University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions - 2012 Forum

[JayhawkLaw]

Fair question from Mr. Anon, which I'm happy to answer.

Saving myself the time of working through the numbers, I'll accept your estimate as a good ballpark figure for an average graduate here. Of course, with IBR/PAYE and public interest loan forgiveness, this number will vary person to person. And keep in mind that's an average figure. Some KU Law graduates will have more debt at graduation, some less.

That's why we feel KU Law is such a good opportunity for students. Assuming the average graduate will work until their mid-60's, and assuming the average graduate averages between $50,000-$100,000 during their career (not adjusted for inflation, assuming a reasonable increase in salary over the years), that's a $100,000 investment for $2,000,000 - $4,000,000 in salary over the course of a career. Since the median attorney salary is $113,000 and the average salary for someone with a bachelor's degree is $60,000, I think those are appropriately conservative variables and point to a compelling financial argument to attend KU Law. Most of our graduates do well financially.

But there is definitely risk in pursuing a law degree and for that reason I do not advise people to go to law school for a financial payoff. I advise folks to go to law school because they want to be an attorney, or because they want to use a JD to achieve their career goals.

[cooldude87]

Are scholarship offers negotiable or are they final. If negotiable how likely is one to be able to have the amount increased.

[Sheffield]

Out of curiosity, is the absence of [substantial] OCI participation the primary reason why KU’s employment rate is under 50%?

[Gooses]

Fair question from Mr. Anon, which I'm happy to answer.

Saving myself the time of working through the numbers, I'll accept your estimate as a good ballpark figure for an average graduate here. Of course, with IBR/PAYE and public interest loan forgiveness, this number will vary person to person. And keep in mind that's an average figure. Some KU Law graduates will have more debt at graduation, some less.

That's why we feel KU Law is such a good opportunity for students. Assuming the average graduate will work until their mid-60's, and assuming the average graduate averages between $50,000-$100,000 during their career (not adjusted for inflation, assuming a reasonable increase in salary over the years), that's a $100,000 investment for $2,000,000 - $4,000,000 in salary over the course of a career. Since the median attorney salary is $113,000 and the average salary for someone with a bachelor's degree is $60,000, I think those are appropriately conservative variables and point to a compelling financial argument to attend KU Law. Most of our graduates do well financially.

But there is definitely risk in pursuing a law degree and for that reason I do not advise people to go to law school for a financial payoff. I advise folks to go to law school because they want to be an attorney, or because they want to use a JD to achieve their career goals.

I.don't.even.

[JayhawkLaw]

@cooldude

You can request that your scholarship award be re-evaluated by the Admissions Committee. The Committee will consider such a request under two conditions, 1) if you have received competing scholarship offers, 2) if you can demonstrate exceptional financial need, typically dependents or a disability. The likelihood of success is dependent on those two factors.

[JayhawkLaw]

@ sheffield

As reported to the ABA, our employment rate is 80.5%. Our Career Services Office calculates the figure at 84.2% which includes students enrolled in graduate school and subtracts students who are not seeking employment. Of course, those are the top-line numbers and we encourage all students to look beyond those numbers to get a fuller picture of employment outcomes for our students. To find out more, please visit our website at url]http://www.law.ku.edu/employment-statistics[/url]. Like nearly all law schools, we have seen a decline in OCI hiring over the past three or four years.

[Sheffield]

@ sheffield

As reported to the ABA, our employment rate is 80.5%. Our Career Services Office calculates the figure at 84.2% which includes students enrolled in graduate school and subtracts students who are not seeking employment. Of course, those are the top-line numbers and we encourage all students to look beyond those numbers to get a fuller picture of employment outcomes for our students. To find out more, please visit our website at url]http://www.law.ku.edu/employment-statistics[/url]. Like nearly all law schools, we have seen a decline in OCI hiring over the past three or four years.

