UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions Forum

[Wedge Antilles]

I'm not sure how else to interpret your prediction that because I "slid by" and didn't take all of the wonderful opportunities available to me in the corporate lab that I will do the same as an attorney.

[corplab123]

it's even more frustrating when inaccurate things might cause really high-quality people to avoid Lab.

guys the internet's lying and we will only get the pleb students in corp lab now

but remember not to be too full of yourself, UofC kids

Despite this guy's rudeness, people do avoid lab because of (mostly inaccurate, incomplete picture) posts like his that claim grading is wholly arbitrary. Especially people who care about their grades a lot (the LR type). Those are the people who are consistently the easiest to work with and who produce the highest quality work. I've had a few 1Ls/0Ls PM me saying "thanks for providing the other side, I was really worried about lab after reading that but now I feel like I have a better picture of what's going on." People should be careful to make sure that when they are blowing off steam, they aren't ruining things for others. (if that's your goal, so be it. I'm happy to let people decide for themselves once they have all the information).

[corplab123]

I'm not sure how else to interpret your prediction that because I "slid by" and didn't take all of the wonderful opportunities available to me in the corporate lab that I will do the same as an attorney.

Gotcha. I didn't mean to imply that you are a lazy person and will emulate your lab experience in your career and I'm sorry if I implied that. Lots of people take lab to do as little work as possible and try to get an easy grade and I get that many of these people aren't going to do the same at a firm (many of my classmates who were like you in lab are very successful in their careers). Just wanted to say that lab emulates the real world in a lot of ways, and that if you were to continue "with that attitude," that things would be rough at a firm.

I can see how you thought that's what I meant from what I said, though. Again, I didn't mean to be inflammatory. Sorry.

[Wedge Antilles]

I am very familiar with how things work in the real world and my "attitude" in corporate lab is not only reflective of many of my peers, but also based on my experiences there. It's still amazing to me how many people want to call me crazy for having the opinions I do.

[corplab123]

I am very familiar with how things work in the real world and my "attitude" in corporate lab is not only reflective of many of my peers, but also based on my experiences there. It's still amazing to me how many people want to call me crazy for having the opinions I do.

I don't think you're crazy and I think you are entitled to your own opinion.

But the "I want to slide by" attitude isn't as common as you might think in corporate lab. Like you see throughout law school, there are a lot of people who act like they aren't working hard but (behind the scenes) are kicking ass and working a lot. And then there are a lot of people who just want an easy grade and don't do very well because things don't come as easy to them as they do to you. People exactly like you aren't super common. Maybe that's where the misunderstanding is coming from - you can't universalize your experience.

[Wedge Antilles]

I'm not sure what you mean by universalizing my experience. I had a horrible experience with the corporate lab and it doesn't have much to do with how much or little work I put in.

[beepboopbeep]

it's even more frustrating when inaccurate things might cause really high-quality people to avoid Lab.

guys the internet's lying and we will only get the pleb students in corp lab now

but remember not to be too full of yourself, UofC kids

Despite this guy's rudeness, people do avoid lab because of (mostly inaccurate, incomplete picture) posts like his that claim grading is wholly arbitrary. Especially people who care about their grades a lot (the LR type). Those are the people who are consistently the easiest to work with and who produce the highest quality work. I've had a few 1Ls/0Ls PM me saying "thanks for providing the other side, I was really worried about lab after reading that but now I feel like I have a better picture of what's going on." People should be careful to make sure that when they are blowing off steam, they aren't ruining things for others. (if that's your goal, so be it. I'm happy to let people decide for themselves once they have all the information).

Yea that's a fair point and a reasonable post. I get the argument, even being on the outside and having no skin in the game w/r/t corp lab. I'm mostly giving MaybeSo shit because of the progression from:

1. "Be more humble, UofC kids! Because you all suck!"
2. Long post about how much everyone else's work product was trash
3. Internet lies are bad because they drive "high-quality people" away

without stopping to consider that maybe part of the reason people don't like the structure of corp lab is vindictive, self-superior people like him who judge a person's quality by how much they care about the long-term success of a law school clinic.

