Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions Forum

[AllTheLawz]

Thanks for the info guys! Right now I'm interested in the Human Rights Journal or International Law Journal. Any knowledge about whether these are demanding ones?

You think you are really interested in a journal but trust me, you probably aren't. Join one with a good social scene if you decide to join one. Journal work (and a shocking number of published articles) is pretty garbage.

Also, not even a useful resume line for employers that regularly recruit at H. Everyone knows its just walk-on so they don't even note it. At most, you might here an "oh I was on that one/someone I knew was on that one."

[Mr. Elshal]

Thanks for the info guys! Right now I'm interested in the Human Rights Journal or International Law Journal. Any knowledge about whether these are demanding ones?

You think you are really interested in a journal but trust me, you probably aren't. Join one with a good social scene if you decide to join one. Journal work (and a shocking number of published articles) is pretty garbage.

Also, not even a useful resume line for employers that regularly recruit at H. Everyone knows its just walk-on so they don't even note it. At most, you might here an "oh I was on that one/someone I knew was on that one."

As someone pointed out earlier, it's a good talking point if you have little else. Also, I joined HBLR because I have a background in business and wanted to try a journal. I ended up really enjoying the articles and I've read every published article and some that haven't been published yet. I ended up working on something like 6 articles this year. I found it to be really fun and interesting and I met great people (although I'm not continuing next year because there are other opportunities I want to pursue).

[tomwatts]

One of the things that I like about the journal that I'm on (HLPR) is that the 1Ls don't just subcite. (A subcite is pretty dull, on the whole: you check footnotes for correct formatting and make sure that the sources cited actually support the propositions that the authors cite them for; you may also check for grammar.) We also have the 1Ls comment — in a separate, earlier edit — on the substance of the piece: does the argument make sense? Are there crucial points the author is skipping over or counterarguments the author is neglecting? That sort of thing. We're also moving toward putting out a lot of short-form student work, though that's still in developing stages. But that's especially interesting, to me.

My point is just that the secondary journals aren't all the same in terms of process, and it's worth checking out not only time commitment but also what the content of the work is.

[gottago]

edit

[wert3813]

I just heard from a YLS student that 50% of the screeners at Cravath get callbacks and then 2/3rds of callbacks get offers.

Does HLS have similar numbers?

So I'm tempted to not say because I think this is a pretty poor way to choose a school (not saying you are choosing a school off of this, but some people reading it will). Against my better judgement, about 65% of people that got screeners got CBs in 2012 (the 2013 data isn't out yet). 2/3rds of CBs got offers.

So yes, similar to better.

[ph14]

I just heard from a YLS student that 50% of the screeners at Cravath get callbacks and then 2/3rds of callbacks get offers.

Does HLS have similar numbers?

So I'm tempted to not say because I think this is a pretty poor way to choose a school (not saying you are choosing a school off of this, but some people reading it will). Against my better judgement, about 65% of people that got screeners got CBs in 2012 (the 2013 data isn't out yet). 2/3rds of CBs got offers.

So yes, similar to better.

Anyone curious about HLS's placement power should go check out firm bios of HLS graduates at top firms.

[lawschool2014hopeful]

This might be more of a stranger requests,

I am thinking of visiting HLS next week, but the school does not offer official tours for prospective students.

Any current student here willing to give me some sort informal tour? I will financially compensate for your time.

I am a perfectly normal human being, I swear.

[wert3813]

This might be more of a stranger requests,

I am thinking of visiting HLS next week, but the school does not offer official tours for prospective students.

Any current student here willing to give me some sort informal tour? I will financially compensate for your time.

I am a perfectly normal human being, I swear.

Are you an admit? That's odd to me?

[lawschool2014hopeful]

This might be more of a stranger requests,

I am thinking of visiting HLS next week, but the school does not offer official tours for prospective students.

Any current student here willing to give me some sort informal tour? I will financially compensate for your time.

I am a perfectly normal human being, I swear.

Are you an admit? That's odd to me?

I wish/hope.

Waitlisted.

