So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate? Forum

[tomwatts]

One of the underappreciated options is state/local government. I interned at a County Counsel's office during one of my summers, and it seemed like a pretty good gig. The hours were totally reasonable (mostly 9-5/6 ish), and the pay was much higher than I was expecting. I think entry-level was low six figures

I don't believe that at all. Matter of fact, I'd be very surprised if it were even close to six figures. Do you have a link? Should all be public info.

For Santa Clara County, the entry-level Impact Fellowship pays $100,000 per year.

You can look up other salaries here, but it's a little hard to tell exactly what the salaries mean because they don't distinguish between someone who was employed for part of the year and someone who was employed for the whole year. There are some people graded Attorney I who make high 70's/low 80's (and if you Google their names, they graduated the year before, so they're clearly entry-level), but I think they were employed for only part of the year, or they got immediate big raises, because if you look at the same people the next year they're near or over 100K (at least for a couple that I checked).

So you may not believe it, but it's true. Santa Clara County pays good money.

[Tls2016]

One of the underappreciated options is state/local government. I interned at a County Counsel's office during one of my summers, and it seemed like a pretty good gig. The hours were totally reasonable (mostly 9-5/6 ish), and the pay was much higher than I was expecting. I think entry-level was low six figures

I don't believe that at all. Matter of fact, I'd be very surprised if it were even close to six figures. Do you have a link? Should all be public info.

For Santa Clara County, the entry-level Impact Fellowship pays $100,000 per year.

You can look up other salaries here, but it's a little hard to tell exactly what the salaries mean because they don't distinguish between someone who was employed for part of the year and someone who was employed for the whole year. There are some people graded Attorney I who make high 70's/low 80's (and if you Google their names, they graduated the year before, so they're clearly entry-level), but I think they were employed for only part of the year, or they got immediate big raises, because if you look at the same people the next year they're near or over 100K (at least for a couple that I checked).

So you may not believe it, but it's true. Santa Clara County pays good money.

Not disputing government salaries because I don't know. But that fellowship is a two year position that hires one person a year. The current person is a Yale grad with a 9th circuit clerkship and a district court clerkship and expensive PI experience, including working for the UN high commissioner on refugees before law school. Yale undergrad.

The previous fellows had similar extensive PI background if not clerking. [ the person from UCDavis, the lowest ranked school, went to Princeton undergrad and had a previous law fellowship with a public health law organization]
I'm concluding that salary is for a highly competitive fellowship, not an entry level position. Possibly a stepping stone for academia? Read these peoples resumes and prepare to feel like an inadequate waste of space if you just went CCN to corporate biglaw like me.

https://www.sccgov.org/sites/cco/opport ... llows.aspx

[tomwatts]

Not disputing government salaries because I don't know. But that fellowship is a two year position that hires one person a year. The current person is a Yale grad with a 9th circuit clerkship and a district court clerkship and expensive PI experience, including working for the UN high commissioner on refugees before law school. Yale undergrad.

The previous fellows had similar extensive PI background if not clerking. [ the person from UCDavis, the lowest ranked school, went to Princeton undergrad and had a previous law fellowship with a public health law organization]
I'm concluding that salary is for a highly competitive fellowship, not an entry level position. Possibly a stepping stone for academia? Read these peoples resumes and prepare to feel like an inadequate waste of space if you just went CCN to corporate biglaw like me.

https://www.sccgov.org/sites/cco/opport ... llows.aspx

Oh, sure, the Impact Fellowship is competitive, but that's not the same as whether it's entry-level. The people hired into the fellowship haven't been practicing lawyers before. They might have clerked or something, but they're still getting hired into essentially their first job out of law school. These aren't people 5 or 10 years of experience.

But I linked the Impact Fellowship just because it has the easiest salary to verify. It looks like the other lawyers that the county hires get the same kind of initial paycheck (again, at least by the second year — not sure whether the first-year salary is for the full year or not). That's public defenders, district attorneys, county counsel staff, etc. And those people are coming from Berkeley, UCLA, Hastings, and the like. Those jobs are probably still competitive-ish — better to be near the top of your class at UCLA, for example — but they're entry-level (no prior experience necessary) and not necessarily from HYS.

Again, Santa Clara County is not necessarily representative of anything, even counties in California. I'm just saying that there are things to be found, if you poke around.

[Tls2016]

Not disputing government salaries because I don't know. But that fellowship is a two year position that hires one person a year. The current person is a Yale grad with a 9th circuit clerkship and a district court clerkship and expensive PI experience, including working for the UN high commissioner on refugees before law school. Yale undergrad.

