WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions Forum

[DoveBodyWash]

Cuse, any more movement imminent with cutoffs? Or is this it for good?

they dodged the question when I asked and offered to schedule an appointment with me...dunno why they couldn't just tell me or not tell me via email.

Probably because they're tired of you insta-posting everything they give you electronically

But seriously, you'd be surprised by how much they lurk on this board and how easy it is to tell who people are.

lol just wanted to know whether to use old cut-offs or new cut-offs since i was one of those that requested a dean's cert. A few other people did as well and they were given the same response

[fl0w]

Or just end up at a firm without mandatory billable requirements

I actually laughed.

A firm with no billable requirement has no billable requirement because it isn't needed. It isn't needed because the associates are guaranteed to work so much that they will never be under any competitive/comparable billable requirement that they would set. Prime example out here is a place like Wilson Sonsini. People going in were all hype about no billable requirement. Now they understand that it's not needed because they have so much work that they are on 2300+hour track.

[fl0w]

Or just end up at a firm without mandatory billable requirements

How do you tell the ones that have no billable hour requirements from that have "no billable hour requirements"? Chambers has a bunch of firms that don't list a minimum but the associates know they have to hit X number.

you have to ask someone that works there that is willing to give you a candid answer. not much of a way around it.

[fl0w]

Or just end up at a firm without mandatory billable requirements

How do you tell the ones that have no billable hour requirements from that have "no billable hour requirements"? Chambers has a bunch of firms that don't list a minimum but the associates know they have to hit X number.

This is the exact question I had, and I feel it extends to all sorts of areas. Which firms do cold offers, which firms are actually congenial and which aren't, which firms have good benefits (Health insurance, any type of 401k matching, free gym memberships) etc.

Because firms tend not to broadcast any of this outside of possibly interviews (From the few times I've actually visited a firm page they've been extraordinarily uninformative) the only place to get intel is either rumor and speculation or associates you know who work there.

It's one of the reasons I'm stoked WUSTL has such an outsized TLS presence, should actually lend itself to real information down the road.

honestly when i had my list of potentials narrowed down I made an effort to find an in at each place where i truly had an interest. someone that was willing to have these candid convos with me. You have to find someone that isn't going to blow smoke up your ass. I know it's more work and effort, but you want to make sure you make a good choice if this is where you going to be spending the majority of your time.

[TatteredDignity]

Cuse, any more movement imminent with cutoffs? Or is this it for good?

they dodged the question when I asked and offered to schedule an appointment with me...dunno why they couldn't just tell me or not tell me via email.

Probably because they're tired of you insta-posting everything they give you electronically

But seriously, you'd be surprised by how much they lurk on this board and how easy it is to tell who people are.

lol just wanted to know whether to use old cut-offs or new cut-offs since i was one of those that requested a dean's cert. A few other people did as well and they were given the same response

I was just giving you a hard time.

[goldeneye]

Or just end up at a firm without mandatory billable requirements

I actually laughed.

A firm with no billable requirement has no billable requirement because it isn't needed. It isn't needed because the associates are guaranteed to work so much that they will never be under any competitive/comparable billable requirement that they would set. Prime example out here is a place like Wilson Sonsini. People going in were all hype about no billable requirement. Now they understand that it's not needed because they have so much work that they are on 2300+hour track.

You're generally right. But there are a few places that truly don't have it regardless of hours and even if you're slow and don't hit some arbitrary number you still get a bonus .

[Birdnals]

I guess if you want to work at Hippy Commune & Socialism LLP you can find a firm with a real no billable requirements...

[goldeneye]

NEW VAULT RANKINGS ARE OUT ALERT ALERT

[Cellar-door]

NEW VAULT RANKINGS ARE OUT ALERT ALERT

Norton Rose Fulbright dropped almost 40 spots. I don't remember hearing anything bad about them recently, what would explain the huge fall?

[sublime]

..

[DoveBodyWash]

NEW VAULT RANKINGS ARE OUT ALERT ALERT

Norton Rose Fulbright dropped almost 40 spots. I don't remember hearing anything bad about them recently, what would explain the huge fall?

Because vereins are TTT

[DoveBodyWash]

NEW VAULT RANKINGS ARE OUT ALERT ALERT

Just when i thought Spain had the worst day today...Poor SullCrom..V4 is so shameful.

[hoos89]

NEW VAULT RANKINGS ARE OUT ALERT ALERT

Norton Rose Fulbright dropped almost 40 spots. I don't remember hearing anything bad about them recently, what would explain the huge fall?

Pretty sure they were two firms when the rankings came out last year. (Norton Rose and Fulbright & Jaworski)

[DoveBodyWash]

did most of you make the "corp or lit" decision after your SA? i'm guessing the issue is much more pressing after we get our offers...but i've been having a lot of trouble trying to pick. How much should our coursework influence our decision? Only ask this because i fucking hated LP.