These days we are all leery of the term Employment Rate. . . versus LEGAL Employment Rate. Too many reports of schools being disingenuous with their employment stats, i.e., pizza delivery equals employment. There is a thread from a couple of KU LS grads not able to find anything in the legal world, but they are employed.

Even on the KU site you noted, only 50% end up at a law firm (and 5% with a Clerkship). Combine them both and Legal Employment is still under 60%. Just saying. . .

[JayhawkLaw]

Not to quibble with you, but the poster specifically asked about our employment rate. And contrary to what the poster stated, by any reasonable measure our employment rate is well above fifty percent.

As to a "legal employment" rate, we don't have an official one but if you include bar required plus JD advantage, our rate is 70% (http://www.law.ku.edu/employment-statistics). And don't try to tell me JD advantage jobs don't exist or shouldn't count. To use one example, my job (Ass't Dean of Admissions) is classified as JD advantage, as are the entry level counterparts (Ass't Director, etc.). Similarly, don't try to tell me short-term positions shouldn't count, ten minutes ago one of our Class of 2011 grads was in my office talking about how she was about to take a three month clerkship with a federal magistrate judge. If I've learned anything in life, it's all about getting your foot in the door. So when we count her in our employment rate, we're proud to do so.

We're by no means satisfied with a 70% rate and we are working hard to improve it. We've hired a new Dean of Career Services, reduced our class size from 165 to 140 (two years ago, before it was cool), and are engaging our 7,000 alumni to a much greater degree than before. Around March 15 or so we'll report to everyone how our efforts are paying off. We're seeing improvement over last year, but it's still too early to draw conclusions. The economy is finally starting to grow, we're hoping that will revive some of the OCI and government hiring that has been diminished or absent the past few years.

[Sheffield]

Thanks for the response. The reason I wound up on this thread had nothing to do with KU, under new posts someone stated, "HA, if Obama is able to put his policies in place the legal field will be dead in 4 year." I asked, what leads you to believe that? I never heard back.

And now every time someone posts it appears in my view your posts (I wished TLS gave us the option to discontinue once we are finished with a topic).

I asked this question earlier. Before OCI I mega-mass-mailed firms and without fail every firm politely responded they were filled. It was not until OCI that I received multiple SA offers. Which is why I asked, how does KU (or any LS for that matter) manage to place a substantial numbers of students without extensive OCI participation?

[JayhawkLaw]

@ Sheffield

Even before the current recession, most law students, including KU Law students, found employment outside of the OCI process. How did they do it? There's no one thing that someone can do that will guarantee employment. For every story like yours where someone sent out dozens and dozens of resumes with no response, there are other students who months later received a phone call from a firm asking for an interview. Some students network like crazy without positive results; other students network like crazy and find employment from it. I tell people you need to identify five job search acitivities you need to be doing strategically, consistently and persistently. Only one of those five will land you a job, the other four will not. The catch is no one knows which of those five will be the one, so you've got to embrace all five.

I've been in your shoes and finding that first job can be a frustrating experience. OCI is certainly a good way to go (congrats on getting those interviews), but it is not the typical way for most law students. But even in this tough economy, most students are finding good jobs, or at least jobs that get your foot in the door that will lead to good jobs down the road.

One of the most important activities to do is to take advantage of your Career Services Office (CSO). At KU Law, new leadership has reinvigorated our CSO. We're still doing traditional CSO activities like one on one counseling, OCI, and career panels, but we are going way beyond that. Most important is our outreach to employers and alumni in our target markets. Our CSO is constantly on the road in places like Texas, Arizona, D.C., Oklahoma, Colorado and other states meeting with alumni to let them know we'll be sending students their way. Locally, we've continued our strong ties to Kansas and Kansas City employers, but with a new emphasis on reaching rural communities in western Kansas where there are opportunities from growth in natural resources and agriculture.

[Sheffield]

I thank you for your excellent response. Since you have the experience/chops, here's a couple questions… likely of interest to those in general (like my cohorts) and KU LS students as well.

