WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions Forum

[Birdnals]

A large % of people in the top of the class do (comparatively) poorly in legal writing too, but that doesn't make it unfair to grade the subject.

Is the bolded true, or do they just do about the same as everyone else, but regard it as "worse" because their other grades are better?

Anecdotally from an extremely small sample size of people I am comfortable talking grades with, most the people I know who did very well were either median or slightly above/below median in LW.

[sublime]

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[hoos89]

I think it has a lot to do with how much hand holding there is in LW which makes it more about how good of a writer you are than how good you are at legal analysis, which is a perfectly legitimate thing to measure, it's just that people are often better at one than the other. My understanding is that it's P/F at most schools.

I can also add to Birdnals' sample size: I know of one person who did very well in both LW and doctrinal courses. Everyone else did markedly better in one or the other. Also I don't think most people who do well in doctrinal courses do objectively poorly in LW. They just don't do as well.

[jdmonkey]

Too bad it's totally fair to blame Mandelker for a bad grade. I'm glad you did well on his exam, but even other professors have acknowledged that it's an absurdity. Lots of people will have one bad grade in some class during 1L, but for so many people to have their one bad grade be in that one class with that one professor is, at best, suspect, especially given the structure of his exam. Maybe I just believe a little too much that things should be fair, but to put so much stake on whether someone gets randomly assigned to a particular professor seems kind of nuts to me.

Mandelker uses the same curve as every other property professor. I don't understand how more ppl. can have bad grades with him than someone else. I actually preferred his teaching style to some of the professors that have more gusto, as he didn't waste time making a show out of the class, and only focused on what was on the exam. Kim for civ pro was hands down my best professor not just in law school, but ever.

[hoos89]

Absolutely not what I was saying. A curve dictates the mean, not who gets what grade. I'm not saying that more people get bad grades, but that more people who otherwise do well get bad grades. Two different things.

[jdmonkey]

Absolutely not what I was saying. A curve dictates the mean, not who gets what grade. I'm not saying that more people get bad grades, but that more people who otherwise do well get bad grades. Two different things.

Oh, OK I get what you are saying. I mean one could even make the argument that Mandelker's exam is more helpful to a potential lawyer than a traditional law school exam, because of the word limit. Courts have word limits for briefs, courts have time limits for oral arguments, no law partner wants to read a novel length office memo, so being able to get points across succinctly is valuable skill.

[DoveBodyWash]

Absolutely not what I was saying. A curve dictates the mean, not who gets what grade. I'm not saying that more people get bad grades, but that more people who otherwise do well get bad grades. Two different things.

Oh, OK I get what you are saying. I mean one could even make the argument that Mandelker's exam is more helpful to a potential lawyer than a traditional law school exam, because of the word limit. Courts have word limits for briefs, courts have time limits for oral arguments, no law partner wants to read a novel length office memo, so being able to get points across succinctly is valuable skill.

[hoos89]

Absolutely not what I was saying. A curve dictates the mean, not who gets what grade. I'm not saying that more people get bad grades, but that more people who otherwise do well get bad grades. Two different things.

Oh, OK I get what you are saying. I mean one could even make the argument that Mandelker's exam is more helpful to a potential lawyer than a traditional law school exam, because of the word limit. Courts have word limits for briefs, courts have time limits for oral arguments, no law partner wants to read a novel length office memo, so being able to get points across succinctly is valuable skill.

What was your Torts word count again, Cuse?

[LET'S GET IT]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Vandeventer area for living for a married couple? I think it's basically just north of CWE but I'm out of state just looking at a map. It is decent? Thanks.

[Birdnals]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Vandeventer area for living for a married couple? I think it's basically just north of CWE but I'm out of state just looking at a map. It is decent? Thanks.

General St. Louis rule of thumb: if it is north of Delmar it is hit or miss so I wouldn't sign a lease there sight unseen.

[Ricky-Bobby]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Vandeventer area for living for a married couple? I think it's basically just north of CWE but I'm out of state just looking at a map. It is decent? Thanks.

I wouldn't.

[chuckbass]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Vandeventer area for living for a married couple? I think it's basically just north of CWE but I'm out of state just looking at a map. It is decent? Thanks.

General St. Louis rule of thumb: if it is north of Delmar it is hit or miss so I wouldn't sign a lease there sight unseen.

Yeah I heard to not go north of CWE.

[Ricky-Bobby]

http://www.areavibes.com/st.+louis-mo/v ... ter/crime/

The estimated Vandeventer crime index is 39% higher than the St. Louis average and and the St. Louis crime index is 162% higher than the Missouri average.
The estimated Vandeventer violent crime rate is 39% higher than the St. Louis average and and the St. Louis violent crime rate is 311% higher than the Missouri average.
The estimated Vandeventer property crime rate is 39% higher than the St. Louis average and and the St. Louis property crime rate is 141% higher than the Missouri average.

Did you know?
Vandeventer is safer than 20.3% of the neighborhoods in St. Louis.
The crime rate in Vandeventer, St. Louis is less than 1% of the cities in Missouri.
The estimated chance of being a victim of a crime in Vandeventer is 1 in 8.
The estimated chance of being a victim of a violent crime in Vandeventer is 1 in 39.
The estimated chance of being a victim of a property crime in Vandeventer is 1 in 9.

I knew it was sketchy, but that's some next-level sketch.

[LET'S GET IT]

Good to know. Thanks everyone.

[LET'S GET IT]

http://www.areavibes.com/st.+louis-mo/v ... ter/crime/

The estimated Vandeventer crime index is 39% higher than the St. Louis average and and the St. Louis crime index is 162% higher than the Missouri average.
The estimated Vandeventer violent crime rate is 39% higher than the St. Louis average and and the St. Louis violent crime rate is 311% higher than the Missouri average.
The estimated Vandeventer property crime rate is 39% higher than the St. Louis average and and the St. Louis property crime rate is 141% higher than the Missouri average.