[bbsg]

One of the things that I like about the journal that I'm on (HLPR) is that the 1Ls don't just subcite. (A subcite is pretty dull, on the whole: you check footnotes for correct formatting and make sure that the sources cited actually support the propositions that the authors cite them for; you may also check for grammar.) We also have the 1Ls comment — in a separate, earlier edit — on the substance of the piece: does the argument make sense? Are there crucial points the author is skipping over or counterarguments the author is neglecting? That sort of thing. We're also moving toward putting out a lot of short-form student work, though that's still in developing stages. But that's especially interesting, to me.

My point is just that the secondary journals aren't all the same in terms of process, and it's worth checking out not only time commitment but also what the content of the work is.

+1 -- did work on a couple of walk-on journals and the process at HLPR was far and away the best experience. I figure other journals may have the same process. ILJ doesn't.

[bbsg]

Also if anyone reading this needs a sublet for the summer, I've got a nice (and furnished) room near Central/Harvard for under 1k/month. Hit me up. Dates flexible, just can't go before June 1.

[babblefish]

Hey there! Would anyone happen to have an old Gerald Frug practice exam that he has put out publicly? Anything would be awesome!

[esther0123]

What does the career trajectory look like for HLS grads who are 6+ years out of law school? Here is what I understand (please correct me if I'm mistaken):

1. Legal market sucks right now. lower ranked schools are suffering quite a bit, and their graduates cannot ensure a job out of LS.
2. HLS grads, if they so choose, can get Big Law fairly easily, though with varying degree of firm prestige. But in general, they get a job.
3. Big Law has a huge turn over an has a preference for younger associates. The legal market structure is set up so that older (5+ years) mid level associates are laid off to make room for fresh graduates. Repeat cycle.
4. What I've gathered from searching through forums and online is that even HLS does not protect you past a certain point in your legal career (~5 years?). And then, the majority of HLS grads disappear. They leave law, or stay in it while being underemployed (if not unemployed).
5. Essentially, even with HLS, you are likely to end up with "half a career"

Is this a fair assessment? I ask this because this just seems very gloomy, so I'm wondering if I've been receiving a biased view. Also, I find that current students and recent grads are very optimistic compared to alums. So I'd like to get some balanced opinion....

Thank you in advance for your help!

- Confused Admit.

[AllTheLawz]

What does the career trajectory look like for HLS grads who are 6+ years out of law school? Here is what I understand (please correct me if I'm mistaken):

1. Legal market sucks right now. lower ranked schools are suffering quite a bit, and their graduates cannot ensure a job out of LS.
2. HLS grads, if they so choose, can get Big Law fairly easily, though with varying degree of firm prestige. But in general, they get a job.
3. Big Law has a huge turn over an has a preference for younger associates. The legal market structure is set up so that older (5+ years) mid level associates are laid off to make room for fresh graduates. Repeat cycle.
4. What I've gathered from searching through forums and online is that even HLS does not protect you past a certain point in your legal career (~5 years?). And then, the majority of HLS grads disappear. They leave law, or stay in it while being underemployed (if not unemployed).
5. Essentially, even with HLS, you are likely to end up with "half a career"

Is this a fair assessment? I ask this because this just seems very gloomy, so I'm wondering if I've been receiving a biased view. Also, I find that current students and recent grads are very optimistic compared to alums. So I'd like to get some balanced opinion....

Thank you in advance for your help!

- Confused Admit.

Honestly, I'm not yet at the point where I have a huge sample size but what from I have seen 3-5 are vastly overstated on forums like TLS. I have fairly regular contact with a couple dozen youngish (younger than 35) biglaw attorneys and I have seen almost no involuntary terminations or extended unemployment. Everyone that has made a move away from biglaw has been able to find a spot in-house at a company (of varying sizes), government, or a university. The few people that have completely left the law have done so voluntarily.

[wert3813]

Uh wow. I certainly hope that's not an accurate picture. And I don't think it is. I annotated your argument because it was just easier to respond that way.

