Columbia students taking questions Forum

[Dr_OIT]

Hey all — I'm visiting for ASP this week and getting excited!

(1) I've heard a lot about Columbia being "where fun goes to die" and that everyone is miserable. And that it's especially cutthroat. Is there much truth to that? Having lived in NYC, I know it's easy for people to do their own thing. Is there really a sense of community at CLS?

Also, (2) I've visited the library in JG, and it didn't really strike me as the most inviting place, so I was wondering if there were other places on campus (whether in JG or other Columbia buildings) where some law students study? Other than in their apartments or coffee shops lol.

My experience was so different from (1) that I can't even really relate to the thought. Also, the proverb is that Chicago is where fun goes to die, not Columbia.

Columbia had some shit qualities, but it was always a fun time. Great community, smart students who know how to drink, fun city.

Regarding study spaces, Butler library is nice, as are some of the upper west side cafes like maxx on amsterdam and irving farm. A lot of people also study in their apartments or in JG.

Thanks! This is a relief.. This was all anecdotal, of course, from people at another T14 that I visited, so I was skeptical to begin with... (Someone extended the Chicago proverb by saying "Those Chicago undergrads go to CLS for grad school to finish the job." And to be fair, that quote was just from one person.)

Can you expand a bit on the shit qualities?

[Nebby]

Hey all — I'm visiting for ASP this week and getting excited!

(1) I've heard a lot about Columbia being "where fun goes to die" and that everyone is miserable. And that it's especially cutthroat. Is there much truth to that? Having lived in NYC, I know it's easy for people to do their own thing. Is there really a sense of community at CLS?

Also, (2) I've visited the library in JG, and it didn't really strike me as the most inviting place, so I was wondering if there were other places on campus (whether in JG or other Columbia buildings) where some law students study? Other than in their apartments or coffee shops lol.

My experience was so different from (1) that I can't even really relate to the thought. Also, the proverb is that Chicago is where fun goes to die, not Columbia.

Columbia had some shit qualities, but it was always a fun time. Great community, smart students who know how to drink, fun city.

Regarding study spaces, Butler library is nice, as are some of the upper west side cafes like maxx on amsterdam and irving farm. A lot of people also study in their apartments or in JG.

Thanks! This is a relief.. This was all anecdotal, of course, from people at another T14 that I visited, so I was skeptical to begin with... (Someone extended the Chicago proverb by saying "Those Chicago undergrads go to CLS for grad school to finish the job." And to be fair, that quote was just from one person.)

Can you expand a bit on the shit qualities?

Sounds like a disgruntled Penn student

[badlefthook]

Anybody here who has taken externship with southern district U.S. attorneys office, or any other USAO? Curious to know what was good, bad, useful about the experience. Thanks in advance.

[RSN]

Hey all — I'm visiting for ASP this week and getting excited!

(1) I've heard a lot about Columbia being "where fun goes to die" and that everyone is miserable. And that it's especially cutthroat. Is there much truth to that? Having lived in NYC, I know it's easy for people to do their own thing. Is there really a sense of community at CLS?

Also, (2) I've visited the library in JG, and it didn't really strike me as the most inviting place, so I was wondering if there were other places on campus (whether in JG or other Columbia buildings) where some law students study? Other than in their apartments or coffee shops lol.

Just to echo JBB, (1) the Columbia Law School as cutthroat meme I like think was started by NYU -- in any case, it's total nonsense. There is also very much a community, which the Student Senate to their credit does a pretty nice job fostering. I mean we're no UVA with beer league softball for half the year, but we do okay. (2) The JG library is kind of dingy and antiquated, although I've done a ton of work there and find it totally fine, but there are many other libraries on campus where people find study, and lots of other places off campus to go as well.

As for the shit qualities, the main one is that the Columbia bureaucracy is pretty awful at both the university and the law school levels. But that doesn't have much effect on day-to-day law student life and it's nothing that should impact a decision on what school to go to.

[jbagelboy]

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[jbagelboy]

And it case it wasn't clear, I love columbia and I think I've been one of the school's most prominent and most effective ambassadors on this board.

[GoneSouth]

The self selection thing may account for the rate of clerkship placement but it doesn't explain the quality of the clerkships we get.

Take it from an absolute top student who went through the process, we don't get the support we need to pick up feeder clerkships.

Agree on this, I think a lot of it stems from general faculty apathy too. You don't see recommenders willing to go the extra mile to push students.

[BrainsyK]

shit qualities

Again, speaking from personal experience, key failures include blocking interested students from employment opportunities on arbitrary technicalities; punishing students, at times even by reaching out to prospective employers specifically to make them look bad, for innocuous conduct; gross mishandling of student concerns; and for the clerkship office, failing to connect faculty to students in any meaningful way or help streamline a labyrinthine process.

Thanks for your detailed description. Can you go into more detail and possibly give examples of blocking from employment opportunities and punishing students for innocuous conduct--specifically as it relates to private sector employers? Any "errors" that are glaringly obvious to upperclassmen that a 1L might accident run into that could lead to disciplinary actions?

[BrainsyK]

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[BrainsyK]

Again, speaking from personal experience, key failures include blocking interested students from employment opportunities on arbitrary technicalities; punishing students, at times even by reaching out to prospective employers specifically to make them look bad, for innocuous conduct; gross mishandling of student concerns; and for the clerkship office, failing to connect faculty to students in any meaningful way or help streamline a labyrinthine process.

