Columbia students taking questions Forum

[jbagelboy]

I mean, I agree that cheaper makes more sense, but what would have happened if you went to a lower ranked school, Mono?

I for one turned down large scholarships at lower T10s, squeaked through OCI (so arguably would have not landed biglaw at a lower ranked school), and I can tell you that none of it was worth it.

3 years of business experience/earnings foregone, all to work in a career that everyone wants help leaving (including myself), and I will probably end up just barely paying everything back or more likely paying taxes on the amount forgiven at the end of the day.

Legit insane decision-making. Follow a different path and I would have built up savings, I would have no debt (other than perhaps a mortgage) and could probably even afford to start a family today.

I was in the same position. Turned down full scholly at lower T-14s for half at CLS. At the end of the day, I too squeaked by EIP. Might have potentially struck out if I went to, say Cornell or Northwestern. I dunno, a friend of mine at a lower T-14 struck out. He worked at a midsize firm now and likes his job, he doesn't make biglaw money but he doesn't work biglaw hours either. Without any debt, maybe that might have been a better turnout.
I think that and the sense of shame/failure that comes with squeaking by EIP and shit grades I got, have perhaps soured me on law school more than others who did far better. So I always caveat my frustration with law school/CLS with that info.

this grades and EIP stuff that gets you down might still seem like a big deal/something that matters at all as a 2L, but that will change pretty soon.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

I was in the same position. Turned down full scholly at lower T-14s for half at CLS. At the end of the day, I too squeaked by EIP. Might have potentially struck out if I went to, say Cornell or Northwestern. I dunno, a friend of mine at a lower T-14 struck out. He worked at a midsize firm now and likes his job, he doesn't make biglaw money but he doesn't work biglaw hours either. Without any debt, maybe that might have been a better turnout.
I think that and the sense of shame/failure that comes with squeaking by EIP and shit grades I got, have perhaps soured me on law school more than others who did far better. So I always caveat my frustration with law school/CLS with that info.

I switched to a large regional firm... it's a terrific lifestyle. Debt and disinterest in the law firm business model are my only remaining issues, that's why I caveat my frustration with law school and being a corporate lawyer with law school is good if you don't have other options out of undergrad.

And for what it's worth, 98% of my peers in law and non-law alike thought that I was crazy for switching, but biglaw partners (including those I work for and those I negotiate against to this day) and other older acquaintances think that I am a genius for moving.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

this grades and EIP stuff that gets you down might still seem like a big deal/something that matters at all as a 2L, but that will change pretty soon.

Who's the 2L? As crazy as it is, getting your foot in the door matters years down the road. Obviously you know a V100 associate or even non-maket paying AM Law 200 can easily trade up to a V10, but if you come out with nothing the road ahead is tough.

And I still get benefits from getting my foot in the door: opposing counsel and in-house attorneys can generally vet who I am because of where I used to work, I still get recruiters drooling over me because of where I used to work and I can probably still get a better in house position because of where I used to work.

It's easy to move back and forth once you're in, but much harder to be one of those bootstrap guys that was in the right practice at the right small firm or regulatory agency.

And to be clear, I think no law school is worth attending regardless of cost of attendance, but I know for a fact that grades and interviews matter years later to those that never got their foot in the door.

I still say that all prospective students should dare to just say NO to law school.

[TheoO]

this grades and EIP stuff that gets you down might still seem like a big deal/something that matters at all as a 2L, but that will change pretty soon.

Who's the 2L?

Referring to me (and within the context that I have an SA), but your general point stands.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

this grades and EIP stuff that gets you down might still seem like a big deal/something that matters at all as a 2L, but that will change pretty soon.

Who's the 2L?

I am.

Ah, my mistake.

Since I'm typing (and wildly bored on a slow day) I'd add the main reason law makes no sense now is that when my parents were students, CSM paid approx. $15K and when you didn't make partner, you could go make partner at Skadden. Loans could be paid back within a couple years. The bubble caused by the ease of access to student loans is nuts.

[jbagelboy]

this grades and EIP stuff that gets you down might still seem like a big deal/something that matters at all as a 2L, but that will change pretty soon.

Who's the 2L? As crazy as it is, getting your foot in the door matters years down the road. Obviously you know a V100 associate or even non-maket paying AM Law 200 can easily trade up to a V10, but if you come out with nothing the road ahead is tough.

And I still get benefits from getting my foot in the door: opposing counsel and in-house attorneys can generally vet who I am because of where I used to work, I still get recruiters drooling over me because of where I used to work and I can probably still get a better in house position because of where I used to work.

It's easy to move back and forth once you're in, but much harder to be one of those bootstrap guys that was in the right practice at the right small firm or regulatory agency.

And to be clear, I think no law school is worth attending regardless of cost of attendance, but I know for a fact that grades and interviews matter years later to those that never got their foot in the door.

I still say that all prospective students should dare to just say NO to law school.