What does the career trajectory look like for HLS grads who are 6+ years out of law school? Here is what I understand (please correct me if I'm mistaken):

1. Legal market sucks right now. Getting better but yes lower ranked schools are suffering quite a bit, and their graduates cannot ensure a job out of LS.
2. HLS grads, if they so choose, can get Big Law fairly easily, though with varying degree of firm prestige. But in general, they get a job. Yeah pretty much
3. Big Law has a huge turn over an has a preference for younger associates. The legal market structure is set up so that older (5+ years) mid level associates are laid off to make room for fresh graduates. Repeat cycle. Not really. Well maybe but I'll be more specific. Most law firms would love to have associates stay 5,6,7 years. That's when you are most profitable. Most associates wash themselves out before that not the other way around
4. What I've gathered from searching through forums and online is that even HLS does not protect you past a certain point in your legal career (~5 years?). Really? If so this is shocking to me and highly concerning. Where are you hearing this? I mean you aren't going to make partner because your diploma says HLS but if the only advantage an HLS degree gives me is my 1st placement that's problematic And then, the majority of HLS grads disappear. This is a little dramatic. I mean they disappear in the sense that you can't find a bio for them on a V100 website site but presumably they don't end up "disappeared." Regardless, to assume that they all, most, or even many have unfavorable outcomes just cause you don't know the outcome is unwise They leave law, or stay in it while being underemployed (if not unemployed).
5. Essentially, even with HLS, you are likely to end up with "half a career" Likely? C'mon now.

Is this a fair assessment? I ask this because this just seems very gloomy, so I'm wondering if I've been receiving a biased view. Also, I find that current students and recent grads are very optimistic compared to alums. So I'd like to get some balanced opinion....

Thank you in advance for your help!

- Confused Admit.

Have you talked to HLS alums 5+ years out who aren't doing well and regret their decision? If so I'd love to hear more about why, what they are doing now etc. Look, I'm not a sunshine pumper about this place. I'm sure you can find people who have had bad outcomes. Particularly people who graduated between say 2006 and 2009. But to say a degree from one of the top 10 graduate school in the world gives you a half career strikes me as inaccurate. Also, and I don't have the data in front of me, but Harvard tracks this stuff. Something like 85% of HLS grads of the class of 2003 when surveyed 10 years out didn't regret their decision. TLS is an important place with important information for 0Ls. But it can still be overly gloom-n-doom about long term outcomes, particularly from HYS.

[esther0123]

Uh wow. I certainly hope that's not an accurate picture. And I don't think it is. I annotated your argument because it was just easier to respond that way.

What does the career trajectory look like for HLS grads who are 6+ years out of law school? Here is what I understand (please correct me if I'm mistaken):

1. Legal market sucks right now. Getting better but yes lower ranked schools are suffering quite a bit, and their graduates cannot ensure a job out of LS.
2. HLS grads, if they so choose, can get Big Law fairly easily, though with varying degree of firm prestige. But in general, they get a job. Yeah pretty much
3. Big Law has a huge turn over an has a preference for younger associates. The legal market structure is set up so that older (5+ years) mid level associates are laid off to make room for fresh graduates. Repeat cycle. Not really. Well maybe but I'll be more specific. Most law firms would love to have associates stay 5,6,7 years. That's when you are most profitable. Most associates wash themselves out before that not the other way around
4. What I've gathered from searching through forums and online is that even HLS does not protect you past a certain point in your legal career (~5 years?). Really? If so this is shocking to me and highly concerning. Where are you hearing this? I mean you aren't going to make partner because your diploma says HLS but if the only advantage an HLS degree gives me is my 1st placement that's problematic And then, the majority of HLS grads disappear. This is a little dramatic. I mean they disappear in the sense that you can't find a bio for them on a V100 website site but presumably they don't end up "disappeared." Regardless, to assume that they all, most, or even many have unfavorable outcomes just cause you don't know the outcome is unwise They leave law, or stay in it while being underemployed (if not unemployed).
5. Essentially, even with HLS, you are likely to end up with "half a career" Likely? C'mon now.

Is this a fair assessment? I ask this because this just seems very gloomy, so I'm wondering if I've been receiving a biased view. Also, I find that current students and recent grads are very optimistic compared to alums. So I'd like to get some balanced opinion....

