So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate? Forum

[luckenmeister]

For what it's worth, I graduated law school in 2012, clerked for a year, and have practiced since. Yes, I do troll on here occasionally, but only the especially dense posters can't distinguish my troll posts from the serious ones.

I only had to look at your first post lol (I'm sure you have many similar stories). I just don't get why someone would spend the time to create and continually respond to a detailed thread based on faux troubles you had while taking the LSAT in 2013?

Ironic. I mean, what's your excuse for repeatedly (and sometimes hostilely) making the same inane points over and over in an apparent attempt to rile up others? Do you honestly think that you're not trolling this thread?

I didn't think so, but ok. My b for being hostile by simply asking questions and not nodding my head in agreement at everything said on this thread

[luckenmeister]

Am I the only one who noticed the deleted post? Looks like Luckenmeister posted on his alt "SamuelDanforth" by a mistake.

I haven't deleted any of my posts nor am I "SamuelDanforth"

I just want to know why biglaw associates like OP don't leave instead of staying. Someone suggested that this was answered, but it wasn't. I understand that OP needs to stay in NYC and that he prefers a non-law job. But that doesn't explain why he hasn't attempted to get a job as a ticket puncher or nypd officer as was earlier glorified. I also don't understand why OP hasn't tried to switch to a different NYC law firm, as I know for a fact (just as you know with your targeting of SA firms with solid work/life balance), that firms have tangible differences. OP has stayed at the same place for 8 years, and very well may benefit from transferring to a firm with a better work/life balance.

[anonQs2019]

Thank you for this thread, great content and a lot inside information that is otherwise unaccessible to those outside of bigly.

I'm going to be an 0L in August at a top 20 law school. I'm going to leave with close to 100k in debt. Law school is definitely my best option coming out of UG because I went to a small private UG and majored in Liberal Arts degree.

I still haven't made up my mind on what type of career I would want after law school, but because family is important to me I would not want to have OPs experience. Would those who are in Biglaw recommend working a gov type job? Something in regulation? I know they're do not obviously pay as high as biglaw but I'm guessing 5 years with a gov job one could make over 6 figures and have decent benefits (including vacation and time off)? I'm really just wondering if you guys were to start over but still went to law school what type of jobs you would look for knowing what you know now.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Thank you for this thread, great content and a lot inside information that is otherwise unaccessible to those outside of bigly.

I'm going to be an 0L in August at a top 20 law school. I'm going to leave with close to 100k in debt. Law school is definitely my best option coming out of UG because I went to a small private UG and majored in Liberal Arts degree.

I still haven't made up my mind on what type of career I would want after law school, but because family is important to me I would not want to have OPs experience. Would those who are in Biglaw recommend working a gov type job? Something in regulation? I know they're do not obviously pay as high as biglaw but I'm guessing 5 years with a gov job one could make over 6 figures and have decent benefits (including vacation and time off)? I'm really just wondering if you guys were to start over but still went to law school what type of jobs you would look for knowing what you know now.

Retake until you're going to school for free.

[Mad Hatter]

BernieTrump: the hero TLS needs, but not the one it deserves right now.

[jbagelboy]

Thank you for this thread, great content and a lot inside information that is otherwise unaccessible to those outside of bigly.

I'm going to be an 0L in August at a top 20 law school. I'm going to leave with close to 100k in debt. Law school is definitely my best option coming out of UG because I went to a small private UG and majored in Liberal Arts degree.

I still haven't made up my mind on what type of career I would want after law school, but because family is important to me I would not want to have OPs experience. Would those who are in Biglaw recommend working a gov type job? Something in regulation? I know they're do not obviously pay as high as biglaw but I'm guessing 5 years with a gov job one could make over 6 figures and have decent benefits (including vacation and time off)? I'm really just wondering if you guys were to start over but still went to law school what type of jobs you would look for knowing what you know now.

one of the problems is that the six figure salary plus cushy benefits, stable, interesting 9-6PM gov't job is actually really tough to get, even for people at top schools (include those schools ranked higher than yours). it's not like everyone at a t6 school chooses biglaw over other nicer options. Biglaw is the default because it's the easiest to get. So even when you go to a top school you are signing on to most likely have to work at a large firm.

if you go to a top school and you do very well and you're persistent (i.e., no #2LOL for you), you can find other relatively high paying, interesting, worthwhile jobs. but that's a lot of conditions.

[lavarman84]

Am I the only one who noticed the deleted post? Looks like Luckenmeister posted on his alt "SamuelDanforth" by a mistake.

