So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate? Forum

[duppyconqueror]

^
Just how bad is the academia job market for liberal arts subjects? Is it really lottery odds just to get an assistant professorship?...

You will not get a tenure-track professorial position with a freshly-minted liberal arts PhD unless:
(1) you attend a T6-equivalent in your specific subject of study;
(2) get lucky with your dissertation referee, i.e. they don't think you are coming for their job and accordingly try to sabotage your dissertation;
(3) decide to study a hot topic in your niche of academia;
(4) get to present and write a LOT on that niche you lucked into; and
(5) you send out hundreds of incredibly long applications all across the country, ready to move to literally anywhere at a moment's notice.

I worked part-time at a post-doctoral academic center at my Ivy UG. We selected 5-7 postdocs a year from literally 4000 applications, and each year 1 or 2 of those postdocs would have to ask us for an extension on their fellowship so they could continue to job-search. You could not come up with a less efficient job market if you started from scratch with the devil's help.

To this I would also add that the academic hiring process can be very protracted and opaque, and for better or worse, affirmative action in various forms disfavors white dudes in traditional disciplines. I also observed that favoritism due to "connections" and nepotism is particularly rampant.

[Cynic]

^
Just how bad is the academia job market for liberal arts subjects? Is it really lottery odds just to get an assistant professorship?...

You will not get a tenure-track professorial position with a freshly-minted liberal arts PhD unless:
(1) you attend a T6-equivalent in your specific subject of study;
(2) get lucky with your dissertation referee, i.e. they don't think you are coming for their job and accordingly try to sabotage your dissertation;
(3) decide to study a hot topic in your niche of academia;
(4) get to present and write a LOT on that niche you lucked into; and
(5) you send out hundreds of incredibly long applications all across the country, ready to move to literally anywhere at a moment's notice.

I worked part-time at a post-doctoral academic center at my Ivy UG. We selected 5-7 postdocs a year from literally 4000 applications, and each year 1 or 2 of those postdocs would have to ask us for an extension on their fellowship so they could continue to job-search. You could not come up with a less efficient job market if you started from scratch with the devil's help.

To this I would also add that the academic hiring process can be very protracted and opaque, and for better or worse, affirmative action in various forms disfavors white dudes in traditional disciplines. I also observed that favoritism due to "connections" and nepotism is particularly rampant.

So the assistant professors I know in English and Political Science at Cornell are not the norm-- they're extreme outliers of high achievement/luck? They just seem like normal people to me.

How difficult is getting tenure once you get an Assistant Professorship? This sounds even worse than law, especially since the salary for a full professor is less than a first-year associate.

[jbagelboy]

^
Just how bad is the academia job market for liberal arts subjects? Is it really lottery odds just to get an assistant professorship?...

You will not get a tenure-track professorial position with a freshly-minted liberal arts PhD unless:
(1) you attend a T6-equivalent in your specific subject of study;
(2) get lucky with your dissertation referee, i.e. they don't think you are coming for their job and accordingly try to sabotage your dissertation;
(3) decide to study a hot topic in your niche of academia;
(4) get to present and write a LOT on that niche you lucked into; and
(5) you send out hundreds of incredibly long applications all across the country, ready to move to literally anywhere at a moment's notice.

I worked part-time at a post-doctoral academic center at my Ivy UG. We selected 5-7 postdocs a year from literally 4000 applications, and each year 1 or 2 of those postdocs would have to ask us for an extension on their fellowship so they could continue to job-search. You could not come up with a less efficient job market if you started from scratch with the devil's help.

To this I would also add that the academic hiring process can be very protracted and opaque, and for better or worse, affirmative action in various forms disfavors white dudes in traditional disciplines. I also observed that favoritism due to "connections" and nepotism is particularly rampant.

So the assistant professors I know in English and Political Science at Cornell are not the norm-- they're extreme outliers of high achievement/luck? They just seem like normal people to me.