Yep I realize that is, like, a description that fits a decent number of seniors and partners to a T. You earn that a teensy bit more when you've built a practice over 10-20 years. But judgmental power trips from people who are just graduating and a year ahead of the people whose work product they are evaluating... just lol. If you think like MaybeSo, you might like corp lab. Let's just leave this all there and stop the internet pissing contest that one else here cares about.

[MaybeSoMaybeNot]

it's even more frustrating when inaccurate things might cause really high-quality people to avoid Lab.

guys the internet's lying and we will only get the pleb students in corp lab now

but remember not to be too full of yourself, UofC kids

Despite this guy's rudeness, people do avoid lab because of (mostly inaccurate, incomplete picture) posts like his that claim grading is wholly arbitrary. Especially people who care about their grades a lot (the LR type). Those are the people who are consistently the easiest to work with and who produce the highest quality work. I've had a few 1Ls/0Ls PM me saying "thanks for providing the other side, I was really worried about lab after reading that but now I feel like I have a better picture of what's going on." People should be careful to make sure that when they are blowing off steam, they aren't ruining things for others. (if that's your goal, so be it. I'm happy to let people decide for themselves once they have all the information).

Yea that's a fair point and a reasonable post. I get the argument, even being on the outside and having no skin in the game w/r/t corp lab. I'm mostly giving MaybeSo shit because of the progression from:

1. "Be more humble, UofC kids! Because you all suck!"
2. Long post about how much everyone else's work product was trash
3. Internet lies are bad because they drive "high-quality people" away

without stopping to consider that maybe part of the reason people don't like the structure of corp lab is vindictive, self-superior people like him who judge a person's quality by how much they care about the long-term success of a law school clinic.

Yep I realize that is, like, a description that fits a decent number of seniors and partners to a T. You earn that a teensy bit more when you've built a practice over 10-20 years. But judgmental power trips from people who are just graduating and a year ahead of the people whose work product they are evaluating... just lol. If you think like MaybeSo, you might like corp lab. Let's just leave this all there and stop the internet pissing contest that one else here cares about.

It astonishes me that you think I'm the one encouraging this pissing contest. But trust that I'm 100% on-board with this discussion ending.

[corplab123]

If you think like MaybeSo, you might like corp lab.

You seem like a cool guy and I have no issues with the rest of what you've posted. But we're not all like this asshole (lol yes, even though I drink the kool-aid hard I'll admit they exist ).

[MaybeSoMaybeNot]

If you think like MaybeSo, you might like corp lab.

You seem like a cool guy and I have no issues with the rest of what you've posted. But we're not all like this asshole (lol yes, even though I drink the kool-aid hard I'll admit they exist ).

I recognize you're just bandwagoning here, but what exactly did I post that you found offensive? That a bad reputation (arbitrary grading) isn't good for a clinic because it dissuades quality students from joining? That poor grades are often the product of bad work product? That students can tend not to be self-aware?

[corplab123]

If you think like MaybeSo, you might like corp lab.

You seem like a cool guy and I have no issues with the rest of what you've posted. But we're not all like this asshole (lol yes, even though I drink the kool-aid hard I'll admit they exist ).

I recognize you're just bandwagoning here, but what exactly did I post that you found offensive? That a bad reputation (arbitrary grading) isn't good for a clinic because it dissuades quality students from joining? That poor grades are often the product of bad work product? That students can tend not to be self-aware?

Edit: Because you're being rude.

[MaybeSoMaybeNot]

If you think like MaybeSo, you might like corp lab.

You seem like a cool guy and I have no issues with the rest of what you've posted. But we're not all like this asshole (lol yes, even though I drink the kool-aid hard I'll admit they exist ).

