and C-town on wednesdays (10% discount on student Wednesdays) to buy pasta, rice, ramen, cereal and milk. Once again not saying those are things people with jobs should not have, of course if you have a job, you can eat out (don't firms even pay for your Seamless nowadays? Heard Davis Polk and a few other even pay for car service after 8:30-9PM). But as a student it's obviously a normal budget, I'm surprised so many people are shocked. How much did you spend in college? Why isn't anybody willing to live like this for 24 months if it means saving thousands and thousands in interest and peace of mind?

Trust me that is not a normal student budget. I know because for the last four years I've been a normal student with normal student friends, who all have normal student budgets. Fine, maybe you have exceptional circumstances. Perhaps if you're willing to live off ramen you can keep your groceries down low. But 400 a month for groceries is under 14 bucks a day. I cook for myself 7 days a week, 3 meals a day and though in fantasy land each meal is 4 bucks, it doesn't always work out that way. Not including aluminum foil, saran wrap, freezer bags, dishwashing liquid, blahdy fucking blah.

IBF OP tells us her dad owns Unilever and her uncle is the CEO of Alcoa so she gets all that free...

[rad lulz]

I'm not even in big law but I gotta bill 2k/yr and I'm this close to ordering groceries off amazon

Maybe I'm just lazy

[rayiner]

If you read my other threads, you'd know I'm not a 0L, I'm considering law school but not for now, hence questions about career and finances prior to applying. Maybe my questions seem dumb to you. Not ashamed to ask everything I can on an anonymous board. Seems dumber not to.

I get all my e-mails on both my phone (Gmail will forward those to your phone for free if you set it up) and my iPod. I pay 800 a month, 9 months a year, and buy the unlimited 7 months a year (mostly walk in May and don't buy during school breaks, just get weekly for 2 weeks in Jan and 2 weeks in April). This rent isn't unusual for the Upper West Side, especially because our lease is quite old by now, and the rent hasn't gone up that much since we first moved in. I have friends with nicer places that pay less, especially in the 160s streets off Haven or 180s off St Nick or Audubon, very quickly accessible from downtown with the A). I have no idea why your groceries are so much. I go to Trader Joe's to buy meat and veggies, and C-town on wednesdays (10% discount on student Wednesdays) to buy pasta, rice, ramen, cereal and milk. Once again not saying those are things people with jobs should not have, of course if you have a job, you can eat out (don't firms even pay for your Seamless nowadays? Heard Davis Polk and a few other even pay for car service after 8:30-9PM). But as a student it's obviously a normal budget, I'm surprised so many people are shocked. How much did you spend in college? Why isn't anybody willing to live like this for 24 months if it means saving thousands and thousands in interest and peace of mind?

I just looked it up on trulia. Your rent is about $1k/month below comparable places near Columbia. Also, living in upper Manhattan means 35-50 minutes each way on a packed (in the summer, hot and uncomfortable) subway every day not counting walking probably 45 minutes to an hour door to door. Sounds like a miserable way to spend the few hours each day you're not at work.

As for why people don't live like this to pay off debt in two years: first, because its impossible. Unless you can cut your expenses down to $750 per month, its literally impossible to pay off $150k in two years. Even if you lived like you do now, except counting 12 months of expenses rather than 9 and no support from parents for trips, work clothes, and emergencies, you'd need more like three years. Second, because living that way for three years while working that much would be miserable. People already flame out of big law within three years, even though most people allow themselves luxuries outside work.