How difficult is getting tenure once you get an Assistant Professorship? This sounds even worse than law, especially since the salary for a full professor is less than a first-year associate.

Tenured faculty in the humanities isn't a realistic alternative to law in terms of compensation/job security for most people. You can't think of it that way. The people that get into it arent in it for the salary, the working conditions, the prestige, the employability.

[duppyconqueror]

So the assistant professors I know in English and Political Science at Cornell are not the norm-- they're extreme outliers of high achievement/luck? They just seem like normal people to me.

Extreme outliers. They are living the dream, but even so their situations may be precarious.

[Cynic]

What? Living the dream is making a 70 k salary while having to work 60+ hour work-weeks just to have a chance at tenure? And even if you get tenure, so what?... You're trapped in an undesirable area for the rest of your life making 120 k.

This thread is depressing.

[PMan99]

What? Living the dream is making a 70 k salary while having to work 60+ hour work-weeks just to have a chance at tenure? And even if you get tenure, so what?... You're trapped in an undesirable area for the rest of your life making 120 k.

This thread is depressing.

To offer some optimism, I think generic corporate jobs are way underrated by most 0Ls. The starting salaries will pale in comparison to biglaw, banking, etc. but there's usually far more security, better perks, better people, etc, and to the extent you really have the talent to succeed and get a job in a sexier profession, you should do well working in a "less desirable" one. In fact the people I'm most jealous of aren't those who went into buy side finance or became doctors but those who went into small to medium/large size corporations and are now rising stars with a great lifestyle and an easy, predictable 9-6 schedule. They may never have a realistic shot at biglaw rainmaker partner money, but to be honest, neither do law students. A number go to b school to break into higher levels of management.

[A. Nony Mouse]

What? Living the dream is making a 70 k salary while having to work 60+ hour work-weeks just to have a chance at tenure? And even if you get tenure, so what?... You're trapped in an undesirable area for the rest of your life making 120 k.

This thread is depressing.

This is exactly what academia is like. And $70k and $120k would still be high in a lot of institutions. Academia is absolutely much worse than law.

Assistant profs in English and Poli Sci at Cornell are absolute rock stars. They're the 1% of humanities/social science PhDs. And they still had to get lucky and have the stars align just so to get there.

[Danger Zone]

What? Living the dream is making a 70 k salary while having to work 60+ hour work-weeks just to have a chance at tenure? And even if you get tenure, so what?... You're trapped in an undesirable area for the rest of your life making 120 k.

This thread is depressing.

To offer some optimism, I think generic corporate jobs are way underrated by most 0Ls. The starting salaries will pale in comparison to biglaw, banking, etc. but there's usually far more security, better perks, better people, etc, and to the extent you really have the talent to succeed and get a job in a sexier profession, you should do well working in a "less desirable" one. In fact the people I'm most jealous of aren't those who went into buy side finance or became doctors but those who went into small to medium/large size corporations and are now rising stars with a great lifestyle and an easy, predictable 9-6 schedule. They may never have a realistic shot at biglaw rainmaker partner money, but to be honest, neither do law students. A number go to b school to break into higher levels of management.

I miss my generic corporate job. Ultimately I left because I was bored out of my mind, but it's easy to be a high achiever in an atmosphere like that.

[gp86]

To offer some optimism, I think generic corporate jobs are way underrated by most 0Ls. The starting salaries will pale in comparison to biglaw, banking, etc. but there's usually far more security, better perks, better people, etc, and to the extent you really have the talent to succeed and get a job in a sexier profession, you should do well working in a "less desirable" one. In fact the people I'm most jealous of aren't those who went into buy side finance or became doctors but those who went into small to medium/large size corporations and are now rising stars with a great lifestyle and an easy, predictable 9-6 schedule. They may never have a realistic shot at biglaw rainmaker partner money, but to be honest, neither do law students. A number go to b school to break into higher levels of management.