Why is so much emphasis placed on 1L grades? How did this ever become the prevailingly hiring criteria?? This does not make sense unless it is an OCI phenomenon. Are 2L grades as MEH as strongly suggested on many TLS threads? To date, my early 2L grades are much better than my median 1L grades. . . general response about 2L grades [from TLS] is way south of a big yawn.

Why is being hired as a 3L [SA] so difficult to achieve? There is a mega-thread on TLS from 3Ls who apparently cannot get arrested, just because of their 3L status. This should be of interest to those (like me) who may want to lateral [in 3L SA] for a location change (perhaps one with a beachfront view would be nice).

I know the answer to some of the above is simply, Just Deal With It. I am just curious how it all came to be. Honestly, some of it just does not make sense (like why don't they teach law in law school. . . .not trying to be funny).

[haus]

Why is so much emphasis placed on 1L grades? How did this ever become the prevailingly hiring criteria?? This does not make sense unless it is an OCI phenomenon. Are 2L grades as MEH as strongly suggested on many TLS threads? To date, my early 2L grades are much better than my median 1L grades. . . general response about 2L grades [from TLS] is way south of a big yawn.

While I would be quite interested in hearing JayHawkLaw's thoughts on all of the questions that you have asked, I have found the emphasis on 1L grades to be interesting. One rational for this behavior is that after the 1L year there is little in the way of fixed requirements, the similarity between the student courses drops off considerably, making comparisons between 2L & 3L GPA less useful compared to the GPAs earned by 1Ls.

[JayhawkLaw]

Keep in mind the emphasis on 1L grades is mostly limited to the OCI process. I'm not sure anyone thinks that's a logical system in terms of identifying the top candidates, but the process kind of dictates it. The controlling factor in the process is that most law firms at OCI are looking for summer associates to intern with them between the 2L and 3L year. To find students in time for the second summer internship, the interviews take place during the second year of law school.

So the summer associate interviews have to take place in the 2L year, the question comes down to the fall vs spring semester. I think most people would agree it would make a bit more sense to wait until the spring semester for the interviews to take place so at least three semesters could be looked at. But a single law firm can't make the change, they'd be missing out on all the top students in the fall OCI. And it's probably too much effort to change the system. Keep in mind, this system seems to work from the law firms' point of view - I haven't heard too many law firms complain that the lack of that third semester of grades results in poor hiring decisions.

As to the law schools' role in all this, we're pretty much just responding to the law firms' needs. We have fall and spring OCI, but most law firms with summer associate programs prefer interviewing in the fall.

There is good news though for big-firm seeking students who perform better in their 2L and 3L years. Judicial clerkship interviews, both for state and federal judges, take place in the third year of law school. So late bloomers still have a shot at landing a position that can lead to big firm employment.

[Sheffield]

I believe in your rationale but not the realism.

From my limited experience 1Ls usually serve as unpaid interns (i.e., judicial intern). At the end of 1L it is imperative to land a 2L SA position. If you are unsuccessful the road becomes extremely treacherous. 2Ls trying to land a 3L SA is very difficult. I find this odd, but as you will see from the thread below, securing a 3L SA is tenuous.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=192753

Out of curiosity, how many firms attend KU's OCI? Thx

[JayhawkLaw]

I checked with our Dean of Career Services, he told me that last year we had 50 on-site OCI participants plus 7 who were accepting resumes. Regarding the types of employers, we don't have the list classified by employer type, but he's going to print out a list for me and I'll break down the distribution. I should be able to post that by early next week.

[biggemflowers]

What impact does attending KU for undergrad have on applying for KU law?

[cooldude87]

Tuition and fees for out of state students went up nearly $3000 from last school year to this one. Will this be a regular occurrence. I received a decent scholarship offer but if costs go up nearly $3000 every year the offer doesn't seem to be good anymore.