I recognize you're just bandwagoning here, but what exactly did I post that you found offensive? That a bad reputation (arbitrary grading) isn't good for a clinic because it dissuades quality students from joining? That poor grades are often the product of bad work product? That students can tend not to be self-aware?

You're just kind of being an asshole about it, dude. I don't know you but based on your posts alone I wouldn't want to grab a beer with you and I don't blame them for thinking similarly.

I already said they shouldn't dissuade people from joining and that student work can be pretty bad and sometimes takes lots of revisions. You basically repeated those points in an assholish way and you're otherwise poorly representing the lab. Be constructive. We're all friends here.

I admit I came off a little harsh, mostly because people doing shit like calling DZ a "bigoted, racist asshole" really upsets me. He's a good guy that isn't out to fuck people over, as much as people believe that. Some of the ad hom's also upset me because I took my job as a SD really seriously, and fought like hell for people that worked hard. I don't think I'm better than anyone.

But get off your high horse. From your previous post: "Get ready for the real world. You'll probably slide by at a firm for a few years with that attitude, but if you're looking to make a career out of this law thing, you need to acknowledge where you fell short instead of casting blame. Growing is a big part of law school." Seriously? Yeah, you sound like a charmer as well.

Anyways, I'll leave y'all to it.

[Wedge Antilles]

That is actually the thing that I think is not up for interpretation. I really cannot tell you how many times I heard zarfes make jokes about dead babies, hookers, Mormons, women, sex and any other number of very appropriate topics. It's not really that I was offended, I'm just shocked he gets away with it.

[beepboopbeep]

If you think like MaybeSo, you might like corp lab.

You seem like a cool guy and I have no issues with the rest of what you've posted. But we're not all like this asshole (lol yes, even though I drink the kool-aid hard I'll admit they exist ).

Yea fair enough. I don't mean to impugn corp lab or imply all the student leaders are like MaybeSo - hopefully it didn't come off that way.

Wedge I think all Maybe's saying with the Zarfes stuff is like: someone can be a good dude and still make super off-color jokes. I mean... that describes certain TLSers who mostly just alt these days, let's put it that way. Obviously it's totally different being off color in a public setting as a UofC prof. But I'm never gonna come down on someone for making inappropriate jokes. And though I haven't interacted much with Zarfes, I can't believe he'd be much worse than Epstein.

[Wedge Antilles]

That's only one aspect of him that informs my opinion so I would disagree that he's like Epstein who's just a harmless weirdo from a different era.

[elterrible78]

If you think like MaybeSo, you might like corp lab.

You seem like a cool guy and I have no issues with the rest of what you've posted. But we're not all like this asshole (lol yes, even though I drink the kool-aid hard I'll admit they exist ).

Yea fair enough. I don't mean to impugn corp lab or imply all the student leaders are like MaybeSo - hopefully it didn't come off that way.

Wedge I think all Maybe's saying with the Zarfes stuff is like: someone can be a good dude and still make super off-color jokes. I mean... that describes certain TLSers who mostly just alt these days, let's put it that way. Obviously it's totally different being off color in a public setting as a UofC prof. But I'm never gonna come down on someone for making inappropriate jokes. And though I haven't interacted much with Zarfes, I can't believe he'd be much worse than Epstein.

In terms of off-color, he's in a whole different league from Epstein. To quote my friend Jules Winnfield, it ain't even the same fuckin' sport. That said, I never had any kind of problem whatsoever with DZ, and like him very much (I'm extremely hard to offend, though, and will admit to being surprised that he gets away with as much as he does). DF, on the other hand...well, I don't think he's a bad guy per se, but I get the feeling he's been kicked around a lot (and continues to be kicked around), and he kind of turns around and does the same to less-powerful others (i.e., the students). I've had a couple moments when I saw him pull some extremely bush-league shit, but he's also been helpful at other points. There were plenty of times that I was super annoyed by him, but I kind of thing he's trying to find his way in a somewhat difficult situation.