Completely agree, and this is what really kills me. I came into biglaw in my late twenties making much more than most of my friends - well, besides the ones in finance, who had long since finished their analyst days and had settled into the relatively comfortable life on the buy side. Like many people on this board, I thought I was above general corporate jobs, and that I'd worked too hard for something "non prestigious." But I honestly envy my friends who scrapped by with 2.0s in college and settled into insurance, commercial real estate, etc. 10 years out, they make good money, work 9-5 (if that), and, most importantly, are on an upward trajectory. They'll likely never make MD/partner money, but $250k+ towards their 50s is likely. And they'll never know what it's like to be up for 48 hours straight trying to maintain complete focus.

Meanwhile I'm burned out and would take a significant pay cut and completely reset my career path in my early 30s to regain some control of my life.

[donde]

This is really interesting. Is it the general consensus that non-law business exit options are a true option out of SV firms? Curious to hear others' opinions

There's a higher chance, but still not the norm - it will definitely require hustle, connections and likely a significant pay-cut. In my experience in-house legal jobs at startups or tech companies are still the far more common exits (still not a bad gig compared to the typical in-house role!). However, once you get to a startup, if you do well and the startup grows, it can be much easier to switch to a non-legal role at that point. Startup people naturally tend to wear many hats, and startups are under-staffed so it's easier to make the case for you taking over an additional non-legal area.

[rpupkin]

What? Living the dream is making a 70 k salary while having to work 60+ hour work-weeks just to have a chance at tenure? And even if you get tenure, so what?... You're trapped in an undesirable area for the rest of your life making 120 k.

This thread is depressing.

This is exactly what academia is like. And $70k and $120k would still be high in a lot of institutions. Academia is absolutely much worse than law.

Assistant profs in English and Poli Sci at Cornell are absolute rock stars. They're the 1% of humanities/social science PhDs. And they still had to get lucky and have the stars align just so to get there.

Yep. Entering grad school with the goal of landing a tenure-track humanities/social science position at a top school is like going to law school with the goal of clerking on SCOTUS.

[lurker816]

Not sure if this is a super constructive contribution to this thread, and I'm an 0L (so, grain of salt), but I used to paralegal at a V20 (lit for one year, corp for the next) and everything in this thread is completely consistent with my experience. I speak with midlevels/juniors regularly who deplore me not to take the plunge and attend law school, especially after seeing what the experience was like firsthand - at my old firm, even paras were privy to the last minute client demands/contact/vacation cancelling, etc. I am 90% still going to school, but plan on doing everything I can from day 1 forward to work for the gov immediately after law school, and I'm certain I would have tried to work for a firm had I not gained this exposure. I feel like I don't have much of a choice w/r/t to attending, with my fancy overpriced undergrad humanities degree - I also liked certain aspects of the legal world far more than the universe of politics/political consulting, which is my current area of employment, and have stumbled upon a gov practice/policy area that really excites me. That said, most of my friends who scored consulting gigs immediately after college and previously had planned on law school are no longer even remotely thinking about attending.

I'm not sure how many super-0Ls lurk around these parts, but if you're a K-JD set on biglaw or whatever, I would highly recommend trying to get a para position at a top firm for a year or two. Sure, I say this in part to validate my personal experience/choices (though I will fully admit that I am still a very confused 25 year old who has certainly squandered some past opportunities, and an LSAT under-performer to boot) but I think seeing how a big firm works from the inside has been invaluable to my future planning. Some people I worked with absolutely loved the constant excitement, big deals, seeing their cases on the front page of the Times, and ran off to law school and probably will return to the firm without a second thought. But more, like me, have seriously reconsidered.

[Tempo]

I'm a biglaw associate here to offer a counterpoint.

I do corporate work for one of the big silicon valley firms (Wilson/Fenwick/Cooley/Gunderson), and have had a different experience than OP w/r/t exit options. He is totally right about how boring the work is, how long the hours can be (though I don't think ours are quite as long), etc. But, in SV, it is very common for associates to exit to business side options. What OP describes is a very formulaic sounding career path, and he speaks in absolutes about what types of candidates banks and PE shops will accept. But, at least in SV, that really isn't the case. Here, credentials matter way less and it is much more about how you know. If you are a chill, likeable bro, you can find something good (whether it's staying in law or leaving law).