The previous fellows had similar extensive PI background if not clerking. [ the person from UCDavis, the lowest ranked school, went to Princeton undergrad and had a previous law fellowship with a public health law organization]
I'm concluding that salary is for a highly competitive fellowship, not an entry level position. Possibly a stepping stone for academia? Read these peoples resumes and prepare to feel like an inadequate waste of space if you just went CCN to corporate biglaw like me.

https://www.sccgov.org/sites/cco/opport ... llows.aspx

Oh, sure, the Impact Fellowship is competitive, but that's not the same as whether it's entry-level. The people hired into the fellowship haven't been practicing lawyers before. They might have clerked or something, but they're still getting hired into essentially their first job out of law school. These aren't people 5 or 10 years of experience.

But I linked the Impact Fellowship just because it has the easiest salary to verify. It looks like the other lawyers that the county hires get the same kind of initial paycheck (again, at least by the second year — not sure whether the first-year salary is for the full year or not). That's public defenders, district attorneys, county counsel staff, etc. And those people are coming from Berkeley, UCLA, Hastings, and the like. Those jobs are probably still competitive-ish — better to be near the top of your class at UCLA, for example — but they're entry-level (no prior experience necessary) and not necessarily from HYS.

Again, Santa Clara County is not necessarily representative of anything, even counties in California. I'm just saying that there are things to be found, if you poke around.

Your example isn't even a permanent entry level job. It is a 2year fellowship. I don't think that using an extremely competitive 2 year fellowship as an example of county entry level salaries is useful. One person gets that fellowship per year and they better be awesome. Then they leave after 2 years.

Clerking does count as practicing. In litigation clerking for the 9th circuit court of appeals is much better experience than working at a random biglaw firm. That is why firms take clerks as second or third years. I glanced at the list again and found someone else who had had another fellowship before taking this one.

Edit to add: I have no idea what true entry level PDs or DAs or city attorney's make anywhere in the US. I just wouldn't count on getting a competitive 2 year fellowship as your first job out of law school. It sounds unicornish.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I agree that these fellowships are entry level - competitive, but they still count as entry level. Also the majority of the fellows seem to stay and work as deputy counsels, and while it's possible they take a pay cut I would imagine their salary stays pretty much the same.

But it is only one county. My sense is that pay for local government stuff can vary hugely, depending on the wealth of the locality and probably the vagaries of history as to whether someone in the past was able to earmark lots of funds for salaries.

[tomwatts]

But it is only one county. My sense is that pay for local government stuff can vary hugely, depending on the wealth of the locality and probably the vagaries of history as to whether someone in the past was able to earmark lots of funds for salaries.

I agree entirely. Again, Santa Clara County isn't necessarily representative of anything. I just think that people rule out state/local jobs too quickly because they think that all state/local jobs pay low/mid-five figures. Maybe most do; I have no idea. But not all. It's worth looking around, at least.

(And again, Impact Fellowship aside, true entry-level county employees, without a prior fellowship or clerkship, get around the same paycheck, at least by the second year. That information is linked above, although you have to dig through the data more to find it.)

[A. Nony Mouse]

But it is only one county. My sense is that pay for local government stuff can vary hugely, depending on the wealth of the locality and probably the vagaries of history as to whether someone in the past was able to earmark lots of funds for salaries.

I agree entirely. Again, Santa Clara County isn't necessarily representative of anything. I just think that people rule out state/local jobs too quickly because they think that all state/local jobs pay low/mid-five figures. Maybe most do; I have no idea. But not all. It's worth looking around, at least.

(And again, Impact Fellowship aside, true entry-level county employees, without a prior fellowship or clerkship, get around the same paycheck, at least by the second year. That information is linked above, although you have to dig through the data more to find it.)

Yeah, I definitely agree that state/local jobs can be very good options.

[anonQs2019]

DA is gov and so are state/municipal legal departments. Don't look at "gov" placement and think "bigfed"

Right so my point is that those kids graduating from W&M and getting jobs with gov (outside of BigFed) all have jobs with reasonable hours, benefits, and although they might not start at 6 figures but they can get there within a few years right?