I didn't mean people who strike out--that's obviously very different. I'm talking about people who "struggle" CLS-style and only get a handful of offers at V100 firms. Sometimes for a few months after EIP some people have a complex cause their friends or classmates who weren't really any smarter or harder working than they are are summering at simpson or cravath or whatever. I'm saying that I know people who felt this way and I know students become angry and develop inferiority issues over it but its temporary, and after a while, it completely stops mattering and all the firms blend together.

i'm not directing this towards anyone or anything in particular, just pointing out that a lot of this shit changes

[TheoO]

this grades and EIP stuff that gets you down might still seem like a big deal/something that matters at all as a 2L, but that will change pretty soon.

Who's the 2L? As crazy as it is, getting your foot in the door matters years down the road. Obviously you know a V100 associate or even non-maket paying AM Law 200 can easily trade up to a V10, but if you come out with nothing the road ahead is tough.

And I still get benefits from getting my foot in the door: opposing counsel and in-house attorneys can generally vet who I am because of where I used to work, I still get recruiters drooling over me because of where I used to work and I can probably still get a better in house position because of where I used to work.

It's easy to move back and forth once you're in, but much harder to be one of those bootstrap guys that was in the right practice at the right small firm or regulatory agency.

And to be clear, I think no law school is worth attending regardless of cost of attendance, but I know for a fact that grades and interviews matter years later to those that never got their foot in the door.

I still say that all prospective students should dare to just say NO to law school.

I didn't mean people who strike out--that's obviously very different. I'm talking about people who "struggle" CLS-style and only get a handful of offers at V100 firms. Sometimes for a few months after EIP some people have a complex cause their friends or classmates who weren't really any smarter or harder working than they are are summering at simpson or cravath or whatever. I'm saying that I know people who felt this way and I know students become angry and develop inferiority issues over it but its temporary, and after a while, it completely stops mattering and all the firms blend together.

This is entirely correct. It stings and hurts the pride, but you're right.

On a positive note wrt to CLS: I think the main benefit of CLS, to be honest, and probably something that goes unappreciated, is the amazing alumni connection you'll have. Most of my peers here don't really think much post-firm, but I've thought about this constantly, and it's nice to know that I've developed such a large connection. I imagine this is the case at most T-14s, but I feel like it's helpful if a bigger portion of the class is heading to the top.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

I didn't mean people who strike out--that's obviously very different. I'm talking about people who "struggle" CLS-style and only get a handful of offers at V100 firms. Sometimes for a few months after EIP some people have a complex cause their friends or classmates who weren't really any smarter or harder working than they are are summering at simpson or cravath or whatever. I'm saying that I know people who felt this way and I know students become angry and develop inferiority issues over it but its temporary, and after a while, it completely stops mattering and all the firms blend together.

Oh yeah for sure that's ridiculous, you can get stone as a 2L or even a 3L, throw it on the resume, work a couple months and lateral on up the Vault ranking in 2 seconds. The prestige game is stupid--see the continued success of the venerable, but below market paying, investment bank, Salomon Brothers.

And as for the networking post above, I disagree, but I hated law school itself, mostly socialized with other friends and work in a field that is not so "law" heavy.

[White Dwarf]

How do Fall/Spring externships not offered through CLS work? Do you have to get them approved by the school, or do we just not get any credit for them?

Also, what is the timeline for applying to these? I've seen a couple with April deadlines, but it seems like a lot of places haven't even posted their Fall applications yet.

[GreenEggs]

How do Fall/Spring externships not offered through CLS work? Do you have to get them approved by the school, or do we just not get any credit for them?

Also, what is the timeline for applying to these? I've seen a couple with April deadlines, but it seems like a lot of places haven't even posted their Fall applications yet.

You don't get them approved because you don't get any credit for them. The exception to this is if you do that one externship with the SJI person (you apply for it and already missed the deadline). That option gives you credit for doing an externship of your choice.

[Nebby]

How do Fall/Spring externships not offered through CLS work? Do you have to get them approved by the school, or do we just not get any credit for them?

Also, what is the timeline for applying to these? I've seen a couple with April deadlines, but it seems like a lot of places haven't even posted their Fall applications yet.

You don't get them approved because you don't get any credit for them. The exception to this is if you do that one externship with the SJI person (you apply for it and already missed the deadline). That option gives you credit for doing an externship of your choice.

Advocacy In Theory and Practice with Kurtz?

[GreenEggs]

How do Fall/Spring externships not offered through CLS work? Do you have to get them approved by the school, or do we just not get any credit for them?

Also, what is the timeline for applying to these? I've seen a couple with April deadlines, but it seems like a lot of places haven't even posted their Fall applications yet.

You don't get them approved because you don't get any credit for them. The exception to this is if you do that one externship with the SJI person (you apply for it and already missed the deadline). That option gives you credit for doing an externship of your choice.

Advocacy In Theory and Practice with Kurtz?

Yeah this is the only way you can apparently get credit for an externship not through the school.

[Nebby]

How do Fall/Spring externships not offered through CLS work? Do you have to get them approved by the school, or do we just not get any credit for them?

Also, what is the timeline for applying to these? I've seen a couple with April deadlines, but it seems like a lot of places haven't even posted their Fall applications yet.

You don't get them approved because you don't get any credit for them. The exception to this is if you do that one externship with the SJI person (you apply for it and already missed the deadline). That option gives you credit for doing an externship of your choice.

