Columbia students taking questions Forum

[jbagelboy]

I am wildly speculating here, but I wouldn't take the job if I were some clerkship director at Chicago, NYU or even UVA.

If you take the job with CLS, you know that Columbia would be looking to you to turn around the clerkship program. The bar for success would be impossibly high. Why put yourself through that when you have a well established clerkship pipeline where you can just do everything on autopilot.

I don't know that "impossibly high" is the right word. There is no reason why Columbia shouldn't be able to place students in clerkships as well as schools like Virginia

I mean yea this

Also Columbia already places students into clerkships as well as these schools, it just takes longer due to the lack of support. It's not easier for a UVA or Chicago student at X% of the class to obtain a competitive federal clerkship than same X% of the class at Columbia. If it was better organized with more support, not as many students would have to wait

[FascinatedWanderer]

That's just false.

http://excessofdemocracy.com/blog/2014/ ... -2011-2013

[Nebby]

That's just false.

http://excessofdemocracy.com/blog/2014/ ... -2011-2013

I think he's talking about alumni clerks. Half the CLS clerks I know (c/o 16) have start dates in fall 2017. Sadly that ranking you posted only tracks entry level clerks (clerks that begin the same year they graduated). There's scant data available on alumni clerks. I should do some research.

[Nebby]

Lack of institutional support is the biggest hindrance. Other top schools with great institutional support go out of their way to try and get their students clerkships. Hell they even place questionable students as is. There's some COA9 clerk who wants to do trial litigation in the clerkship forum who didn't know d court clerkships are better for placement with lit firms. How do you land a coveted COA9 spot and not know the basics of clerkship exit ops: Great institutional support that basically spoonfed them into the spot. (imo)

[FascinatedWanderer]

According to the page he tacked clerkships obtained through 3L. Which should include clerkships that start a year or more out- it just wouldn't include clerkships obtained after graduation.

[Nebby]

According to the page he tacked clerkships obtained through 3L. Which should include clerkships that start a year or more out- it just wouldn't include clerkships obtained after graduation.

Ah, I wonder where the raw data comes from. Only place I know to look are the ABA reports but they only show entry level clerks.

[dabigchina]

I am wildly speculating here, but I wouldn't take the job if I were some clerkship director at Chicago, NYU or even UVA.

If you take the job with CLS, you know that Columbia would be looking to you to turn around the clerkship program. The bar for success would be impossibly high. Why put yourself through that when you have a well established clerkship pipeline where you can just do everything on autopilot.

I don't know that "impossibly high" is the right word. There is no reason why Columbia shouldn't be able to place students in clerkships as well as schools like Virginia

I agree there is no reason why CLS shouldn't be able to place as well as UVA. However, it has failed to do so year after year. IF I were a candidate for clerkship advisor I would look at that and conclude (probably correctly) that my job is going to be an uphill battle.

[iamgeorgebush]

Lack of institutional support is the biggest hindrance. Other top schools with great institutional support go out of their way to try and get their students clerkships. Hell they even place questionable students as is. There's some COA9 clerk who wants to do trial litigation in the clerkship forum who didn't know d court clerkships are better for placement with lit firms. How do you land a coveted COA9 spot and not know the basics of clerkship exit ops: Great institutional support that basically spoonfed them into the spot. (imo)

There is another possible explanation as to why CLS does not place as many students in clerkships as other highly ranked schools: CLS students just tend not to want clerkships as often as students at those other schools. There are two reasons to suspect this might be the case:

(1) There might be a selection effect—that is, people who choose to go to CLS instead of U. Chicago and other similar schools might not want to do clerkships in the first place. This could be because (a) there is a self-reinforcing effect wherein students choose where to attend law school partially on the basis of clerkship stats (and so students who care about clerkships choose schools that send more students into clerkships), (b) people who want to do corporate work (for which clerkships are, according to many, a big waste of time and opportunity cost $) choose to go to CLS due to its excellent BigLaw placement rate and location in NYC, or (c) a bit of both.

(2) Even if there is not a selection effect taking place before entry to CLS, CLS students tend to end up doing corporate work much more frequently than non-CLS students (perhaps due to CLS's location in NYC and/or the general culture at the school), and again, clerkships are not very useful for corporate work (according to many).

To the extent that these factors are responsible for CLS's lower clerkship-placement stats, perhaps there's not much to worry about. Of course, to the extent that students who genuinely want (or would benefit from) clerkships but do not get them due to CLS's lack of institutional support, that would be a problem. But we shouldn't just assume this is happening without additional evidence.

[FastRun]

I am wildly speculating here, but I wouldn't take the job if I were some clerkship director at Chicago, NYU or even UVA.

If you take the job with CLS, you know that Columbia would be looking to you to turn around the clerkship program. The bar for success would be impossibly high. Why put yourself through that when you have a well established clerkship pipeline where you can just do everything on autopilot.