[Tls2016]

I thought entry level jobs were permanent offers? Also I don't see how clerking doesn't count as a entry level job if this fellowship does.
Either way, no one is counting on this job as an outcome from school so maybe it's irrelevant.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

DA is gov and so are state/municipal legal departments. Don't look at "gov" placement and think "bigfed"

Right so my point is that those kids graduating from W&M and getting jobs with gov (outside of BigFed) all have jobs with reasonable hours, benefits, and although they might not start at 6 figures but they can get there within a few years right?

In NYC getting to six figures takes 7-10 years, and I would have to imagine it's one of the more favorable jurisdictions.

If you find that sufficient to buy a house in a good school district around here, go ahead, but the average person who wants a UMC lifestyle for their kids in a high COL area is gonna need more than that.

[krads153]

DA is gov and so are state/municipal legal departments. Don't look at "gov" placement and think "bigfed"

Right so my point is that those kids graduating from W&M and getting jobs with gov (outside of BigFed) all have jobs with reasonable hours, benefits, and although they might not start at 6 figures but they can get there within a few years right?

In NYC getting to six figures takes 7-10 years, and I would have to imagine it's one of the more favorable jurisdictions.

If you find that sufficient to buy a house in a good school district around here, go ahead, but the average person who wants a UMC lifestyle for their kids in a high COL area is gonna need more than that.

Didn't read the rest of this discussion, but biglaw in NYC isn't UMC lifestyle either...

so unless you're an i-banker, or whatever, or old money or have free family housing in NYC, I'm not sure how anyone can afford to have a UMC lifestyle with kids in NYC area. Personally, I don't know how people even raise kids in NYC - it's practically like child abuse given the conditions I've seen (kids sleep in the living room/closet, etc.). Daycare is like 3k a month (lol) and NYC public schools are trash for the most part.

[krads153]

The fake salary stat ITT for jobs like police officers are totally absurd. Police officers make less than $50k starting and non-officers will never make six figures. http://work.chron.com/salary-rookie-cop-nypd-2215.html

Train conductors make at most $80k in NY, and those are the highest paid in the country. http://work.chron.com/much-money-train- ... 10755.html. The low is $40k. They will not make six figures in that position.

Don't misrepresent and inflate the salary data of other professions to make biglaw seem worse. Biglaw is bad enough on its own even considering the high compensation.

they get pretty good benefits though while biglaw has no benefits. it is a little bit inflated to say 100k for a train conductor, but once you factor in pension and union/govt benefits, you could be missing 20k of after tax income so almost 35k of pretax income.

average NYC janitor makes 109k a year http://nypost.com/2015/09/20/average-ny ... 9k-a-year/
a 100k garbage man salary is actually 145k all in comp including benefits http://www.wnd.com/2011/01/253645/

omfg...we are all suckers

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Didn't read the rest of this discussion, but biglaw in NYC isn't UMC lifestyle either...

so unless you're an i-banker, or whatever, or old money or have free family housing in NYC, I'm not sure how anyone can afford to have a UMC lifestyle with kids in NYC area. Personally, I don't know how people even raise kids in NYC - it's practically like child abuse given the conditions I've seen (kids sleep in the living room/closet, etc.). Daycare is like 3k a month (lol) and NYC public schools are trash for the most part.

It's definitely UMC after your loans are paid. Even most in-house salaries will allow you a house in a decent district (though probably not a big place in the city).

[A. Nony Mouse]

DA is gov and so are state/municipal legal departments. Don't look at "gov" placement and think "bigfed"

Right so my point is that those kids graduating from W&M and getting jobs with gov (outside of BigFed) all have jobs with reasonable hours, benefits, and although they might not start at 6 figures but they can get there within a few years right?

In NYC getting to six figures takes 7-10 years, and I would have to imagine it's one of the more favorable jurisdictions.

If you find that sufficient to buy a house in a good school district around here, go ahead, but the average person who wants a UMC lifestyle for their kids in a high COL area is gonna need more than that.

Didn't read the rest of this discussion, but biglaw in NYC isn't UMC lifestyle either...

so unless you're an i-banker, or whatever, or old money or have free family housing in NYC, I'm not sure how anyone can afford to have a UMC lifestyle with kids in NYC area. Personally, I don't know how people even raise kids in NYC - it's practically like child abuse given the conditions I've seen (kids sleep in the living room/closet, etc.). Daycare is like 3k a month (lol) and NYC public schools are trash for the most part.

This is all getting into really subjective factors totally dependent on personal values. There are plenty of people for whom the cultural options/diversity/etc of NYC are more important for their child-rearing than square foot of home. It's not child abuse to live in a small apartment with kids - maybe you want them to value something other than a big house with a lawn. I'm certainly not saying you have to raise kids in NYC but because you wouldn't doesn't make it bad.

