UVA Law Students Taking Questions Forum

[adil91]

I am from Georgia, would that help?

[interestedbyestander]

No, I think UVa is located a little more north.

[de5igual]

ties to atlanta aren't as necessary coming from uva (or duke or vandy, for that matter). those schools are viewed as elite southern schools and will beat out anything short of HYS (and maybe CC)

[im_blue]

I'm going to guess top 1/3 to be safe.
/0L speculation

[Kohinoor]

I'm going to guess top 1/3 to be safe.
/0L speculation

You must be a 0L ~Top 20%

[YCrevolution]

..

[LSlobbyist]

So, from what I can see from browsing TLS, there seems to be an emerging consensus that UVA is on the rise, at least from a rankings perspective.

What's the basis for this line of thinking? Is it just because the entire 1L class of UVA Law is on the board (and I certainly do appreciate your insight) and is passionately cheerleading for the school, or are there substantive facts behind this assumption?

[jawsthegreat]

So, from what I can see from browsing TLS, there seems to be an emerging consensus that UVA is on the rise, at least from a rankings perspective.

What's the basis for this line of thinking? Is it just because the entire 1L class of UVA Law is on the board (and I certainly do appreciate your insight) and is passionately cheerleading for the school, or are there substantive facts behind this assumption?

The basis for this thinking is that the admissions office appears to be gaming the rankings, thus showing their dedication to move up in the rankings. The 1L class also increased the stats quite favorably to the pier schools.

Also, for whatever reason UVA students and 0Ls appear to do a better (at least more passionate) job of trolling than any other school.

[extragnarls]

So, from what I can see from browsing TLS, there seems to be an emerging consensus that UVA is on the rise, at least from a rankings perspective.

What's the basis for this line of thinking? Is it just because the entire 1L class of UVA Law is on the board (and I certainly do appreciate your insight) and is passionately cheerleading for the school, or are there substantive facts behind this assumption?

I pay a lot less attention to USNEWS now that I'm actually in school, but the optimism may have to do with the numerical quality of UVA's recent classes. Of course, it's one part gaming the rankings and one part attracting top-tier students, but UVA has managed to significantly up its median GPA/LSAT numbers (relative to the rest of that tier, including Berk, Mich, Penn). I'm fairly sure the medians at UVA are now just a shade under the numbers you see at Chicago, NYU. And at the same time they've been more selective in admissions.

None of this is necessarily all that meaningful, but it could certainly have an effect on the USNEWS rank for the school.

[vanwinkle]

Agree with everything the above posters said re: gaming the rankings and boosting the numbers for incoming classes, but it's more than that. UVA consistently ranks very strongly in surveys among its peer schools and among judges, indicating that its actual legal prestige is at or above its USNWR ranking. This is further reflected by the fact that the school is building up a reputation for placement of students into clerkships after graduating, including four SCOTUS clerks in the last year.

Not everyone can go to HYS, but for those that can't, UVA has a very strong and positive reputation in the legal profession and the school is continuing to build on that and add to it. I think that's why people are enthusiastic about the school.

[Wahoo1L]

So, from what I can see from browsing TLS, there seems to be an emerging consensus that UVA is on the rise, at least from a rankings perspective.

What's the basis for this line of thinking? Is it just because the entire 1L class of UVA Law is on the board (and I certainly do appreciate your insight) and is passionately cheerleading for the school, or are there substantive facts behind this assumption?

UVA has trouble with the bullshit portions of USNews ranking such as faculty:student ratio and expenditures per student. If you look at UVA's peer assessment scores, and admissions statistics they're equal or better than most of their peer schools. Here is a quick comparison for you of the entering statistics

Entering Statistics Comparison
Michigan & Virginia: UVA has a better 25th GPA & 75th GPA, better 75th LSAT, and equal 25th LSAT.
Penn & Virginia: UVA has a better 25th GPA & 75th GPA, equal LSAT range.
Duke & Virginia: UVA has better 25th GPA & 75th GPA, and better 25th & 75th LSAT scores.
Northwestern & Virginia: UVA has better 25th GPA & 75th GPA, equal LSAT 25th and Northwestern has a better 75th LSAT.