I haven't deleted any of my posts nor am I "SamuelDanforth"

I just want to know why biglaw associates like OP don't leave instead of staying. Someone suggested that this was answered, but it wasn't. I understand that OP needs to stay in NYC and that he prefers a non-law job. But that doesn't explain why he hasn't attempted to get a job as a ticket puncher or nypd officer as was earlier glorified. I also don't understand why OP hasn't tried to switch to a different NYC law firm, as I know for a fact (just as you know with your targeting of SA firms with solid work/life balance), that firms have tangible differences. OP has stayed at the same place for 8 years, and very well may benefit from transferring to a firm with a better work/life balance.

The post by "SamuelDanforth" responded to rpupkin's post with almost identical language to the language you used about him posting in the LSAT thread and how easy it was to find. And then the post was deleted pretty quickly. Looked pretty suspicious.

Why didn't OP get a job as a ticket puncher or a cop? Just a guess, he doesn't want to work either of those jobs.

Why hasn't he switched to a different NYC firm? Already answered. He doesn't feel any advantage of the switch is great enough for it to be worth it. As for my targeting a firm with a good reputation for work/life balance, the firm I accepted a SA with isn't a New York firm and the job isn't in NYC (or another major market). From what others have said, biglaw in NYC tends to be tough all over. There are differences, but as the OP has said, they aren't great enough for the move to be worth it to him. Especially with how much he dislikes the area he practices in.

[Alive97]

OP also said he hasn't gotten call backs for non law jobs, which is a well known problem because those employers assume you're overqualified or have no relevant experience or will bail for the right law job.

[Tls2016]

Am I the only one who noticed the deleted post? Looks like Luckenmeister posted on his alt "SamuelDanforth" by a mistake.

I haven't deleted any of my posts nor am I "SamuelDanforth"

I just want to know why biglaw associates like OP don't leave instead of staying. Someone suggested that this was answered, but it wasn't. I understand that OP needs to stay in NYC and that he prefers a non-law job. But that doesn't explain why he hasn't attempted to get a job as a ticket puncher or nypd officer as was earlier glorified. I also don't understand why OP hasn't tried to switch to a different NYC law firm, as I know for a fact (just as you know with your targeting of SA firms with solid work/life balance), that firms have tangible differences. OP has stayed at the same place for 8 years, and very well may benefit from transferring to a firm with a better work/life balance.

The post by "SamuelDanforth" responded to rpupkin's post with almost identical language to the language you used about him posting in the LSAT thread and how easy it was to find. And then the post was deleted pretty quickly. Looked pretty suspicious.

Why didn't OP get a job as a ticket puncher or a cop? Just a guess, he doesn't want to work either of those jobs.

Why hasn't he switched to a different NYC firm? Already answered. He doesn't feel any advantage of the switch is great enough for it to be worth it. As for my targeting a firm with a good reputation for work/life balance, the firm I accepted a SA with isn't a New York firm and the job isn't in NYC (or another major market). From what others have said, biglaw in NYC tends to be tough all over. There are differences, but as the OP has said, they aren't great enough for the move to be worth it to him. Especially with how much he dislikes the area he practices in.

No one is going to hire OP for either of those jobs with his educational qualifications. They won't believe he wants the job or that he will stay in the job.(both of which are true.) having a highly specialized degree and a high income prevents you from being hired at blue collar jobs, unless it's your family company. Even unemployed lawyers have trouble getting these jobs, much less someone who went to top schools and worked for one of the best law firms in the world.

[pancakes3]

I mean, even if you don't believe the OP, it doesn't completely nullify his experience. You could just take it as another data point and move on. Given this data point and lots of other practicing BL TLSers data points, you can make your own fully informed decisions. Fighting the hypo is not a good instinct.

[tomwatts]

Thank you for this thread, great content and a lot inside information that is otherwise unaccessible to those outside of bigly.

I'm going to be an 0L in August at a top 20 law school. I'm going to leave with close to 100k in debt. Law school is definitely my best option coming out of UG because I went to a small private UG and majored in Liberal Arts degree.

I still haven't made up my mind on what type of career I would want after law school, but because family is important to me I would not want to have OPs experience. Would those who are in Biglaw recommend working a gov type job? Something in regulation? I know they're do not obviously pay as high as biglaw but I'm guessing 5 years with a gov job one could make over 6 figures and have decent benefits (including vacation and time off)? I'm really just wondering if you guys were to start over but still went to law school what type of jobs you would look for knowing what you know now.

one of the problems is that the six figure salary plus cushy benefits, stable, interesting 9-6PM gov't job is actually really tough to get, even for people at top schools (include those schools ranked higher than yours). it's not like everyone at a t6 school chooses biglaw over other nicer options. Biglaw is the default because it's the easiest to get. So even when you go to a top school you are signing on to most likely have to work at a large firm.

if you go to a top school and you do very well and you're persistent (i.e., no #2LOL for you), you can find other relatively high paying, interesting, worthwhile jobs. but that's a lot of conditions.