I don't know that "impossibly high" is the right word. There is no reason why Columbia shouldn't be able to place students in clerkships as well as schools like Virginia

I agree there is no reason why CLS shouldn't be able to place as well as UVA. However, it has failed to do so year after year. IF I were a candidate for clerkship advisor I would look at that and conclude (probably correctly) that my job is going to be an uphill battle.

I agree that getting hired into that position is clearly an offer to lead an uphill battle, but it seems like at this point Columbia would be willing to pay a commensurate salary to someone who the administration thought could get it done. The concern about clerkship placement is raised frequently enough by potential students that it seems like that would be a priority. But we're also talking about a pool of, like, a couple dozen people in the entire world who have extensive clerkship advising experience at a top law school, so I suppose it's possible that it just didn't work out this time. Maybe the guy they hired will outperform his credentials and we'll all be pleasantly surprised.

[FastRun]

Lack of institutional support is the biggest hindrance. Other top schools with great institutional support go out of their way to try and get their students clerkships. Hell they even place questionable students as is. There's some COA9 clerk who wants to do trial litigation in the clerkship forum who didn't know d court clerkships are better for placement with lit firms. How do you land a coveted COA9 spot and not know the basics of clerkship exit ops: Great institutional support that basically spoonfed them into the spot. (imo)

There is another possible answer to these questions about why CLS does not place as many students in clerkships as other highly ranked schools: CLS students just tend not to want clerkships as often as students at those other schools. There are two reasons to suspect this might be the case:

(1) There might be a selection effect—that is, people who choose to go to CLS instead of U. Chicago and other similar schools might not want to do clerkships in the first place. This could be because (a) there is a self-reinforcing effect wherein students choose where to attend law school partially on the basis of clerkship stats (and so students who care about clerkships choose schools that send more students into clerkships), (b) people who want to do corporate work (for which clerkships are, according to many, a big waste of time and opportunity cost $) choose to go to CLS due to its excellent BigLaw placement rate and location in NYC, or (c) a bit of both.

(2) Even if there is not a selection effect taking place before entry to CLS, CLS students tend to end up doing corporate work much more frequently than non-CLS students (perhaps due to CLS's location in NYC and/or the general culture at the school), and again, clerkships are not very useful for corporate work (according to many).

To the extent that these factors are responsible for CLS's lower clerkship-placement stats, perhaps there's not much to worry about. Of course, to the extent that students who genuinely want (or would benefit from) clerkships but do not get them due to CLS's lack of institutional support, that would be a problem. But we shouldn't just assume this is happening without additional evidence.

All true, and the evidence we'd need is data about the academic credentials of Columbia students versus students at comparable schools who do begin the clerkship application process, and data about what their eventual results are. Unfortunately I don't think there's a way to access or even seriously estimate that data, so we're left to speculate.

[FascinatedWanderer]

The self selection thing may account for the rate of clerkship placement but it doesn't explain the quality of the clerkships we get.

Take it from an absolute top student who went through the process, we don't get the support we need to pick up feeder clerkships.

[dabigchina]

The self selection thing may account for the rate of clerkship placement but it doesn't explain the quality of the clerkships we get.

Take it from an absolute top student who went through the process, we don't get the support we need to pick up feeder clerkships.

"Self selection" makes me cringe. What are we, GULC now?

[Nebby]

I think there'd be less self-selection out of not pursuing a clerkship if the school provided better institutional support.

[RSN]

The self selection thing may account for the rate of clerkship placement but it doesn't explain the quality of the clerkships we get.

Take it from an absolute top student who went through the process, we don't get the support we need to pick up feeder clerkships.

I've always seen two issues. First is professors not willing to go to bat for most students. If you don't have a tight relationship with one of the few star professors who will make calls to judges, which is partly luck and partly kicking ass grade-wise in 1L, it's a much tougher task. To be fair I don't know what other schools do, but I don't see what schools can do really to get students clerkships other ways unless judges have close relationships with the school administration itself (e.g. Easterbrook and Posner at Chicago) -- and we do have that with many 2d Cir. and SDNY judges actually, who hire CLS kids every year in decent numbers.

But that raises the second issue, which is that based on what I'd heard before school and my experiences here so far, Columbia students are by and large very narrowly focused on where they'll clerk -- it's pretty much New York federal clerkships or bust, with a smattering of 9th Cir/California district courts, DC, and occasionally states where people are from. But of course 2/9/DC and the district courts in NY/DC/LA/SF are the most competitive for obvious reasons, and so if people strike out they just end up not bothering, or maybe considering applying in 3L or once they're at a firm for a year, which of course doesn't show up in the numbers.

[jbagelboy]

the clerkship office has started to post total numbers including alumni: http://www.law.columbia.edu/social-just ... clerkships

In 2016, there were 94 CLS students starting federal clerkships (106 including state supreme courts). That's about 23% of any given class year in federal clerkships--of course it doesn't break down that way because a subset of individuals will clerk twice, but the internal figures I've seen suggest about 17-18% of the graduating class at CLS ultimately do clerk. That's consistent with patterns at other schools: at Harvard, about 25% of the class will ultimately clerk, even though only 15-17% are reported by the ABA, and at Chicago, over 20% will clerk.