[JayhawkLaw]

@biggemflowers

Although we bleed crimson and blue here in the office, we view applicants equally and do not give more or less weight to KU applicants, other than that we know you went to an outstanding university. That can definitely be a positive factor. If you're looking for ways to stand out, you should definitely submit the optional Kansas statement. That will let us know that you are very interested in our program. We're much more likely to make you an offer if we feel you're likely to accept.

[JayhawkLaw]

@ cooldude

Last year we did raise our rates more than we do in a typical year. For the record, last year we raised tuition for in-state students by $2,200 and for out-state-state students by $2,830, a bit less than the $3,000 mentioned by you.

I can understand that folks might wonder why we would do that and whether we have plans to repeat that. Let me answer the second part first. No, we have no plans to raise tuition by a similar amount. Which brings me to the first part. We raised the tuition because frankly our tuition was less than many of our neighboring schools and we felt we could raise our tuition a bit more than ususal while still keeping KU Law affordable. The chart below shows where we fit among the schools in our region:

Resident Tuition
St. Louis $36,886
Drake $35,170
Creighton $34,490
Texas $33,162
Tulsa $31,836
Colorado $31,495
Iowa $27,344
Arizona $27,272
Arizona State $26,267
Utah $22,410
Oklahoma $19,763
Kansas $18,663
Missouri $18,619
Washburn $17,910
UMCK $17,539

I'll post out of state next.

[JayhawkLaw]

Out of State Tuition

Texas $49,244
Iowa $47,792
Utah $42,548
Arizona $42,283
Arizona State $40,815
Colorado $38,281
St. Louis $36,440
Missouri $35,647
Drake $35,170
UMKC $34,206
Creighton $33,490
Tulsa $32,003
Kansas $31,474
Oklahoma $30,188
Washburn $27,960

[JayhawkLaw]

Finally, I want to give a heads up that I was out of the office all last week which explains the delayed responses to folks' questions. I'll work hard to respond quicker in the future.

[JayhawkLaw]

We have a pretty cool event happening this Thursday at the law school. PM me if you are interested in attending and I'll save a seat for you.

Human Trafficking Lecture with General Mark Scraba

The International Law Society welcomes Brigadier General Mark Scraba, head of European Command's Joint Interagency Counter Trafficking Center, which combats illegal trafficking in drugs, weapons, and humans. General Scraba will lecture about the military's role in enforcing international law regarding human trafficking. He will also discuss the EUCOM task force and the coordinated operations he oversees in Europe.

January 31, 2013
12:30 pm - 01:30 pm
Green Hall, 106
Free

http://www.law.ku.edu/event/49243

[JayhawkLaw]

We have some really neat new blog entries on our website.

In January, Professor Andrew Torrance takes his biodiversity class to the USVI every year. This year he blogged on location.

1L Jordan Carter talks about transitioning from a liberal arts mindset to a law student mindset.

And 1L Amanda Angell gives advice on how to manage law school while raising two kids and one husband.

You can read them all here...http://kuschooloflaw.blogspot.com.

[cooldude87]

I checked with our Dean of Career Services, he told me that last year we had 50 on-site OCI participants plus 7 who were accepting resumes. Regarding the types of employers, we don't have the list classified by employer type, but he's going to print out a list for me and I'll break down the distribution. I should be able to post that by early next week.

How about that list

[JayhawkLaw]

@cooldude

Sorry for the delay. We had 47 employers come for on-campus interviewes plus 10 employers who collected resumes. Of the 47 who came for on-campus interviews, 33 were law firms, 3 were businesses and 11 were government organizations. Of the 10 resume collecting firms, 7 were law firms and 3 were government organizations.

To get a good sense of the types of employers, I encourage you to look at our list of employers over the past five years:

U.S. & the World: http://www.law.ku.edu/us-world-employers
Kansas & Missouri: http://www.law.ku.edu/ks-mo-employers

Hope this helps.