One of the underappreciated options is state/local government. I interned at a County Counsel's office during one of my summers, and it seemed like a pretty good gig. The hours were totally reasonable (mostly 9-5/6 ish), and the pay was much higher than I was expecting. I think entry-level was low six figures — I think this is unusually high for county government, but it just goes to show that looking around might find you something better than you were expecting. And it seemed like the work in any of the sections would be fairly interesting (relatively speaking). They tended to recruit from local law schools, although if you went to one of the better ones nearby (T14) you had a better shot.

I have less direct experience with state government, but it seems like the same is true there.

Now, of course, some states and local governments pay terribly, and some of the jobs (e.g., FOIA-type things) are reputed to be excruciatingly boring. But if you poke around a little, there are some cool things to be found, and they're not nearly as hard to get as the most selective federal jobs in DC (such as an appellate section in DOJ).

[pancakes3]

DOJ field office is the dream but that's borderline a unicorn job. Some of them are 1-man offices.

[luckenmeister]

The post by "SamuelDanforth" responded to rpupkin's post with almost identical language to the language you used about him posting in the LSAT thread and how easy it was to find. And then the post was deleted pretty quickly. Looked pretty suspicious.

I have no reason to beat around the bush

Why didn't OP get a job as a ticket puncher or a cop? Just a guess, he doesn't want to work either of those jobs.

You're probably right, which makes it unreasonable to glorify such positions over biglaw

Why hasn't he switched to a different NYC firm? Already answered. He doesn't feel any advantage of the switch is great enough for it to be worth it. As for my targeting a firm with a good reputation for work/life balance, the firm I accepted a SA with isn't a New York firm and the job isn't in NYC (or another major market). From what others have said, biglaw in NYC tends to be tough all over. There are differences, but as the OP has said, they aren't great enough for the move to be worth it to him. Especially with how much he dislikes the area he practices in.

I can't feel all that bad when someone just assumes that a switch won't work and doesn't at least try and see. Isn't there a significant difference between a WLRK/Cravath/Skadden and a firm like Paul Hastings NYC?

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

One of the underappreciated options is state/local government. I interned at a County Counsel's office during one of my summers, and it seemed like a pretty good gig. The hours were totally reasonable (mostly 9-5/6 ish), and the pay was much higher than I was expecting. I think entry-level was low six figures

I don't believe that at all. Matter of fact, I'd be very surprised if it were even close to six figures. Do you have a link? Should all be public info.

[lavarman84]

I can't feel all that bad when someone just assumes that a switch won't work and doesn't at least try and see. Isn't there a significant difference between a WLRK/Cravath/Skadden and a firm like Paul Hastings NYC?

I don't know. But I'd bet a practicing biglaw lawyer in NYC (with 8 years of experience) would have a better understanding of the culture, work, and hours at the firms available to him than a 0L or a 2L (me) would.

[anonQs2019]

Thank you for this thread, great content and a lot inside information that is otherwise unaccessible to those outside of bigly.

I'm going to be an 0L in August at a top 20 law school. I'm going to leave with close to 100k in debt. Law school is definitely my best option coming out of UG because I went to a small private UG and majored in Liberal Arts degree.

I still haven't made up my mind on what type of career I would want after law school, but because family is important to me I would not want to have OPs experience. Would those who are in Biglaw recommend working a gov type job? Something in regulation? I know they're do not obviously pay as high as biglaw but I'm guessing 5 years with a gov job one could make over 6 figures and have decent benefits (including vacation and time off)? I'm really just wondering if you guys were to start over but still went to law school what type of jobs you would look for knowing what you know now.

one of the problems is that the six figure salary plus cushy benefits, stable, interesting 9-6PM gov't job is actually really tough to get, even for people at top schools (include those schools ranked higher than yours). it's not like everyone at a t6 school chooses biglaw over other nicer options. Biglaw is the default because it's the easiest to get. So even when you go to a top school you are signing on to most likely have to work at a large firm.

if you go to a top school and you do very well and you're persistent (i.e., no #2LOL for you), you can find other relatively high paying, interesting, worthwhile jobs. but that's a lot of conditions.