Thank you in advance for your help!

- Confused Admit.

Have you talked to HLS alums 5+ years out who aren't doing well and regret their decision? If so I'd love to hear more about why, what they are doing now etc. Look, I'm not a sunshine pumper about this place. I'm sure you can find people who have had bad outcomes. Particularly people who graduated between say 2006 and 2009. But to say a degree from one of the top 10 graduate school in the world gives you a half career strikes me as inaccurate. Also, and I don't have the data in front of me, but Harvard tracks this stuff. Something like 85% of HLS grads of the class of 2003 when surveyed 10 years out didn't regret their decision. TLS is an important place with important information for 0Ls. But it can still be overly gloom-n-doom about long term outcomes, particularly from HYS.

Hello!

I don't have a large sample size and that's the problem!! I wish I had at least 10 different alumni (with at least 5 years of legal experience) that I could speak to, but HLS wasn't very helpful in identifying them for me either :S

That's why i ask on this forum hoping that someone else could provide me with a better insight. Someone who's "been there done that."

I have spoken to 1 alum who graduated during 2006-2009, who've told me about what the situation was like for him and his friends. It hasn't really improved for him or his friends since either getting no-offered after 2L summer/getting their offer rescinded/being laid off/leaving Big Law -- yes they are all HLS grads. They all have a job, but underemployed.

I have also spoken to another professional (not a lawyer) whose sons and 4 other family members are graduates of HLS. He also confirmed that HLS is good for getting your career's kickstart but its effect fades away after your first gig (or first two gigs).

And then, I see someting like this: http://www.jdunderground.com/all/thread ... post744821



ETA: But I was able to talk to various current students. All of them are very optimistic about their career outlook and the value of Harvard degree. I find the contrast between the view of current students vs. view of alumni interesting. I also reckon that my sample size is small and therefore, I take everything with a grain of salt. This doesn't help the fact that I'm confused.

[patogordo]

i think you've got it mostly right. your school matters most for your first/second job, and the effect is marginal after that. very few associates stay at large law firms for more than 3-5 years -- some by choice, some not. some go to other firms, some go in-house, many leave the practice of law entirely. that's gonna be true whether you went to HLS or not.

[wert3813]

Uh wow. I certainly hope that's not an accurate picture. And I don't think it is. I annotated your argument because it was just easier to respond that way.

What does the career trajectory look like for HLS grads who are 6+ years out of law school? Here is what I understand (please correct me if I'm mistaken):

1. Legal market sucks right now. Getting better but yes lower ranked schools are suffering quite a bit, and their graduates cannot ensure a job out of LS.
2. HLS grads, if they so choose, can get Big Law fairly easily, though with varying degree of firm prestige. But in general, they get a job. Yeah pretty much
3. Big Law has a huge turn over an has a preference for younger associates. The legal market structure is set up so that older (5+ years) mid level associates are laid off to make room for fresh graduates. Repeat cycle. Not really. Well maybe but I'll be more specific. Most law firms would love to have associates stay 5,6,7 years. That's when you are most profitable. Most associates wash themselves out before that not the other way around
4. What I've gathered from searching through forums and online is that even HLS does not protect you past a certain point in your legal career (~5 years?). Really? If so this is shocking to me and highly concerning. Where are you hearing this? I mean you aren't going to make partner because your diploma says HLS but if the only advantage an HLS degree gives me is my 1st placement that's problematic And then, the majority of HLS grads disappear. This is a little dramatic. I mean they disappear in the sense that you can't find a bio for them on a V100 website site but presumably they don't end up "disappeared." Regardless, to assume that they all, most, or even many have unfavorable outcomes just cause you don't know the outcome is unwise They leave law, or stay in it while being underemployed (if not unemployed).
5. Essentially, even with HLS, you are likely to end up with "half a career" Likely? C'mon now.

Is this a fair assessment? I ask this because this just seems very gloomy, so I'm wondering if I've been receiving a biased view. Also, I find that current students and recent grads are very optimistic compared to alums. So I'd like to get some balanced opinion....