Thanks for your detailed description. Can you go into more detail and possibly give examples of blocking from employment opportunities and punishing students for innocuous conduct--specifically as it relates to private sector employers? Any "errors" that are glaringly obvious to upperclassmen that a 1L might accident run into that could lead to disciplinary actions?[/quote]

[BrainsyK]

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[BrainsyK]

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[jbagelboy]

Thanks for your detailed description. Can you go into more detail and possibly give examples of blocking from employment opportunities and punishing students for innocuous conduct--specifically as it relates to private sector employers? Any "errors" that are glaringly obvious to upperclassmen that a 1L might accident run into that could lead to disciplinary actions?

No, I won't get more specific for now beyond what I've already discussed. Suffice to say I'm not describing anything that you could "avoid" by changing your behavior or that's necessarily going to have any impact on you. I'm also not talking about "disciplinary" actions. If you attend CLS, you will almost certainly get a great job, and if you don't, it won't be because OCS foiled you. The capricious attitude of certain administrators towards students is annoying and occasionally material with regard to a particular opportunity but its not a consideration in choosing between law schools.

I guess the only concrete advice would be follow and adhere strictly to deadlines, and don't expect anyone in the administration will go out of their way to help you.

[AlexFergusonLS]

I've got a conflict the weekend after finals end. Will that effect the law review writing competition? Anyone have a breakdown of how that process works?

Thanks!

[RSN]

I've got a conflict the weekend after finals end. Will that effect the law review writing competition? Anyone have a breakdown of how that process works?

Thanks!

Assuming they don't change the process, and I don't think they're planning to, you'll have 10 or so days to complete the application, and it doesn't take nearly that long. The period should open the last day of finals (last year it was May 13, and closed on May 23). It's also all online, so it can be done anywhere. They structure it that way deliberately because they know everyone has family obligations, graduations, etc. that time of year and they don't want anyone to be cut out because of schedule conflicts. So, short answer is you're totally good. There will be a ton more info about this in the next few weeks also.

[etramak]

Do you guys know anything about the joint JD/LLM study abroad program? Is there any utility to it, other than the excitement of studying in Paris/London/Frankfurt? The idea of studying abroad and holding an LLM in international law or european law sounds really cool to me but I don't know if it would just make being 300k in debt even worse.

[jbagelboy]

Study abroad programs are dope. Depends on your interests. Probably not a good move if you want a scotus clerkship, but lol at that.

[etramak]

Study abroad programs are dope. Depends on your interests. Probably not a good move if you want a scotus clerkship, but lol at that.

How would a full year abroad as a 3L affect your odds at landing a biglaw job in the US? If I go to Columbia I'd almost certainly be paying sticker and my parents have no ability to support my education.

[Nebby]

Study abroad programs are dope. Depends on your interests. Probably not a good move if you want a scotus clerkship, but lol at that.

How would a full year abroad as a 3L affect your odds at landing a biglaw job in the US? If I go to Columbia I'd almost certainly be paying sticker and my parents have no ability to support my education.

First, don't go to CLS at sticker for biglaw. Second, you'd interview for biglaw at the beginning of 2L year so studying abroad 3L wouldn't affect anything.

[HarvardHopeful95]

Study abroad programs are dope. Depends on your interests. Probably not a good move if you want a scotus clerkship, but lol at that.

How would a full year abroad as a 3L affect your odds at landing a biglaw job in the US? If I go to Columbia I'd almost certainly be paying sticker and my parents have no ability to support my education.

First, don't go to CLS at sticker for biglaw. Second, you'd interview for biglaw at the beginning of 2L year so studying abroad 3L wouldn't affect anything.

Why would you advise against Columbia at Sticker for biglaw? Aren't they technically the #1 feeder school for big law

[Tiago Splitter]

Study abroad programs are dope. Depends on your interests. Probably not a good move if you want a scotus clerkship, but lol at that.

How would a full year abroad as a 3L affect your odds at landing a biglaw job in the US? If I go to Columbia I'd almost certainly be paying sticker and my parents have no ability to support my education.

First, don't go to CLS at sticker for biglaw. Second, you'd interview for biglaw at the beginning of 2L year so studying abroad 3L wouldn't affect anything.

Why would you advise against Columbia at Sticker for biglaw? Aren't they technically the #1 feeder school for big law

It's pretty easy to get biglaw from a lot of other similarly ranked schools. Doesn't make sense to pay sticker at CLS when you could very likely get a similar job from similar school for much less money.

[etramak]

Is there any reason to go CLS full sticker? Do you know any students that do it (who don't have rich parents to fall back on)?

[dabigchina]

Is there any reason to go CLS full sticker? Do you know any students that do it (who don't have rich parents to fall back on)?

No . Don't do it.

[jbagelboy]

Is there any reason to go CLS full sticker? Do you know any students that do it (who don't have rich parents to fall back on)?

I know several who took sticker. It's not actually that uncommon. They are at firms now or with judges after a firm/going to firms and they have just accepted a lower quality of life and reduced professional mobility for the 6-7 years after graduation than their peers. Whether they have family resources to fall back on, that's a different question. Many parents won't pay for graduate school, but if push came to shove and their kid was looking at default, they could and would bail them out and make their payments. I don't know many people whose families are truly low income and who borrowed $300k (but there are some).

The key point here, though, isn't whether you can go to a top school, whether it be CLS or HLS or Chicago or Penn, at sticker and make your payments and turn out okay; it's that there's almost always a better option that provides substantially similar opportunity for much less pain.

[dabigchina]

Many parents won't pay for graduate school, but if push came to shove and their kid was looking at default, they could and would bail them out and make their payments.

I would add that even if your parents are comfortable with paying for your grad school, evaluate how comfortable you will be with accepting that much help from your parents, especially if they aren't wealthy enough to write a check for 200k+ without batting an eye. Even if you aren't getting saddled with actual debt, owing your parents that much money, even if it comes in the form of a gift, could definitely take a psychic toll on some people.