One of the underappreciated options is state/local government. I interned at a County Counsel's office during one of my summers, and it seemed like a pretty good gig. The hours were totally reasonable (mostly 9-5/6 ish), and the pay was much higher than I was expecting. I think entry-level was low six figures — I think this is unusually high for county government, but it just goes to show that looking around might find you something better than you were expecting. And it seemed like the work in any of the sections would be fairly interesting (relatively speaking). They tended to recruit from local law schools, although if you went to one of the better ones nearby (T14) you had a better shot.

I have less direct experience with state government, but it seems like the same is true there.

Now, of course, some states and local governments pay terribly, and some of the jobs (e.g., FOIA-type things) are reputed to be excruciatingly boring. But if you poke around a little, there are some cool things to be found, and they're not nearly as hard to get as the most selective federal jobs in DC (such as an appellate section in DOJ).

Thanks for that, I'll be looking more into state/local gov jobs. I was also thinking something along the lines of a federal prosecutor.

[anonQs2019]

Thank you for this thread, great content and a lot inside information that is otherwise unaccessible to those outside of bigly.

I'm going to be an 0L in August at a top 20 law school. I'm going to leave with close to 100k in debt. Law school is definitely my best option coming out of UG because I went to a small private UG and majored in Liberal Arts degree.

I still haven't made up my mind on what type of career I would want after law school, but because family is important to me I would not want to have OPs experience. Would those who are in Biglaw recommend working a gov type job? Something in regulation? I know they're do not obviously pay as high as biglaw but I'm guessing 5 years with a gov job one could make over 6 figures and have decent benefits (including vacation and time off)? I'm really just wondering if you guys were to start over but still went to law school what type of jobs you would look for knowing what you know now.

one of the problems is that the six figure salary plus cushy benefits, stable, interesting 9-6PM gov't job is actually really tough to get, even for people at top schools (include those schools ranked higher than yours). it's not like everyone at a t6 school chooses biglaw over other nicer options. Biglaw is the default because it's the easiest to get. So even when you go to a top school you are signing on to most likely have to work at a large firm.

if you go to a top school and you do very well and you're persistent (i.e., no #2LOL for you), you can find other relatively high paying, interesting, worthwhile jobs. but that's a lot of conditions.

Yeah I understand that BigFed is more selective than even BigLaw, however when looking at LST numbers for students that go into gov. sector the numbers are as high as 20% for some schools that are outside of T14. For instance, W&M puts 21.4% of its students into gov. employment. Now we know the percentage of those students working for BigFed is really low, and if so then what are those other students employed doing? Local/State? If so I'm guessing the hours are more reasonable, the benefits are decent, and depending on the state/locality pay might not be that bad.

[pancakes3]

DA is gov and so are state/municipal legal departments. Don't look at "gov" placement and think "bigfed"

[jrass]

The idea that associates don't get job offers in non-legal fields is a flame. In only a few months, I've gotten offers to be a mystery shopper, an escrow agent for a Nigerian prince and got another offer on my voicemail early this afternoon. The caller didn't specify what the job entailed and what company he was calling from, but informed me that I have already won.

[PMan99]

I can't feel all that bad when someone just assumes that a switch won't work and doesn't at least try and see. Isn't there a significant difference between a WLRK/Cravath/Skadden and a firm like Paul Hastings NYC?

I don't know. But I'd bet a practicing biglaw lawyer in NYC (with 8 years of experience) would have a better understanding of the culture, work, and hours at the firms available to him than a 0L or a 2L (me) would.

It's also worth saying that an 8th year associate doesn't have a ton of lateral options to other biglaw firms. 3-5 is really the peak and it drops off pretty precipitously after that.

[crit_racer]

The idea that associates don't get job offers in non-legal fields is a flame. In only a few months, I've gotten offers to be a mystery shopper, an escrow agent for a Nigerian prince and got another offer on my voicemail early this afternoon. The caller didn't specify what the job entailed and what company he was calling from, but informed me that I have already won.

180

[Danger Zone]

The idea that associates don't get job offers in non-legal fields is a flame. In only a few months, I've gotten offers to be a mystery shopper, an escrow agent for a Nigerian prince and got another offer on my voicemail early this afternoon. The caller didn't specify what the job entailed and what company he was calling from, but informed me that I have already won.

*luckenmeister nods sagely*

[0heL]

The post by "SamuelDanforth" responded to rpupkin's post with almost identical language to the language you used about him posting in the LSAT thread and how easy it was to find. And then the post was deleted pretty quickly. Looked pretty suspicious.

I have no reason to beat around the bush

Why didn't OP get a job as a ticket puncher or a cop? Just a guess, he doesn't want to work either of those jobs.