Peer Assessment & Legal Field Assessment Score Comparison
Michigan & Virginia: UVA has 0.1 better lawyer/judge score, Michigan has a 0.1 better peer assessment score.
Penn & Virginia: UVA has 0.2 better lawyer/judge score, UVA & Penn have equal peer assessment scores.
Duke & Virginia: UVA has 0.2 better lawyer/judge score, UVA has a 0.1 better peer assessment score.
Northwestern & Virginia: UVA has a 0.3 better lawyer/judge score, UVA has a 0.3 better peer assessment score.

There are three things that are holding Virginia back in USNews. First, UVA has over enrolled for the past two years which means that more people chose to attend than the admissions office anticipated. Although logically having a bunch of students with excellent numbers choose your school over other peer schools ought to increase your ranking, USNews punishes this because it dilutes expenditures per student and student:faculty ratio.

Second, UVA has the lowest tuition out of any T14 school (Berkeley might temporarily be cheaper until their tuition hikes kick in) which also adversely impacts its rankings. Ironically, Berkeley's tuition hikes will actually help their USNews ratings because USNews views this as spending more per student. Just from glancing at other schools tuition, UVA is 2k cheaper than Michigan, 3k cheaper than Northwestern, and 5k cheaper than Cornell. Because students pay less to attend UVA than peer institutions, USNews punishes the schools ranking.

Finally, although the biggest factors in a school's ranking is its peer assessment scores & entering admission statistics, USNews magnifies the other portions of the ratings by scaling each factor. For example, although UVA has probably the 7th or 8th best entering admissions statistics (it's better in LSAT than Berkeley, but Berkeley has higher GPAs), its peer schools are only a small bit behind out of the 170 or so other law schools. However, UVA might be in the 100's for highest faculty:student ratio in comparison to schools such as Duke are probably in the low 10's or 20's. This disproportionately hurts a school that does poorly in these categories.

This is especially true in areas such as employment statistics where 1 or 2 students might be the difference between being the top ranked school in employed at graduation, and the 20th ranked school in employed at graduation. The employed at graduation statistic is particularly troublesome given that schools can easily game this ranking by hiring students to work in the library or some other temporary job. Further, differences between a 97.5% and 98% employed at graduation number come down to single students in most cases which, in mind, is not particularly relevant to a schools ability to place students. To highlight just how absurd employment statistics are you should look at how University of Kentucky and University of Utah score better than twelve out of the top fourteen schools in Employed 9 Months after Graduation.

Note: I'm not trying to say that Virginia is better than it's peer schools [although subjectively I would choose it over any of them], I'm simply trying to show how absurd US News is. In my mind, a school that has better entering numbers, better peer and judge assessment scores, and an excellent bar passage rate should be ranked ahead of another school with worse numbers even if it spends less per student and has a higher faculty:student ratio.

[Kohinoor]

So, from what I can see from browsing TLS, there seems to be an emerging consensus that UVA is on the rise, at least from a rankings perspective.

What's the basis for this line of thinking? Is it just because the entire 1L class of UVA Law is on the board (and I certainly do appreciate your insight) and is passionately cheerleading for the school, or are there substantive facts behind this assumption?

UVA has trouble with the bullshit portions of USNews ranking such as faculty:student ratio and expenditures per student. If you look at UVA's peer assessment scores, and admissions statistics they're equal or better than most of their peer schools. Here is a quick comparison for you of the entering statistics

Entering Statistics Comparison
Michigan & Virginia: UVA has a better 25th GPA & 75th GPA, better 75th LSAT, and equal 25th LSAT.
Penn & Virginia: UVA has a better 25th GPA & 75th GPA, equal LSAT range.
Duke & Virginia: UVA has better 25th GPA & 75th GPA, and better 25th & 75th LSAT scores.
Northwestern & Virginia: UVA has better 25th GPA & 75th GPA, equal LSAT 25th and Northwestern has a better 75th LSAT.