Thank you in advance for your help!

- Confused Admit.

Have you talked to HLS alums 5+ years out who aren't doing well and regret their decision? If so I'd love to hear more about why, what they are doing now etc. Look, I'm not a sunshine pumper about this place. I'm sure you can find people who have had bad outcomes. Particularly people who graduated between say 2006 and 2009. But to say a degree from one of the top 10 graduate school in the world gives you a half career strikes me as inaccurate. Also, and I don't have the data in front of me, but Harvard tracks this stuff. Something like 85% of HLS grads of the class of 2003 when surveyed 10 years out didn't regret their decision. TLS is an important place with important information for 0Ls. But it can still be overly gloom-n-doom about long term outcomes, particularly from HYS.

Hello!

I don't have a large sample size and that's the problem!! I wish I had at least 10 different alumni (with at least 5 years of legal experience) that I could speak to, but HLS wasn't very helpful in identifying them for me either :S

That's why i ask on this forum hoping that someone else could provide me with a better insight. Someone who's "been there done that."

I have spoken to 1 alum who graduated during 2006-2009, who've told me about what the situation was like for him and his friends. It hasn't really improved for him or his friends since either getting no-offered after 2L summer/getting their offer rescinded/being laid off/leaving Big Law -- yes they are all HLS grads. They all have a job, but underemployed.

I have also spoken to another professional (not a lawyer) whose sons and 4 other family members are graduates of HLS. He also confirmed that HLS is good for getting your career's kickstart but its effect fades away after your first gig (or first two gigs).

And then, I see someting like this: http://www.jdunderground.com/all/thread ... post744821



ETA: But I was able to talk to various current students. All of them are very optimistic about their career outlook and the value of Harvard degree. I find the contrast between the view of current students vs. view of alumni interesting. I also reckon that my sample size is small and therefore, I take everything with a grain of salt. This doesn't help the fact that I'm confused.

2006-2009 really screwed up some folks. In that post Dewey was referred to. I have no trouble believing people who started at Dewey, or got Lathamed, or got stealthed aren't doing great. That's a risk you take anywhere. Keep in mind there appear to be more HYS people arguing against the jdunderground post than arguing for it.

It's exams so I'm not gonna be able to find the data but Harvard does track 10 years out and it's pretty positive. Turns out negative people are more likely to complain on the internets.

[AllTheLawz]

i think you've got it mostly right. your school matters most for your first/second job, and the effect is marginal after that. very few associates stay at large law firms for more than 3-5 years -- some by choice, some not. some go to other firms, some go in-house, many leave the practice of law entirely. that's gonna be true whether you went to HLS or not.

People say this but it really isn't true. I know this for a fact because I've been in the position of working to hire a replacement for myself (not a legal job but a similar professional services type position) and we definitely noticed schools way far out. Of course, you aren't getting an interview if everything after your school is mediocre but good school gets you the benefit of the doubt where you otherwise might be an uncertain candidate.

Plus, when you are talking about brand names everything on your resume builds on itself. So HLS puts you in position to get McKinsey/Cravath/Ropes/Kirkland/etc. These firms are clear tops in their region/field and help you significantly for that next position. Obviously, the farther you get into career the more of a performance record you have for future employers to consider but given a similar level of performance most employers take the name brand guy.

[tomwatts]

Hey there! Would anyone happen to have an old Gerald Frug local gov practice exam that he has put out publicly? My prof at Northwestern is teaching it under a similar model to Frug's but for the first time, so we don't have much to go on. Anything would be awesome!

Are these exams behind some kind of login wall? When I'm on Harvard's wifi (which is 99% of the time), half the of login walls vanish, so I can't tell. If so, PM me.

[KaNa1986]

i think you've got it mostly right. your school matters most for your first/second job, and the effect is marginal after that. very few associates stay at large law firms for more than 3-5 years -- some by choice, some not. some go to other firms, some go in-house, many leave the practice of law entirely. that's gonna be true whether you went to HLS or not.