You're probably right, which makes it unreasonable to glorify such positions over biglaw

Why hasn't he switched to a different NYC firm? Already answered. He doesn't feel any advantage of the switch is great enough for it to be worth it. As for my targeting a firm with a good reputation for work/life balance, the firm I accepted a SA with isn't a New York firm and the job isn't in NYC (or another major market). From what others have said, biglaw in NYC tends to be tough all over. There are differences, but as the OP has said, they aren't great enough for the move to be worth it to him. Especially with how much he dislikes the area he practices in.

I can't feel all that bad when someone just assumes that a switch won't work and doesn't at least try and see. Isn't there a significant difference between a WLRK/Cravath/Skadden and a firm like Paul Hastings NYC?

This is all a huge flame. Sure, on average a V3 associate will work more than a V50/V100 associate. But how much you work is an extremely random metric that totally depends on your partner and practice group. I once met a former Schulte Roth (V100) associate that would regularly bill 2900+ hours a year. Meanwhile, a friend of mine at Skadden has told me about he knows at least a few people who straight up leave at 6:30 everyday and don't really work weekends. They've all been there for at least 3 years. It's very hard for a V3 associate to say "oh, I work too much at my current firm, I'll just lateral to Paul Hasting's M&A group because life will be easier." That is far from guaranteed or even predictable.

On top of that, laterals are always viewed with skepticism. Most lateral hires don't really work out in the end. The wrong lateral move can kill a legal career. That, plus the far from certain proposition that less prestigious firm will work you less, oftentimes make lateraling a bad decision. I can totally get why BernieTrump doesn't want to do it.

Also, Paul Hastings NYC is a known sweatshop that finds ways to juice their "associate satisfaction" rankings on Vault (whatever that means).

[lavarman84]

Thank you for this thread, great content and a lot inside information that is otherwise unaccessible to those outside of bigly.

I'm going to be an 0L in August at a top 20 law school. I'm going to leave with close to 100k in debt. Law school is definitely my best option coming out of UG because I went to a small private UG and majored in Liberal Arts degree.

I still haven't made up my mind on what type of career I would want after law school, but because family is important to me I would not want to have OPs experience. Would those who are in Biglaw recommend working a gov type job? Something in regulation? I know they're do not obviously pay as high as biglaw but I'm guessing 5 years with a gov job one could make over 6 figures and have decent benefits (including vacation and time off)? I'm really just wondering if you guys were to start over but still went to law school what type of jobs you would look for knowing what you know now.

one of the problems is that the six figure salary plus cushy benefits, stable, interesting 9-6PM gov't job is actually really tough to get, even for people at top schools (include those schools ranked higher than yours). it's not like everyone at a t6 school chooses biglaw over other nicer options. Biglaw is the default because it's the easiest to get. So even when you go to a top school you are signing on to most likely have to work at a large firm.

if you go to a top school and you do very well and you're persistent (i.e., no #2LOL for you), you can find other relatively high paying, interesting, worthwhile jobs. but that's a lot of conditions.

One of the underappreciated options is state/local government. I interned at a County Counsel's office during one of my summers, and it seemed like a pretty good gig. The hours were totally reasonable (mostly 9-5/6 ish), and the pay was much higher than I was expecting. I think entry-level was low six figures — I think this is unusually high for county government, but it just goes to show that looking around might find you something better than you were expecting. And it seemed like the work in any of the sections would be fairly interesting (relatively speaking). They tended to recruit from local law schools, although if you went to one of the better ones nearby (T14) you had a better shot.

I have less direct experience with state government, but it seems like the same is true there.

Now, of course, some states and local governments pay terribly, and some of the jobs (e.g., FOIA-type things) are reputed to be excruciatingly boring. But if you poke around a little, there are some cool things to be found, and they're not nearly as hard to get as the most selective federal jobs in DC (such as an appellate section in DOJ).

Thanks for that, I'll be looking more into state/local gov jobs. I was also thinking something along the lines of a federal prosecutor.

There's a ton of competition for those jobs. May have to work a few years of biglaw to get that job.(or work as a state prosecutor) An AUSA told me that a typical path now is clerkship -> biglaw -> USAO. But you can get it after working as a state prosecutor. Just depends on who is doing the hiring and the office. There's also the option of honors programs for entry level hiring but that's also super competitive.

Basically, it's tough but attainable. You'll just need to work hard and do well. And stay motivated if that's the path you want to take. There are many different paths you can take!

[luckenmeister]

The idea that associates don't get job offers in non-legal fields is a flame. In only a few months, I've gotten offers to be a mystery shopper, an escrow agent for a Nigerian prince and got another offer on my voicemail early this afternoon. The caller didn't specify what the job entailed and what company he was calling from, but informed me that I have already won.

*luckenmeister nods sagely*

Lol