Peer Assessment & Legal Field Assessment Score Comparison
Michigan & Virginia: UVA has 0.1 better lawyer/judge score, Michigan has a 0.1 better peer assessment score.
Penn & Virginia: UVA has 0.2 better lawyer/judge score, UVA & Penn have equal peer assessment scores.
Duke & Virginia: UVA has 0.2 better lawyer/judge score, UVA has a 0.1 better peer assessment score.
Northwestern & Virginia: UVA has a 0.3 better lawyer/judge score, UVA has a 0.3 better peer assessment score.

There are three things that are holding Virginia back in USNews. First, UVA has over enrolled for the past two years which means that more people chose to attend than the admissions office anticipated. Although logically having a bunch of students with excellent numbers choose your school over other peer schools ought to increase your ranking, USNews punishes this because it dilutes expenditures per student and student:faculty ratio.

Second, UVA has the lowest tuition out of any T14 school (Berkeley might temporarily be cheaper until their tuition hikes kick in) which also adversely impacts its rankings. Ironically, Berkeley's tuition hikes will actually help their USNews ratings because USNews views this as spending more per student. Just from glancing at other schools tuition, UVA is 2k cheaper than Michigan, 3k cheaper than Northwestern, and 5k cheaper than Cornell. Because students pay less to attend UVA than peer institutions, USNews punishes the schools ranking.

Finally, although the biggest factors in a school's ranking is its peer assessment scores & entering admission statistics, USNews magnifies the other portions of the ratings by scaling each factor. For example, although UVA has probably the 7th or 8th best entering admissions statistics (it's better in LSAT than Berkeley, but Berkeley has higher GPAs), its peer schools are only a small bit behind out of the 170 or so other law schools. However, UVA might be in the 100's for highest faculty:student ratio in comparison to schools such as Duke are probably in the low 10's or 20's. This disproportionately hurts a school that does poorly in these categories.

This is especially true in areas such as employment statistics where 1 or 2 students might be the difference between being the top ranked school in employed at graduation, and the 20th ranked school in employed at graduation. The employed at graduation statistic is particularly troublesome given that schools can easily game this ranking by hiring students to work in the library or some other temporary job. Further, differences between a 97.5% and 98% employed at graduation number come down to single students in most cases which, in mind, is not particularly relevant to a schools ability to place students. To highlight just how absurd employment statistics are you should look at how University of Kentucky and University of Utah score better than twelve out of the top fourteen schools in Employed 9 Months after Graduation.

Note: I'm not trying to say that Virginia is better than it's peer schools [although subjectively I would choose it over any of them], I'm simply trying to show how absurd US News is. In my mind, a school that has better entering numbers, better peer and judge assessment scores, and an excellent bar passage rate should be ranked ahead of another school with worse numbers even if it spends less per student and has a higher faculty:student ratio.

Maybe this is the year that UVA games the stats and breaks the USNWR system. 100% Yield on an entering class of 200 & offering unemployed grads RA jobs = UVa in the T6.

[kurama20]

Agree with everything the above posters said re: gaming the rankings and boosting the numbers for incoming classes, but it's more than that. UVA consistently ranks very strongly in surveys among its peer schools and among judges, indicating that its actual legal prestige is at or above its USNWR ranking. This is further reflected by the fact that the school is building up a reputation for placement of students into clerkships after graduating, including four SCOTUS clerks in the last year.

Not everyone can go to HYS, but for those that can't, UVA has a very strong and positive reputation in the legal profession and the school is continuing to build on that and add to it. I think that's why people are enthusiastic about the school.

So, from what I can see from browsing TLS, there seems to be an emerging consensus that UVA is on the rise, at least from a rankings perspective.

What's the basis for this line of thinking? Is it just because the entire 1L class of UVA Law is on the board (and I certainly do appreciate your insight) and is passionately cheerleading for the school, or are there substantive facts behind this assumption?