For the most part, I didn't have a problem with team leads or student directors, although there were definitely some who were the absolute fucking worst kind of petty-power wielders. One in particular for whom I harbor active malice.

In terms of the work...well, I think "transactional clinic" was a bit of a misnomer, and I got the feeling that the lion's share of corp lab work is just writing research memos. Which is fine, and part of transacational practice, and probably the majority of the work the clients want to give us because that's what we know how to do by the time 2L starts. But we frequently hear that law students are not prepared for transacational work upon graduation, and I am not sure that corp lab does a whole hell of a lot to remedy that (maybe preparation for dealing with firm life more generally, but not necessarily anything specific to transactional work).

If I had to do it all over again, I'd probably take a pass, but obviously everyone's experience is different.

[beepboopbeep]

If you think like MaybeSo, you might like corp lab.

You seem like a cool guy and I have no issues with the rest of what you've posted. But we're not all like this asshole (lol yes, even though I drink the kool-aid hard I'll admit they exist ).

Yea fair enough. I don't mean to impugn corp lab or imply all the student leaders are like MaybeSo - hopefully it didn't come off that way.

Wedge I think all Maybe's saying with the Zarfes stuff is like: someone can be a good dude and still make super off-color jokes. I mean... that describes certain TLSers who mostly just alt these days, let's put it that way. Obviously it's totally different being off color in a public setting as a UofC prof. But I'm never gonna come down on someone for making inappropriate jokes. And though I haven't interacted much with Zarfes, I can't believe he'd be much worse than Epstein.

In terms of off-color, he's in a whole different league from Epstein. To quote my friend Jules Winnfield, it ain't even the same fuckin' sport. That said, I never had any kind of problem whatsoever with DZ, and like him very much (I'm extremely hard to offend, though, and will admit to being surprised that he gets away with as much as he does).

Honestly that's the first thing anyone's said in this whole thread that makes me want to take corp lab

[Robb]

[corplab123]

That is actually the thing that I think is not up for interpretation. I really cannot tell you how many times I heard zarfes make jokes about dead babies, hookers, Mormons, women, sex and any other number of very appropriate topics. It's not really that I was offended, I'm just shocked he gets away with it.

I'll concede that this happens. Like you, I wasn't offended. It's a strange sense of humor but he's 100% harmless and I found it charming and it made class fun to go to (clients seem to enjoy it, too). I talked to him about it way back when and he seemed really concerned that some students were offended by what he said. I've heard from a few classes under me that he has reeled it in as of late.

But don't not take the lab over this. That's silly.

[corplab123]

DF, on the other hand...well, I don't think he's a bad guy per se, but I get the feeling he's been kicked around a lot (and continues to be kicked around), and he kind of turns around and does the same to less-powerful others (i.e., the students). I've had a couple moments when I saw him pull some extremely bush-league shit, but he's also been helpful at other points. There were plenty of times that I was super annoyed by him, but I kind of thing he's trying to find his way in a somewhat difficult situation.

It's probably because his predecessor Naveen was awesome. Big shoes to fill.

ETA: Do they not have you guys edit contracts and stuff like that anymore? I did stuff like edit MSAs and small-time settlement letters.

[UofCforme]

Serious question: Everybody taking corp lab is a 2L or 3L that has already gone through OCI and is presumably not interested in public interest work. Why does anyone care what their grades are as long as you come away with something that isn't just egregiously awful?

This is not intended to be a snide comment. I have just been looking forward to not having to care about my grades (at least not having to care very much) for a long time and I legitimately want to know.

[elterrible78]

Serious question: Everybody taking corp lab is a 2L or 3L that has already gone through OCI and is presumably not interested in public interest work. Why does anyone care what their grades are as long as you come away with something that isn't just egregiously awful?