[fl0w]

did most of you make the "corp or lit" decision after your SA? i'm guessing the issue is much more pressing after we get our offers...but i've been having a lot of trouble trying to pick. How much should our coursework influence our decision? Only ask this because i fucking hated LP.

LP =/= Litigation. Just a foundation for useful skills.
It's hard to answer the Corp v Lit question after 1L unless you had a clear idea coming into school of what you wanted to do on the other side.

I think I talked about the differences a bit before (quoted below for reference)

You get slammed in both but in different ways.
Corporate you are basically on-call. You will have to drop everything and then not sleep for the course of a "deal" and then when it's done you go do bottles and models and rest for a few days.

Litigation ebbs and flows. When it's busy you can't breathe. When it's slow you have anxiety that you aren't going to be making your hours. But it balances out. Until something goes to trial. Then you are slammed so hard that you take a week off after the trial is over because you are useless by the time it's over.

I'll expound a little bit.
Corporate work really feels like something that you don't "need" a legal degree to do. That is most corporate associates have never used WestLaw/Lexis in their practice. In fact most of the corporate group at my firm doesn't even have a login. There are rules, but your practice is a ton of bending over backwards for clients, "making deals" and pushing paper and money around. It reminds me a lot of an investment banker's life. but i'm not corporate and have only done a few corporate projects, so someone else can correct my limited exposure and perception.

Litigation is straight up lawyering in the sense that judges and courts happen. You research shit on WestLaw/Lexis. You write briefs/motions/etc. You do discovery. You use CivPro. You sometimes even end up at trial. Biglaw litigation feels "less" like litigation because you are so rarely actually in a court room due to the high settlement rate. If you are prosecution or public defense you are in court all the time. If you are in a small shop you'll get exposure to court earlier just because there are so few attorneys.

Should your 1L coursework influence this? I doubt it. CivPro and maybe Contracts are the only things applicable to biglaw. I omit LP because you'll have to heavily adjust your writing to fit the style of particular partners. Torts will be applicable if you are in a small shop doing plaintiff side stuff. Crim if you are prosecutor / public defender (very rare in biglaw since Crim doesn't cover white collar shit).

Should 2L coursework influence this? Take corporations. Most people do anyway. I actually never took it because I knew I wanted to do litigation. Otherwise see what your 1L summer looks like. Try something out and see how you enjoy it as it might push you away from or steer you toward something. If you are doing a 2L summer in biglaw they typically want you to AT LEAST decide if you are doing corporate or litigation. There is usually some room to at least try some of the category that you don't select and I do recommend doing so just so you can be sure. Its much harder to switch after you've been hired on.

But on coursework in law school in general... it gives you a vague background that might be useful in practice but is by and large worthless. I always recommend people just take courses that they think they will find interesting. I mean I took two semesters of a language and a lot of critical theory courses in law school and I wanted to do patent litigation. Go figure.

Hope at least two sentences of this was helpful to someone.

[ILoveRaspberries99]

Can anybody who has had Greenfield share their thoughts? I'm considering taking UCC article 2 for the fall but I'm not sure what kind of work load to expect from him.

[abl]

Any tips on neighborhoods to look at or avoid? I'm looking for this coming year. Ideally, I'd like to be <20 minutes from downtown and in an interesting neighborhood. I'm going to be 30 and working at a firm downtown. Access to good running and (road) biking is a plus. I'd prefer a small building to a big apartment complex. Budget is around $1,000/m but I could go up to $1200-1300/m for the right place.

Thanks!

[Fiero85]

Any tips on neighborhoods to look at or avoid? I'm looking for this coming year. Ideally, I'd like to be <20 minutes from downtown and in an interesting neighborhood. I'm going to be 30 and working at a firm downtown. Access to good running and (road) biking is a plus. I'd prefer a small building to a big apartment complex. Budget is around $1,000/m but I could go up to $1200-1300/m for the right place.

Thanks!

Commuting by car or other?

[abl]

Any tips on neighborhoods to look at or avoid? I'm looking for this coming year. Ideally, I'd like to be <20 minutes from downtown and in an interesting neighborhood. I'm going to be 30 and working at a firm downtown. Access to good running and (road) biking is a plus. I'd prefer a small building to a big apartment complex. Budget is around $1,000/m but I could go up to $1200-1300/m for the right place.

Thanks!

Commuting by car or other?

I'll have a car. Although, if public transit's an option, that's a plus (but far from required).

[WheatThins]

Any tips on neighborhoods to look at or avoid? I'm looking for this coming year. Ideally, I'd like to be <20 minutes from downtown and in an interesting neighborhood. I'm going to be 30 and working at a firm downtown. Access to good running and (road) biking is a plus. I'd prefer a small building to a big apartment complex. Budget is around $1,000/m but I could go up to $1200-1300/m for the right place.

Thanks!