UVA has trouble with the bullshit portions of USNews ranking such as faculty:student ratio and expenditures per student. If you look at UVA's peer assessment scores, and admissions statistics they're equal or better than most of their peer schools. Here is a quick comparison for you of the entering statistics

Entering Statistics Comparison
Michigan & Virginia: UVA has a better 25th GPA & 75th GPA, better 75th LSAT, and equal 25th LSAT.
Penn & Virginia: UVA has a better 25th GPA & 75th GPA, equal LSAT range.
Duke & Virginia: UVA has better 25th GPA & 75th GPA, and better 25th & 75th LSAT scores.
Northwestern & Virginia: UVA has better 25th GPA & 75th GPA, equal LSAT 25th and Northwestern has a better 75th LSAT.

Peer Assessment & Legal Field Assessment Score Comparison
Michigan & Virginia: UVA has 0.1 better lawyer/judge score, Michigan has a 0.1 better peer assessment score.
Penn & Virginia: UVA has 0.2 better lawyer/judge score, UVA & Penn have equal peer assessment scores.
Duke & Virginia: UVA has 0.2 better lawyer/judge score, UVA has a 0.1 better peer assessment score.
Northwestern & Virginia: UVA has a 0.3 better lawyer/judge score, UVA has a 0.3 better peer assessment score.

There are three things that are holding Virginia back in USNews. First, UVA has over enrolled for the past two years which means that more people chose to attend than the admissions office anticipated. Although logically having a bunch of students with excellent numbers choose your school over other peer schools ought to increase your ranking, USNews punishes this because it dilutes expenditures per student and student:faculty ratio.

Second, UVA has the lowest tuition out of any T14 school (Berkeley might temporarily be cheaper until their tuition hikes kick in) which also adversely impacts its rankings. Ironically, Berkeley's tuition hikes will actually help their USNews ratings because USNews views this as spending more per student. Just from glancing at other schools tuition, UVA is 2k cheaper than Michigan, 3k cheaper than Northwestern, and 5k cheaper than Cornell. Because students pay less to attend UVA than peer institutions, USNews punishes the schools ranking.

Finally, although the biggest factors in a school's ranking is its peer assessment scores & entering admission statistics, USNews magnifies the other portions of the ratings by scaling each factor. For example, although UVA has probably the 7th or 8th best entering admissions statistics (it's better in LSAT than Berkeley, but Berkeley has higher GPAs), its peer schools are only a small bit behind out of the 170 or so other law schools. However, UVA might be in the 100's for highest faculty:student ratio in comparison to schools such as Duke are probably in the low 10's or 20's. This disproportionately hurts a school that does poorly in these categories.

This is especially true in areas such as employment statistics where 1 or 2 students might be the difference between being the top ranked school in employed at graduation, and the 20th ranked school in employed at graduation. The employed at graduation statistic is particularly troublesome given that schools can easily game this ranking by hiring students to work in the library or some other temporary job. Further, differences between a 97.5% and 98% employed at graduation number come down to single students in most cases which, in mind, is not particularly relevant to a schools ability to place students. To highlight just how absurd employment statistics are you should look at how University of Kentucky and University of Utah score better than twelve out of the top fourteen schools in Employed 9 Months after Graduation.

Note: I'm not trying to say that Virginia is better than it's peer schools [although subjectively I would choose it over any of them], I'm simply trying to show how absurd US News is. In my mind, a school that has better entering numbers, better peer and judge assessment scores, and an excellent bar passage rate should be ranked ahead of another school with worse numbers even if it spends less per student and has a higher faculty:student ratio.

I'm shocked that people are finally admitting this. The truth is that UVA may be one of the most underrated top 14 schools. In the areas that count (employment prospects and legal prestige--which are basically the same thing) UVA is hardcore top 10, and only blown out by HYS. CC are a little stronger, and UVA is even with NYU. US News really screws a school for not gaming the rankings the way NYU and Boalt do, but it looks like they have decided to nip that issue in the bud. Frankly if NYU deserves the "top 6" designation so does UVA. The only area where NYU is really stronger is their faculty quality--which is much less important than the employment prospects.

[Wahoo1L]

Maybe this is the year that UVA games the stats and breaks the USNWR system. 100% Yield on an entering class of 200 & offering unemployed grads RA jobs = UVa in the T6.

