The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc Forum

[chrisbru]

As a homegrown Minnesotan, tag/bump for this cycle... would love to see this thread revived.

This thread, much like the Minnesota legal market, cannot be revived.

I've heard this from many people, but can you explain a little about why the MN market is so bad? Just over saturated with students? Not enough firms? No hiring?

I was mostly kidding. I went to Iowa, and two of my buddies are MN biglaw - one after he finishes his clerkship this year, the other one started in September. I know of at least a few more. My friends that went to St. Thomas seem to be doing... fine. Not great, but fine.

Minnesota isn't a terrible market, but it is really competitive and saturated. Four local schools plus Wisconsin, Nebraksa, Iowa, and I'm sure others trying to send students there too.

[Jchance]

What about rumors of Hamline closing? Is this true/on the horizon? Could it improve the market?

Instead of closing, I heard potential merger between Hamline + either UST or WM. Could be on the horizon.

I don't think market got worse, but rather stagnant. The Linquist + Oppenheimer merger is interesting tho, it's like all the mid-size firms in Minn are merging one after another.

To add schools that target Minn market: Harvard, UMich, Northwestern and some BU/BC

[secadc11]

What about rumors of Hamline closing? Is this true/on the horizon? Could it improve the market?

Instead of closing, I heard potential merger between Hamline + either UST or WM. Could be on the horizon.

I don't think market got worse, but rather stagnant. The Linquist + Oppenheimer merger is interesting tho, it's like all the mid-size firms in Minn are merging one after another.

To add schools that target Minn market: Harvard, UMich, Northwestern and some BU/BC

BU/BC? Really? Why? The rest make sense to me but that seems odd. I went to undergrad in Massachusetts actually and am sure I could pull BU/BC but I figured it'd be super difficult to get back to MN from there.

[valen]

Curious also on why BU would target Minnesota

[Jchance]

Beats me. I read up Minn Big/Midlaw hiring of new associates yearly, and there are always a few associates from BU (more BU than BC forsure). Some came after clerking though, mostly for Minn. state courts.

[minnbills]

Lots of locals go to undergrad/law school at BU/Boston, then come home to work.

And yes, it is still exceptionally competitive in this market. The main problem is the big firms here only hire a few people every year, so it just bleeds into everything else.

[valen]

Thanks all for the input. Any thoughts on how it is to actually work for any of the Minnesota Biglaw firms? I'm particularly interested in fredrickson

[Jchance]

Thanks all for the input. Any thoughts on how it is to actually work for any of the Minnesota Biglaw firms? I'm particularly interested in fredrickson

Besides good grades + interview prep, I heard that Fredrikson actually read your writing sample so make sure it's good. I also heard they request a few writing samples, not just one.

[secadc11]

So I know this was discussed earlier in the thread, but given that was years ago, how would people assess this hypo. situation for the 2014-15 cycle?

Sticker at UMN
Full ride at St. Thomas
Full ride at William Mitchell

[Jchance]

So I know this was discussed earlier in the thread, but given that was years ago, how would people assess this hypo. situation for the 2014-15 cycle?

Sticker at UMN
Full ride at St. Thomas
Full ride at William Mitchell

Short answer is retake/don't go to law school

Economically, sticker at UMN: 3 year of lost income nets you about 25% chance of $110k salary to pay off $200k debt.
Full ride at St. Thomas/WM: 3 year of lost income nets you about 5% chance of $110k salary to pay off $60-70k debt.

If you want to do public interest, take St. Thomas/WM.

What are your other options?

[valen]

So I know this was discussed earlier in the thread, but given that was years ago, how would people assess this hypo. situation for the 2014-15 cycle?

Sticker at UMN
Full ride at St. Thomas
Full ride at William Mitchell

I will agree that a retake or reevaluation of what you want to do is probably your best bet. Are you applying this cycle? Anywhere out of state?

[secadc11]

So I know this was discussed earlier in the thread, but given that was years ago, how would people assess this hypo. situation for the 2014-15 cycle?

Sticker at UMN
Full ride at St. Thomas
Full ride at William Mitchell

I will agree that a retake or reevaluation of what you want to do is probably your best bet. Are you applying this cycle? Anywhere out of state?

Sorry all if I wasn't clear; this is COMPLETELY a hypothetical. I haven't applied yet, but according to mylsn, seems pretty likely I will get some $$ at the U. Just asking for discussion's sake.

[valen]

So I know this was discussed earlier in the thread, but given that was years ago, how would people assess this hypo. situation for the 2014-15 cycle?

Sticker at UMN
Full ride at St. Thomas
Full ride at William Mitchell

I will agree that a retake or reevaluation of what you want to do is probably your best bet. Are you applying this cycle? Anywhere out of state?

Sorry all if I wasn't clear; this is COMPLETELY a hypothetical. I haven't applied yet, but according to mylsn, seems pretty likely I will get some $$ at the U. Just asking for discussion's sake.

$$ at the U is almost certainly better than ST or WM unless you want to work in the public sector. But even the U can be a scary option since the degree doesn't hold much weight outside of the Midwest if you happen to strike out in MN. Also try to get your apps in ASAP for the best chance at money.

Good luck!