People say this but it really isn't true. I know this for a fact because I've been in the position of working to hire a replacement for myself (not a legal job but a similar professional services type position) and we definitely noticed schools way far out. Of course, you aren't getting an interview if everything after your school is mediocre but good school gets you the benefit of the doubt where you otherwise might be an uncertain candidate.

Plus, when you are talking about brand names everything on your resume builds on itself. So HLS puts you in position to get McKinsey/Cravath/Ropes/Kirkland/etc. These firms are clear tops in their region/field and help you significantly for that next position. Obviously, the farther you get into career the more of a performance record you have for future employers to consider but given a similar level of performance most employers take the name brand guy.

If you want McKinsey, you should not have come to HLS. You should have tried to get a job there right out of undergrad.

[patogordo]

i think you've got it mostly right. your school matters most for your first/second job, and the effect is marginal after that. very few associates stay at large law firms for more than 3-5 years -- some by choice, some not. some go to other firms, some go in-house, many leave the practice of law entirely. that's gonna be true whether you went to HLS or not.

People say this but it really isn't true. I know this for a fact because I've been in the position of working to hire a replacement for myself (not a legal job but a similar professional services type position) and we definitely noticed schools way far out. Of course, you aren't getting an interview if everything after your school is mediocre but good school gets you the benefit of the doubt where you otherwise might be an uncertain candidate.

Plus, when you are talking about brand names everything on your resume builds on itself. So HLS puts you in position to get McKinsey/Cravath/Ropes/Kirkland/etc. These firms are clear tops in their region/field and help you significantly for that next position. Obviously, the farther you get into career the more of a performance record you have for future employers to consider but given a similar level of performance most employers take the name brand guy.

sure, there's some path-dependence, but plenty of schools put you in a position to get mckinsey/cravath/ropes/kirkland/whatever. hls might give you a better chance but hls often comes with a bigger price tag.

and i didn't say no one cares about your school once you graduate. i said the effect is marginal, which is basically what you said -- it gets you the benefit of the doubt / it's a tiebreaker.

[MyNameIsFlynn!]

i think you've got it mostly right. your school matters most for your first/second job, and the effect is marginal after that. very few associates stay at large law firms for more than 3-5 years -- some by choice, some not. some go to other firms, some go in-house, many leave the practice of law entirely. that's gonna be true whether you went to HLS or not.

People say this but it really isn't true. I know this for a fact because I've been in the position of working to hire a replacement for myself (not a legal job but a similar professional services type position) and we definitely noticed schools way far out. Of course, you aren't getting an interview if everything after your school is mediocre but good school gets you the benefit of the doubt where you otherwise might be an uncertain candidate.

Plus, when you are talking about brand names everything on your resume builds on itself. So HLS puts you in position to get McKinsey/Cravath/Ropes/Kirkland/etc. These firms are clear tops in their region/field and help you significantly for that next position. Obviously, the farther you get into career the more of a performance record you have for future employers to consider but given a similar level of performance most employers take the name brand guy.

If you want McKinsey, you should not have come to HLS. You should have tried to get a job there right out of undergrad.

Only tangentially related to AlltheLawz's point that your resume builds on itself, so HLS is an advantage, but to your point about McKinsey: There are many schools from which they will not take people. If you're coming from a MediocreStateU/DirectionalStateCollege undergrad, HLS can open doors that would otherwise be closed. Agreed that going to HLS with the intention of then going to McKinsey doesn't make as much sense if you're coming from a good undergrad, though.

[TripTrip]

and i didn't say no one cares about your school once you graduate. i said the effect is marginal, which is basically what you said -- it gets you the benefit of the doubt / it's a tiebreaker.

That also depends on what you do afterward. If you decide not to go the firm route, HLS will definitely help you stand out.

[baloneydanza]

I know Gropius questions have been done to death but I couldn't find any that exactly asked what I'm looking for. I keep track of my diet, so I try to eat out as little as possible. How feasible would it be for me to cook my own dinners every other night (I usually make enough for the next 2/3 nights)? Is there enough fridge space for someone to store food for all 3 meals for a week or two? Shopping every few days would obviously not be economical. I will have a mini fridge. What would be the best building and floor for a kitchen that isn't very busy?