Did you know?
Vandeventer is safer than 20.3% of the neighborhoods in St. Louis.
The crime rate in Vandeventer, St. Louis is less than 1% of the cities in Missouri.
The estimated chance of being a victim of a crime in Vandeventer is 1 in 8.
The estimated chance of being a victim of a violent crime in Vandeventer is 1 in 39.
The estimated chance of being a victim of a property crime in Vandeventer is 1 in 9.

I knew it was sketchy, but that's some next-level sketch.

Wow. I don't live in the best neighborhood in my current city, but that is just scary. I'm trying to justify paying twice as much to live in Clayton, but I'm cheap and it's proving difficult to talk myself into it. Thanks RB.

[Birdnals]

Wow. I don't live in the best neighborhood in my current city, but that is just scary. I'm trying to justify paying twice as much to live in Clayton, but I'm cheap and it's proving difficult to talk myself into it. Thanks RB.

Try looking in south city. Dogtown/the grove/ shaw/the hill

They are relatively cheap compared to clayton/CWE, pretty equal in distance to campus, and very couple friendly (lots of farmer's markets and such) while still being substantially young adult populations.

[hoos89]

Also, google maps street view can be pretty helpful in getting at least some idea of what a neighborhood is like. Drop it in the middle of Vandeventer and you won't want to live there. Lots of vacant lots and dilapidated properties.

[fl0w]

I know similar questions have been asked in this thread, but I'm still having a hard time understanding the whole situation: as someone who lives and is planning to work in California and who got into a couple mid-range law schools here, would attending WUSTL put me at a disadvantage? It's a considerably better school than any I got into here and they're offering me by far the most money, but I don't want to end up screwing myself work-wise. LST just says that not many students from WUSTL end up on the west coast, but I think it's different when you have ties there. Are there any graduates here who made it out of the Midwest successfully?

i did. PM me if you like.

[Ricky-Bobby]

I feel like I'm doing a disservice to the city and area if I don't mention the similarity to other cities. The crime rate looks bad in some neighborhoods, and there are definitely areas you don't want to wander around in looking lost at night, but using common sense goes a long way. This is true of any metropolitan area, and St. Louis is not really that bad.

I worked all over the city during all times of the day and night and I never had a problem. Don't act like a scared college kid and you will be ok almost everywhere. Just avoid late night strolls through O'Fallon Park or the Ville.

[sublime]

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[Fiero85]

I feel like I'm doing a disservice to the city and area if I don't mention the similarity to other cities. The crime rate looks bad in some neighborhoods, and there are definitely areas you don't want to wander around in looking lost at night, but using common sense goes a long way. This is true of any metropolitan area, and St. Louis is not really that bad.

I worked all over the city during all times of the day and night and I never had a problem. Don't act like a scared college kid and you will be ok almost everywhere. Just avoid late night strolls through O'Fallon Park or the Ville.

Do StL natives have to take a blood oath to say this whenever crime/dangerousness gets brought up?

I know you're joking, but seriously, STL can get the short stick in naitonal crime rating comparisons because we're dumb and only consider about 1/5 of the STL metropolitan area (and about 1/3 of the population) "the City of St. Louis". This makes the crime per capita stuff way off.

The official "City of St. Louis" is a laughably small area surrounding downtown - WUSTL campus isn't even considered in "St. Louis" and that's a 15 min drive from the Arch, which is as far downtown as you can go before the river. STL if considered as a whole instead of a wacky sample size is comparable to any other mid sized midwestern city (aka pretty darn safe) and a hell of a lot better than the Chi or Detroit.

(Rant over)

[Ricky-Bobby]

Do StL natives have to take a blood oath to say this whenever crime/dangerousness gets brought up?

Well when the closest city to you is known for 1) Blues music and 2) Frequent killings, you start to get a bit defensive about half of it.

ETA: well said, Fiero

[sublime]

..

[Fiero85]

I feel like I'm doing a disservice to the city and area if I don't mention the similarity to other cities. The crime rate looks bad in some neighborhoods, and there are definitely areas you don't want to wander around in looking lost at night, but using common sense goes a long way. This is true of any metropolitan area, and St. Louis is not really that bad.

I worked all over the city during all times of the day and night and I never had a problem. Don't act like a scared college kid and you will be ok almost everywhere. Just avoid late night strolls through O'Fallon Park or the Ville.

Do StL natives have to take a blood oath to say this whenever crime/dangerousness gets brought up?

I know you're joking, but seriously, STL can get the short stick in naitonal crime rating comparisons because we're dumb and only consider about 1/5 of the STL metropolitan area (and about 1/3 of the population) "the City of St. Louis". This makes the crime per capita stuff way off.

The official "City of St. Louis" is a laughably small area surrounding downtown - WUSTL campus isn't even considered in "St. Louis" and that's a 15 min drive from the Arch, which is as far downtown as you can go before the river. STL if considered as a whole instead of a wacky sample size is comparable to any other mid sized midwestern city (aka pretty darn safe) and a hell of a lot better than the Chi or Detroit.

(Rant over)

The downside of not having to pay for black children's education.

Yeah it's definitely not the only problem that arises from the STL City shrinkwrap style borders. I'm a County resident who is all in favor of integration of STL City and County, for the record.

[Ricky-Bobby]

The downside of not having to pay for black children's education.

Wow that's fucked up.

Also not true anymore. With the new decertification law you can just leave your old shitty school if it gets too shitty and transfer to a new, less shitty school in the burbs.