[Jumpman42]

How about free tuition at University of Iowa for Minnesota? (Not hypothetical)

[Frothingslosh]

Thanks all for the input. Any thoughts on how it is to actually work for any of the Minnesota Biglaw firms? I'm particularly interested in fredrickson

Besides good grades + interview prep, I heard that Fredrikson actually read your writing sample so make sure it's good. I also heard they request a few writing samples, not just one.

I'll echo this and add that, fwiw, they all seemed incredibly stale when i went to visit the firm. Multiple times during the interview, they rolled out the "start building a book of business as soon as possible" spiel. Was easily the most off-putting of any of the other so-called "business law firms" I interviewed/had call backs with. This goes for both Minneapolis as well as pretty much every where else. That attitude might work for some people, but for me it was kind of a turn off.

[Jchance]

Why does Faegre hire so few people from the U compared to local firms, including Dorsey? What do they look for?

[minnbills]

MN biglaw firms are actually more competitive than most big firms in NY, DC, etc. I know a bunch of people from UMN (all minnesotans) who got offers from big firms in other markets but couldn't get anything here.

Its so competitive because there are so few spots. There are probably 50-75 SA spots in MN in a given year, and about half those are diversity or IP.

[minnbills]

I'll echo this and add that, fwiw, they all seemed incredibly stale when i went to visit the firm. Multiple times during the interview, they rolled out the "start building a book of business as soon as possible" spiel. Was easily the most off-putting of any of the other so-called "business law firms" I interviewed/had call backs with. This goes for both Minneapolis as well as pretty much every where else. That attitude might work for some people, but for me it was kind of a turn off.

That's how it is in the private sector. You need to get used to it. The bottom line is you are only valuable if you can bring in business.

[minnbills]

How about free tuition at University of Iowa for Minnesota? (Not hypothetical)

Assuming you don't have a good offer from UMN, go to Iowa. Unlikely you will get a job with a big firm right away but Iowa travels to MN for sure. Just make sure to spend both summers in Minnesota.

[MarkfromWI]

What about rumors of Hamline closing? Is this true/on the horizon? Could it improve the market?

Instead of closing, I heard potential merger between Hamline + either UST or WM. Could be on the horizon.

I would be extremely, extremely shocked if UST and Hamline merged law schools, for several reasons. Primarily, UST has a large enough endowment that they probably wouldn't be as put off by having to subsidize the law school for a few years. Additionally, from the atmosphere at UST they are seriously into the religious/public service aspect and I can't see them sacrificing any of that just to make nice with Hamline. I mean sure, HU's a "religiously affiliated school," but aside from the guy who donated all the land for the campus back in the 1800's being a bishop you'd never know it. Lastly, HU going under would benefit UST, both in terms of larger classes (i.e. more revenue) and less competition leaving better jobs placement numbers. For UST, merging with HU does them literally no good and only hurts them in any relevant way I can see. I have no idea about a merger with WM (that one seems at least a bit more plausible; they're at least both in the same city and since WM is independent maybe they'd be OK joining forces w/ Hamline) but I jus't don't think a UST/HU merger would ever happen.

[Jumpman42]

How about free tuition at University of Iowa for Minnesota? (Not hypothetical)

Assuming you don't have a good offer from UMN, go to Iowa. Unlikely you will get a job with a big firm right away but Iowa travels to MN for sure. Just make sure to spend both summers in Minnesota.

Thanks for the advice. I wouldn't be entirely opposed to ending up in Iowa or South Dakota (where I am originally from) but Minneapolis is definitely my top choice. I was waitlisted at Minnesota

[minnbills]

Thanks for the advice. I wouldn't be entirely opposed to ending up in Iowa or South Dakota (where I am originally from) but Minneapolis is definitely my top choice. I was waitlisted at Minnesota

Sorry to hear that - you should consider waiting a year and reapplying. (The LSAT numbers keep dropping nationwide). If I could do it over again I would have taken another year to get some legal WE before going to law school anyway.

[chrisbru]

How about free tuition at University of Iowa for Minnesota? (Not hypothetical)

Assuming you don't have a good offer from UMN, go to Iowa. Unlikely you will get a job with a big firm right away but Iowa travels to MN for sure. Just make sure to spend both summers in Minnesota.

This is huge. Even if you have to clerk for free for a judge in rural Minnesota.

[Jumpman42]

How about free tuition at University of Iowa for Minnesota? (Not hypothetical)

Assuming you don't have a good offer from UMN, go to Iowa. Unlikely you will get a job with a big firm right away but Iowa travels to MN for sure. Just make sure to spend both summers in Minnesota.

This is huge. Even if you have to clerk for free for a judge in rural Minnesota.

Thanks. Currently in undergrad in semi-rural Minnesota. Not as bad as you might think. Would you choose Iowa for free over UMN at or near sticker?

[chrisbru]

Thanks. Currently in undergrad in semi-rural Minnesota. Not as bad as you might think. Would you choose Iowa for free over UMN at or near sticker?

If I was going to go to law school again, I'd first punch myself in the face and remind myself it is a stupid decision and to work for a few more years and go to MBA school or something instead.

If I still decided to go to law school, I would 100% choose a no-stipulation full-ride scholarship to a near-peer school.