I'm still at the firm, but I see exit memos all the time for people leaving to non-law roles, law roles at cool startups, etc.

TL;DR--don't go to NY

As far as you know, do top NY schools have a good chance at a job in the SV? I'm probably attending NYU but would love to work in Cali.

[cattleprod]

What? Living the dream is making a 70 k salary while having to work 60+ hour work-weeks just to have a chance at tenure? And even if you get tenure, so what?... You're trapped in an undesirable area for the rest of your life making 120 k.

This thread is depressing.

Re-direct your life into a high demand field.
The legal industry and academia are flooded with people that have better credentials than you do.

Go Computer Science. Your phone will ring off the hook with job offers and you will be making $100,000+ within 3 years of graduating. That is with an undergraduate degree. No advanced degree required.

[Otunga]

What? Living the dream is making a 70 k salary while having to work 60+ hour work-weeks just to have a chance at tenure? And even if you get tenure, so what?... You're trapped in an undesirable area for the rest of your life making 120 k.

This thread is depressing.

Re-direct your life into a high demand field.
The legal industry and academia are flooded with people that have better credentials than you do.

Go Computer Science. Your phone will ring off the hook with job offers and you will be making $100,000+ within 3 years of graduating. That is with an undergraduate degree. No advanced degree required.

Well, software engineering job requirements can be very esoteric. I wouldn't say that the phone will ring off the hook with job offers - it depends on what technologies in particular that you'll be working with. Granted, I do think it's a job seeker's market and a ton of mediocre programmers can start out making 60k as a floor in a low to average COL area. More typically, entry-level salary in an average COL context is between 70-80k. Then you have the entry-level people in San Fran making 120k and over.

In any case, I highly recommend to anybody that's uncertain about law school/career outlook to consider computer science. You don't have to be top of your class to get a career- you don't even have to be top 75% grade-wise if you can prove your programming competence in interviews.

[mvp99]

I'm not an expert but I think the current tech bubble will burst in the next 5 years or so. too much money has been invested in start ups by people and companies that think they bought the next airbnb, uber, fb etc. etc. This is not the 2000s but i think its still a bubble.

[Otunga]

I'm not an expert but I think the current tech bubble will burst in the next 5 years or so. too much money has been invested in start ups by people and companies that think they bought the next airbnb, uber, fb etc. etc. This is not the 2000s but i think its still a bubble.

I'm not sure that's true, but even if we assume it, there are many large companies to work for and they hire in bulk every year. It's true that one shouldn't major in computer science if all they care about is money - I think one should like to program at least a little bit.

Either way, one doesn't have to be a programmer their entire career, as there are many partially technical and non-technical ways to go after being an entry-level software engineer for a little while. It isn't just a matter of being a programmer or stopping working with software - I'm not attributing that view to you, but it does seem to be a view had by many.

[cattleprod]

I'm not an expert but I think the current tech bubble will burst in the next 5 years or so. too much money has been invested in start ups by people and companies that think they bought the next airbnb, uber, fb etc. etc. This is not the 2000s but i think its still a bubble.

Software engineering, programming, network engineering, etc... is not just limited to tech companies. Just about every company of any size has a technical department. They have software engineers, QA testers, project managers, business analysts, etc. banks, retail, manufacturing, government, etc. They all need the same skills as the tech companies you are thinking of. And they all have to pay competitively in order to attract talent.

There are plenty of jobs inside of tech that are not directly programming. Project management or business analyst is something that I could see many ex-lawyers attempt, as long as they are not tech-phobic.