[jrass]

DA is gov and so are state/municipal legal departments. Don't look at "gov" placement and think "bigfed"

Right so my point is that those kids graduating from W&M and getting jobs with gov (outside of BigFed) all have jobs with reasonable hours, benefits, and although they might not start at 6 figures but they can get there within a few years right?

In NYC getting to six figures takes 7-10 years, and I would have to imagine it's one of the more favorable jurisdictions.

If you find that sufficient to buy a house in a good school district around here, go ahead, but the average person who wants a UMC lifestyle for their kids in a high COL area is gonna need more than that.

Didn't read the rest of this discussion, but biglaw in NYC isn't UMC lifestyle either...

so unless you're an i-banker, or whatever, or old money or have free family housing in NYC, I'm not sure how anyone can afford to have a UMC lifestyle with kids in NYC area. Personally, I don't know how people even raise kids in NYC - it's practically like child abuse given the conditions I've seen (kids sleep in the living room/closet, etc.). Daycare is like 3k a month (lol) and NYC public schools are trash for the most part.

This is all getting into really subjective factors totally dependent on personal values. There are plenty of people for whom the cultural options/diversity/etc of NYC are more important for their child-rearing than square foot of home. It's not child abuse to live in a small apartment with kids - maybe you want them to value something other than a big house with a lawn. I'm certainly not saying you have to raise kids in NYC but because you wouldn't doesn't make it bad.

The more general point that gets lost in the weeds is that the only job that guarantees you will earn more than the average household income in NYC is being an associate. If you exclude housing projects and the really rough neighborhoods, the average household income shoots north of $100k, and even this oversells it because most families are way above that mark or no where near it. The result is many people are forced to work in big law that clearly don't want to. This thread looks like more of a criticism of the profession as a whole than anything else.

[jarofsoup]

OP- have you tried going for compliance? Some of these positions pay close to $200k. Banks are big on mobility initiatives these days and a lot of times you can move around the bank once you get in the door and go to the business.

[Nagster5]

Super-helpful thread, thanks to all the BL people who responded. Few Questions:

UMC?

Is short biglaw stint -> fed prosecutor a reasonable career goal, or a "would be nice, don't count on it." I will be a UVa grad, 5 figure debt so no golden handcuffs. Will be avoiding NY like the plague.

Is BernieTrump's difficulty at moving to a nonbiglaw job with stellar credentials typical? Did he stay in too long and is pigeonholed, or is it just that hard to move out of biglaw once you're in?

[rpupkin]

Super-helpful thread, thanks to all the BL people who responded. Few Questions:

UMC?

Is short biglaw stint -> fed prosecutor a reasonable career goal, or a "would be nice, don't count on it." I will be a UVa grad, 5 figure debt so no golden handcuffs. Will be avoiding NY like the plague.

Is BernieTrump's difficulty at moving to a nonbiglaw job with stellar credentials typical? Did he stay in too long and is pigeonholed, or is it just that hard to move out of biglaw once you're in?

To answer your questions in order:

1. UMC = Upper-Middle Class

2. That goal is definitely in the "would be nice, don't count on it" category.

3. Not atypical. Once you have a JD, and especially after you've worked as an associate at a law firm, it's tough to lateral to other professional careers. It's certainly not impossible, but it's generally harder than it would have been had you never gone to law school in the first place.

[Biglaw1990]

.

[Nagster5]

Super-helpful thread, thanks to all the BL people who responded. Few Questions:

UMC?

Is short biglaw stint -> fed prosecutor a reasonable career goal, or a "would be nice, don't count on it." I will be a UVa grad, 5 figure debt so no golden handcuffs. Will be avoiding NY like the plague.

Is BernieTrump's difficulty at moving to a nonbiglaw job with stellar credentials typical? Did he stay in too long and is pigeonholed, or is it just that hard to move out of biglaw once you're in?

To answer your questions in order:

1. UMC = Upper-Middle Class

2. That goal is definitely in the "would be nice, don't count on it" category.

3. Not atypical. Once you have a JD, and especially after you've worked as an associate at a law firm, it's tough to lateral to other professional careers. It's certainly not impossible, but it's generally harder than it would have been had you never gone to law school in the first place.

What about other JD jobs? Government mostly. Thanks for the response.

[tomwatts]

What about other JD jobs? Government mostly. Thanks for the response.