Every place in the area will be less than 20 minutes drive to downtown.

You'd probably like the grove, from what I can tell. The central west end will have a lot of grad students and yuppies; it's not the most interesting area, but there are lots of restaurants, bars, and young people. Clayton is pretty cool too, and if you had a spot near I-64, can be downtown in 15 minutes.

[chuckbass]

Any tips on neighborhoods to look at or avoid? I'm looking for this coming year. Ideally, I'd like to be <20 minutes from downtown and in an interesting neighborhood. I'm going to be 30 and working at a firm downtown. Access to good running and (road) biking is a plus. I'd prefer a small building to a big apartment complex. Budget is around $1,000/m but I could go up to $1200-1300/m for the right place.

Thanks!

Every place in the area will be less than 20 minutes drive to downtown.

You'd probably like the grove, from what I can tell. The central west end will have a lot of grad students and yuppies; it's not the most interesting area, but there are lots of restaurants, bars, and young people. Clayton is pretty cool too, and if you had a spot near I-64, can be downtown in 15 minutes.

Also, basically nothing would be out of reach with your budget.

[Fiero85]

Any tips on neighborhoods to look at or avoid? I'm looking for this coming year. Ideally, I'd like to be <20 minutes from downtown and in an interesting neighborhood. I'm going to be 30 and working at a firm downtown. Access to good running and (road) biking is a plus. I'd prefer a small building to a big apartment complex. Budget is around $1,000/m but I could go up to $1200-1300/m for the right place.

Thanks!

Commuting by car or other?

I'll have a car. Although, if public transit's an option, that's a plus (but far from required).

Gotcha. Well it seems like this should be pretty easy then. Try the neighborhoods near Forest Park or Tower Grove Park to be near good running/biking and within 20 min of downtown when driving.

For the Forest Park area: the CWE (Central West End - the approx area between Forest Park, I64, Sarah St near SLU, and McPherson Ave) will be the most expensive, but also nicest and with better public transit access if desired. Not as many small buildings either, but a good amount on the outer parts of the CWE. I'd say check that area out first but don't jump on anything right away, without checking out other areas that might fit your preferences better and for less money. Overall your best bet though, and your budget is very doable in any of these places.

Tower Grove is another good option, with a nice park, and for less money than the CWE. You'll be more in need of a car there, because it is south of the train line. None of the buildings are high rises. Worth checking out.

Idk how much you bike/run and how much you care about changing routes, but between the areas close to Forest Park and Tower Grove park, I think you'll be well served. St. Louis is a driving town, so our public transit is pretty weak. Getting within walking distance of a train station will probably be a hinderence to your other goals, but getting within biking distance should be pretty easy in the CWE and decently easy in Tower Grove. Check it out on Google maps to see the distances. In person research and walking around on top of online browsing will work wonders if you can manage it too, not everything is current online.

Clayton is another possibility but that's also more expensive than Tower Grove, about the same as CWE, has a nice park but relatively less park space, and would be stretching the 20 mins from downtown thing. It's more like 30 with traffic door to door IME (I work in Clayton and live closer to downtown).

Good luck!

ETA: Kinda scooped, but oh well. I disagree that Clayton to downtown is 15 mins during rush hour though, fwiw. Depends how close to 64 on both ends, but that's overly optimistic with any traffic involved.

[abl]

Thanks all -- that's super helpful. I didn't love Clayton while I was there (I had some interviews in Clayton) so I think I can rule that or anything super similar out. Any thoughts about Soulard?

[jdmonkey]

Any tips on neighborhoods to look at or avoid? I'm looking for this coming year. Ideally, I'd like to be <20 minutes from downtown and in an interesting neighborhood. I'm going to be 30 and working at a firm downtown. Access to good running and (road) biking is a plus. I'd prefer a small building to a big apartment complex. Budget is around $1,000/m but I could go up to $1200-1300/m for the right place.

Thanks!

You can live like a king for that rent as close to campus as the Delmar Loop. I pay $820 something per month and have washing machine, dish washer, dryer, i pod docs, full kitchen with granite bar set up etc. I take MetroLink to work downtown (stadium exit) and it is around 20 min. The Loop is walking distance to Forest park, and you can easily bike there. It is about a 15 minute walk to campus.

[Fiero85]

You could definitely get a place in Soulard to fit your preferences but it's gonna take more effeort/leg work.

Pros - It's gonna be by far the cheapest of the ones discussed so far, and within biking distance of downtown and the Arch park. So that's a plus. If you find a nice place in Soulard it's still gonna be cheap as can be.

Cons - older, not as nice of a neighborhood in terms of updates/renovations, and much louder/wild on holidays and some weekends (Mardi Gras is like a an annual party tornado in Soulard, a hurricane of people drunk on hurricanes and AB products). Not sure if you care but just a heads up on that. Might fit your "interesting" criterion lol