I think the new Dean of Admissions is doing a great job of gaming the rankings, and we should move up this year. The new policy of allowing people to ED throughout the entire application process will hopefully allow us to not over enroll and at the same time it will increase our yield. If we can just trim down the class size a bit, I would bet we could hit #7 given that we're already doing great with our peer scores and admission numbers. US News really likes the small schools.

I'm shocked that people are finally admitting this. The truth is that UVA may be one of the most underrated top 14 schools. In the areas that count (employment prospects and legal prestige--which are basically the same thing) UVA is hardcore top 10, and only blown out by HYS. CC are a little stronger, and UVA is even with NYU. US News really screws a school for not gaming the rankings the way NYU and Boalt do, but it looks like they have decided to nip that issue in the bud. Frankly if NYU deserves the "top 6" designation so does UVA. The only area where NYU is really stronger is their faculty quality--which is much less important than the employment prospects.

UVA probably is underrated given its numbers are a bit better than its peer schools; however, I'd bet that it's placement numbers are fairly equal to the other MVP schools, as well as Duke and Northwestern. Also, NYU has a definite advantage in placing people into elite NYC law firms. Outside of NYC, I doubt it has that much of an advantage.

[kurama20]

Maybe this is the year that UVA games the stats and breaks the USNWR system. 100% Yield on an entering class of 200 & offering unemployed grads RA jobs = UVa in the T6.

I think the new Dean of Admissions is doing a great job of gaming the rankings, and we should move up this year. The new policy of allowing people to ED throughout the entire application process will hopefully allow us to not over enroll and at the same time it will increase our yield. If we can just trim down the class size a bit, I would bet we could hit #7 given that we're already doing great with our peer scores and admission numbers. US News really likes the small schools.

I'm shocked that people are finally admitting this. The truth is that UVA may be one of the most underrated top 14 schools. In the areas that count (employment prospects and legal prestige--which are basically the same thing) UVA is hardcore top 10, and only blown out by HYS. CC are a little stronger, and UVA is even with NYU. US News really screws a school for not gaming the rankings the way NYU and Boalt do, but it looks like they have decided to nip that issue in the bud. Frankly if NYU deserves the "top 6" designation so does UVA. The only area where NYU is really stronger is their faculty quality--which is much less important than the employment prospects.

UVA probably is underrated given its numbers are a bit better than its peer schools; however, I'd bet that it's placement numbers are fairly equal to the other MVP schools, as well as Duke and Northwestern. Also, NYU has a definite advantage in placing people into elite NYC law firms. Outside of NYC, I doubt it has that much of an advantage.

Yeah that's what I meant when I said that.

[dgouzoul]

This thread all of a sudden makes me very happy

[RVP11]

Great post, Wahoo1L.

One thing, though. I thought USNWR was using medians rather than 25/75s? In that case, UVA would actually beat Berkeley in GPA this year (3.85 v. 3.83).

[vamedic03]

Heads up - more grades just went up on SIS

[dgouzoul]

hope you all got As

[thepunisher24]

random question, but didn't Paul Tagliabue speak at the law school last semester? did any of you attend?

[Wahoo1L]

Great post, Wahoo1L.

One thing, though. I thought USNWR was using medians rather than 25/75s? In that case, UVA would actually beat Berkeley in GPA this year (3.85 v. 3.83).

Yeah, that looks right. Here's the link to US News methodology; I'm assuming that UVA must really really suck at expenditures per student because we're doing well in all of the other areas.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... l?PageNr=1

[vanwinkle]

random question, but didn't Paul Tagliabue speak at the law school last semester? did any of you attend?

I missed this because it was during my LRW section, I think. It was during something else I couldn't miss... it was either LRW or a softball game, I forget which.

[RVP11]

Heads up - more grades just went up on SIS

WTF at Crim being our first one.

Contracts prof has had like 5 weeks.

Torts prof is grading super short exams.

CivPro had a ton of multiple choice.

[YCrevolution]

..

[Cavalier]

Heads up - more grades just went up on SIS

WTF at Crim being our first one.

Contracts prof has had like 5 weeks.

Torts prof is grading super short exams.

CivPro had a ton of multiple choice.

If it makes you feel better, crim's the only grade I have, too.

Same here. And I think we all have different crim professors.