It depends a little on what you've been doing. His problem is that he wants to leave law entirely (and even if it weren't, he sounds like he chose a specialty that makes him valuable pretty much only in biglaw). There are definitely ways to make yourself more likely to be able to leave for other positions, including government ones (choosing a better specialty — probably within litigation, not transactional — and networking/internships during law school being among them), if that's what you want.

[pancakes3]

WM isn't getting NY County DA. WM is getting Tidewater DA. Richmond DA. Big city NY/Dade County/Cook County/LA DA positions are highly competitive. Even though the COL is lower but it doesn't guarantee a UMC lifestyle especially if you've got debt. DINK helps though.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

WM isn't getting NY County DA. WM is getting Tidewater DA. Richmond DA. Big city NY/Dade County/Cook County/LA DA positions are highly competitive. Even though the COL is lower but it doesn't guarantee a UMC lifestyle especially if you've got debt. DINK helps though.

We agreed that most of W&M gov placement is not Bigfed and we agreed that most of Bigfed/competitive DA positions go to T14 grads. The competitiveness is relevant info in the context of the already-overwhelming argument that non-T14 outcomes tend to be bad, but not particularly relevant in the context of whether there are better options than Biglaw, because anyone who can get those jobs could get Biglaw too.

[krads153]

DA is gov and so are state/municipal legal departments. Don't look at "gov" placement and think "bigfed"

Right so my point is that those kids graduating from W&M and getting jobs with gov (outside of BigFed) all have jobs with reasonable hours, benefits, and although they might not start at 6 figures but they can get there within a few years right?

In NYC getting to six figures takes 7-10 years, and I would have to imagine it's one of the more favorable jurisdictions.

If you find that sufficient to buy a house in a good school district around here, go ahead, but the average person who wants a UMC lifestyle for their kids in a high COL area is gonna need more than that.

Didn't read the rest of this discussion, but biglaw in NYC isn't UMC lifestyle either...

so unless you're an i-banker, or whatever, or old money or have free family housing in NYC, I'm not sure how anyone can afford to have a UMC lifestyle with kids in NYC area. Personally, I don't know how people even raise kids in NYC - it's practically like child abuse given the conditions I've seen (kids sleep in the living room/closet, etc.). Daycare is like 3k a month (lol) and NYC public schools are trash for the most part.

How do you figure that NYC Biglaw does not provide one with an UMC lifestyle? Associate salaries provide an UMC lifestyle, and partner salaries (at the profitable firms) provide one with an UC lifestyle. Please explain your line of reasoning?

Associate salaries do not provide you with an UMC lifestyle in NYC. Yes, partners have UC lifestyle, but they also make 10 to 25 times more than associates....

Reasons why:
- COL keeps going through the roof in NYC. Rent alone has increased on average over 50% in the past 8 years in NYC. I see no end in sight in the near future with rent increases. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years the average one bed costs 5k while salaries stay stagnant. (Right now the average is around 3200 a month for a one bed in MFH.) At that point people will just cram 5 to an apartment or whatever.
- 45% of your income goes to taxes.
- You will likely only be able to afford to rent a 1 bed in MFH....nothing particularly ritzy, it just won't be in the ghetto.
- If you want a family, anything over 1 bedroom in MFH will cost you 6k or more....I don't see how a biglawyer could afford that (maybe if both spouses were in biglaw). You could commute from Jersey or far out in Brooklyn, but I doubt people want to commute 45 minutes to over 1 hour everyday if they didn't have to.
- Healthcare costs in biglaw are insane - it's like 400 bucks per person and for a family it may be 700-800 a month. If your spouse works, you should not use biglaw healthcare.
- With a solo biglaw salary you could not afford rent and afford to send your child to daycare - you simply couldn't, or you may be living paycheck to paycheck.

I don't know why we're arguing - an associate biglaw salary in NYC is clearly not UMC lifestyle . It gives you a very average lifestyle. And before you say "oh but the average salary in NYC is X" remember that the people who were born and raised here 40 years ago have rent-controlled or rent-stabilized apartments or own their own place already from 30 years ago, etc. and don't have to deal with COL increases like transplants do. The only people I know (aside from biglaw partners) who have UMC lifestyle in NYC are in finance/i-banking.

Also maybe my perspective is slightly different because pretty much everyone I know makes/has made more money than me (in my family and my friends in other professions)....and they don't for the most part live in NYC.

Going into the biglaw for the money is just plain stupid - if you want to become UMC/rich, don't go into law.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Or just don't live in NYC, maybe.