This is not intended to be a snide comment. I have just been looking forward to not having to care about my grades (at least not having to care very much) for a long time and I legitimately want to know.

This is a really good question, so let me give you a case-in-point to see if you can understand:

First quarter of corp lab for me, I had a teammate who literally did nothing productive the entire quarter. (S)he was combative and petulant with teammates, student leadership, faculty, and even clients. (S)he attended maybe two or three class meetings. The only work (s)he did do was roundly criticized by the faculty as being substantially sub-par. The rest of the team did what was, in the stated opinion of the faculty itself, top quality work throughout the quarter. The rest of us were, to one degree or another, critical of our non-performing teammate in our peer reviews. We all got the exact same median grade. In most classes, you can get your grade and say to yourself, "Well, I really have no idea what anyone else's exam looked like, so this very well may be the grade I deserve." Not so much, in this case.

Fast forward to the end of the next quarter: the problematic teammate from the first quarter really got his/her act together, produced much better quality work, and was roundly praised in peer evaluations for his/her improvement. (S)he ended up getting a 173 for the quarter. 173. In corp lab. Now, I suppose you could take the "Well, (s)he was graded too high the first quarter, so the abysmal second quarter grade just evened things out." But that's kind of bullshit. I can't imagine what I would have felt like in his/her situation, after having been criticized, put in a much better effort in response, and been repaid with a grade like that.

I think this kind of thing is irksome, despite the fact that for many of us grades literally don't really matter anymore. This is going to sound far more over-the-top than I mean for it to, but it's irksome in the way that any injustice that has no practical impact on your life is irksome. It also undercuts the idea that some substantial amount of effort is put into grading each individual in the class on the merits of that person's work (I'm sure the truth on that lies somewhere between the extremes of "It's all about how much DZ likes you!" on one end and "It's all about your attitude, professionalism, and output!" on the other).

Anyway, I like to think I have a pretty nuanced and unbiased view of corp lab's positives and negatives, so again, I'm happy to take any questions and give non-hyperbolic responses by PM. Although I literally LOLed when I saw the change to the thread title, it's actually a little embarrassing to know that this thing has gotten so out of hand in here.

[CorporateLab]

I keep seeing advocates of the Corporate Lab say "take it to PMs," but the whole point of posting here was to get a conversation going so that students who are thinking of joining the Corporate Lab could read various views about it instead of just hearing one person's opinions about it via PM.

It seems like all of the people on here who became student directors really liked the Corporate Lab (no surprise there), but only about 5 people end up becoming student directors each year, so I honestly don't think that your opinions are representative. That obviously doesn't mean that your opinions are invalid, but it does mean that you are the type of person that the faculty really liked, which is generally the kind of people that most of us had a hard time dealing with for the reasons mentioned on the previous pages. (Your own comments evince the pretentious traits we all had issues with; e.g., corplab123: "Even with me, who this stuff kind of comes naturally to" / MaybeSoMaybeNot: "I will say that your average UoC student thinks far too highly of themselves")

With regard to the comment that smart/capable people avoid the Corporate Lab because of rumors that its grading is arbitrary, that is untrue. There were plenty of K&E scholars and Law Review students in the Corporate Lab this past year, and several of them quit after a quarter or two because the work assignments and the structure of the class were awful. All of my friends on Law Review who didn't join the Corporate Lab did so not because they were worried about arbitrary grades, but rather because they were interested in doing litigation. While it is true that some teams may get to work on somewhat-interesting/useful matters, other teams get stuck doing 50-state surveys or researching random business issues that have nothing to do with the law. Based on the assignments alone, you can have either a useful or a useless experience in the Lab. If you get stuck on a shitty assignment with a shitty team lead and a shitty student director (all of which are very likely to happen), it can and most likely will be a horrible experience.

[sandwhich]

Do they actually check ids before letting you on the 171? Asking for my wife who won't be a student.

[PariSiamo]

The new thread title is great.