Advocacy In Theory and Practice with Kurtz?

Yeah this is the only way you can apparently get credit for an externship not through the school.

It's a seminar. When I took it you just had to get into it like any other seminar. Now you have to apply?

[GreenEggs]

How do Fall/Spring externships not offered through CLS work? Do you have to get them approved by the school, or do we just not get any credit for them?

Also, what is the timeline for applying to these? I've seen a couple with April deadlines, but it seems like a lot of places haven't even posted their Fall applications yet.

You don't get them approved because you don't get any credit for them. The exception to this is if you do that one externship with the SJI person (you apply for it and already missed the deadline). That option gives you credit for doing an externship of your choice.

Advocacy In Theory and Practice with Kurtz?

Yeah this is the only way you can apparently get credit for an externship not through the school.

It's a seminar. When I took it you just had to get into it like any other seminar. Now you have to apply?

Maybe you don't apply then. I had thought it was capped, but I could be wrong on that. In which case maybe you can still get credit, but it has to be through that program/seminar w/e

[almondjoy]

If I want to take the MPRE in the fall, is there a time when I should register to get a good/nearby location? I feel like there is next to zero guidance on mpre stuff and I remember hearing people saying they had to rent a car and drive somewhere out in the boonies to take the test.

[Nebby]

How do Fall/Spring externships not offered through CLS work? Do you have to get them approved by the school, or do we just not get any credit for them?

Also, what is the timeline for applying to these? I've seen a couple with April deadlines, but it seems like a lot of places haven't even posted their Fall applications yet.

You don't get them approved because you don't get any credit for them. The exception to this is if you do that one externship with the SJI person (you apply for it and already missed the deadline). That option gives you credit for doing an externship of your choice.

Advocacy In Theory and Practice with Kurtz?

Yeah this is the only way you can apparently get credit for an externship not through the school.

It's a seminar. When I took it you just had to get into it like any other seminar. Now you have to apply?

Maybe you don't apply then. I had thought it was capped, but I could be wrong on that. In which case maybe you can still get credit, but it has to be through that program/seminar w/e

White Dwarf, I did the Advocacy in Theory and Practice seminar/fieldwork. Seminar is in the fall, but you can do the fieldwork in either fall or spring. The fieldwork is 1 credit per 5 hours/week. I worked 16 hours a week (full day on M/F) and got 3 credits (it's capped at 3 credits). The only requirement is that the fieldwork placement: (1) is related to legal advocacy for social change, such as an impact organization such as ACLU/Center for Reproductive Rights, etc. or at organizations sepcializing in things such as immigration, domestic violence/sexual assault, advocating for children in abusive situations, etc.; and (2) you have to obtain the placement yourself, which means you apply to their fall or spring internship posting. If they don't have one, you can always reach out and tell them you want to work for them part-time for school credit, etc. I recommend, if you're at all interested in this route, to set up a meeting with Maddie Kurtz. She's also on the 8th floor of Big Warren

[Nebby]

If I want to take the MPRE in the fall, is there a time when I should register to get a good/nearby location? I feel like there is next to zero guidance on mpre stuff and I remember hearing people saying they had to rent a car and drive somewhere out in the boonies to take the test.

If you go to the webiste where you register for it there should be the date posted when registration opens. Just register as soon as it opens to ensure you get a good spot. There are only 3 spots in Manhattan, and I didn't get them. I chose Brooklyn College because it's at the end of the 2 and a straight shot basically from Morningside. Remember: You can't take a phone with you, so I chose a location that was so easy to get to I knew I could do it without a phone.

[almondjoy]

If I want to take the MPRE in the fall, is there a time when I should register to get a good/nearby location? I feel like there is next to zero guidance on mpre stuff and I remember hearing people saying they had to rent a car and drive somewhere out in the boonies to take the test.

If you go to the webiste where you register for it there should be the date posted when registration opens. Just register as soon as it opens to ensure you get a good spot. There are only 3 spots in Manhattan, and I didn't get them. I chose Brooklyn College because it's at the end of the 2 and a straight shot basically from Morningside. Remember: You can't take a phone with you, so I chose a location that was so easy to get to I knew I could do it without a phone.

Awesome, thanks.

ETA: registration for fall 2016 is already open for anyone else interested. CUNY is still available too, which is really close by.

[White Dwarf]

Thanks, Nebby. I'll look into that.

[RSN]

Thoughts on new class of 2015 employment numbers? These weren't out already, were they? http://web.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... statistics

[jbagelboy]

Thoughts on new class of 2015 employment numbers? These weren't out already, were they? http://web.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... statistics

Not really any different from c/o 2014.. Very mild improvement

[nicknar]

Have any of you done the Mass Incarceration clinic? How was the experience? (Also would be interested in thoughts on any of the clinics, and the clinical program as a whole)

[john_brown]

Has anyone here taken Shechtman's criminal adjudication class? How hard was the exam?

[Tiago Splitter]

Has anyone here taken Shechtman's criminal adjudication class? How hard was the exam?

Straightforward multiple choice. Helps to know the cases.

[jrc223]

can anyone ballpark the upper year curve for lectures and seminars?