As Nebby pointed out, the excess of democracy blog takes data from the ABA, which is fatally flawed in the current clerkship hiring environment. Very, very few columbia students will clerk directly after graduation. Multiple times the number that do so (which is usually about 25) will clerk at some point over the next couple years. It doesn't have an impact on your career when your clerkship begins (just your personal life) so it's silly to continue counting some and not others.

[jbagelboy]

According to the page he tacked clerkships obtained through 3L. Which should include clerkships that start a year or more out- it just wouldn't include clerkships obtained after graduation.

This is wrong. (The blogger is wrong in his description.) The ABA data only considers your employment status at 9 months after graduation, which is the data he pulled from. That's CLS's 7% figure. It does not include individuals who applied for and received clerkships during law school that start more than 9 months after they graduate. Of course, in 2011-2013, this was slightly less common of a practice, but it still happened.

[FascinatedWanderer]

Keep in mind also that Columbia's ineptitude has earned us a poor reputation with many very important judges, such that they refuse to hire from us even though they may be willing to hire from lower ranked schools.

These judges include Griffith, Garland, Wilkinson, and Silberman.

That list doesn't include very influential judges who have simply never hired from us, even though they may not have a specific antipathy to the school- Sutton, Gorsuch, Pryor, Calabresi etc.

[RSN]

Keep in mind also that Columbia's ineptitude has earned us a poor reputation with many very important judges, such that they refuse to hire from us even though they may be willing to hire from lower ranked schools.

These judges include Griffith, Garland, Wilkinson, and Silberman.

That list doesn't include very influential judges who have simply never hired from us, even though they may not have a specific antipathy to the school- Sutton, Gorsuch, Pryor, Calabresi etc.

Showing your FedSoc colors a little here, bud, token inclusion of Garland and Guido notwithstanding. Plus the D.C. Cir. judges, at least, are increasingly hiring Yale and Harvard rising 2Ls in June, and that's not a Columbia-exclusive problem. I'm sorry you got burned but spreading info like this is not a good look.

[Nebby]

If he's fedsoc he probably didn't land them because his personality is too... colorful.

[RSN]

If he's fedsoc he probably didn't land them because his personality is too... colorful.

I mean, for most of the judges in that list, FedSoc is at least a major plus factor if not a prerequisite.

[Thelaw23]

If he's fedsoc he probably didn't land them because his personality is too... colorful.

I mean, for most of the judges in that list, FedSoc is at least a major plus factor if not a prerequisite.

Is it likely that you will be disadvantaged if you put FedSoc on your resume when applying for a jerb? Considering that the majority of the legal field is liberal/democrat.

[jbagelboy]

If he's fedsoc he probably didn't land them because his personality is too... colorful.

I mean, for most of the judges in that list, FedSoc is at least a major plus factor if not a prerequisite.

Is it likely that you will be disadvantaged if you put FedSoc on your resume when applying for a jerb? Considering that the majority of the legal field is liberal/democrat.

No

[Dr_OIT]

Hey all — I'm visiting for ASP this week and getting excited!

(1) I've heard a lot about Columbia being "where fun goes to die" and that everyone is miserable. And that it's especially cutthroat. Is there much truth to that? Having lived in NYC, I know it's easy for people to do their own thing. Is there really a sense of community at CLS?

Also, (2) I've visited the library in JG, and it didn't really strike me as the most inviting place, so I was wondering if there were other places on campus (whether in JG or other Columbia buildings) where some law students study? Other than in their apartments or coffee shops lol.

[Nebby]

If he's fedsoc he probably didn't land them because his personality is too... colorful.

I mean, for most of the judges in that list, FedSoc is at least a major plus factor if not a prerequisite.

Is it likely that you will be disadvantaged if you put FedSoc on your resume when applying for a jerb? Considering that the majority of the legal field is liberal/democrat.

No one in fedsoc would apply to the type of places where they're fedsoc membership would disqualify them

[jbagelboy]

Hey all — I'm visiting for ASP this week and getting excited!

(1) I've heard a lot about Columbia being "where fun goes to die" and that everyone is miserable. And that it's especially cutthroat. Is there much truth to that? Having lived in NYC, I know it's easy for people to do their own thing. Is there really a sense of community at CLS?

Also, (2) I've visited the library in JG, and it didn't really strike me as the most inviting place, so I was wondering if there were other places on campus (whether in JG or other Columbia buildings) where some law students study? Other than in their apartments or coffee shops lol.

My experience was so different from (1) that I can't even really relate to the thought. Also, the proverb is that Chicago is where fun goes to die, not Columbia.

Columbia had some shit qualities, but it was always a fun time. Great community, smart students who know how to drink, fun city.

Regarding study spaces, Butler library is nice, as are some of the upper west side cafes like maxx on amsterdam and irving farm. A lot of people also study in their apartments or in JG.