I recently did a job change to a major retail company. $10 billion plus in revenues. They had to offer me the same market rate that I was getting at Microsoft. In fact, the retail company offered a better stock and bonus plan than Microsoft. Total compensation is more than I made at Microsoft with a faster vesting schedule on the stock grants.

So don't limit your vision of "tech" to just tech companies. It is much broader than that. Every company of any size views their tech department as a competitive necessity.

I got out of the legal industry in my late 20s and never regretted it. I found this topic via a link on another website. (JDU) I have not posted here in years.

I don't want people to get the idea that tech is easy and everyone should do a code boot camp. It is not that easy. Most people cannot get their brain wrapped around C# or SQL. But you don't have to. There are plenty of business roles also linked to the overall tech economy. You don't have to sling code. Project management may not pay as well, but it still is in the $100,000 range after a few years and can lead into senior management.

[lawlorbust]

I'm not sure how many super-0Ls lurk around these parts, but if you're a K-JD set on biglaw or whatever, I would highly recommend trying to get a para position at a top firm for a year or two. Sure, I say this in part to validate my personal experience/choices (though I will fully admit that I am still a very confused 25 year old who has certainly squandered some past opportunities, and an LSAT under-performer to boot) but I think seeing how a big firm works from the inside has been invaluable to my future planning. Some people I worked with absolutely loved the constant excitement, big deals, seeing their cases on the front page of the Times, and ran off to law school and probably will return to the firm without a second thought. But more, like me, have seriously reconsidered.

Counter-advice: don't do this.

Unless you have a very particular profile where you have great stats for law school (GPA/LSAT) but aren't competitive for other "good jobs" out of college, get other post-college work experience with optionality or room for advancement. It's hard to come back from being a biglaw paralegal (and ironically not to have law school as your only option by default) when you realize that being an attorney is not for you.

[J90]

What are your thoughts on Cravath, or at least their rotation system more specifically?

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

i see this shit a lot on TLS but telling people who are unsure about law to go try it out by being a paralegal is a horrible fucking advice. once you get labeled as a paralegal it becomes SUPER HARD to get another job. it's like a BA undergrad equivalent of trying to get a non-law job with a JD on your resume.

[bretby]

i see this shit a lot on TLS but telling people who are unsure about law to go try it out by being a paralegal is a horrible fucking advice. once you get labeled as a paralegal it becomes SUPER HARD to get another job. it's like a BA undergrad equivalent of trying to get a non-law job with a JD on your resume.

I have not found that to be true at all. Paralegal skills translate well into a variety of generic corporate jobs that are looking for generic skills (attention to detail, working in a high stress environment with unpredictable and inflexible deadlines, teamwork, etc.) A lot of it is how well you self yourself.

[throwaway_]

i see this shit a lot on TLS but telling people who are unsure about law to go try it out by being a paralegal is a horrible fucking advice. once you get labeled as a paralegal it becomes SUPER HARD to get another job. it's like a BA undergrad equivalent of trying to get a non-law job with a JD on your resume.

I have not found that to be true at all. Paralegal skills translate well into a variety of generic corporate jobs that are looking for generic skills (attention to detail, working in a high stress environment with unpredictable and inflexible deadlines, teamwork, etc.) A lot of it is how well you self yourself.

Their post-firm outcomes seem really random, but aside from law I've only seen paralegals - with good college backgrounds - move regularly to marketing and HR.

[bretby]

i see this shit a lot on TLS but telling people who are unsure about law to go try it out by being a paralegal is a horrible fucking advice. once you get labeled as a paralegal it becomes SUPER HARD to get another job. it's like a BA undergrad equivalent of trying to get a non-law job with a JD on your resume.

I have not found that to be true at all. Paralegal skills translate well into a variety of generic corporate jobs that are looking for generic skills (attention to detail, working in a high stress environment with unpredictable and inflexible deadlines, teamwork, etc.) A lot of it is how well you self yourself.

Their post-firm outcomes seem really random, but aside from law I've only seen paralegals - with good college backgrounds - move regularly to marketing and HR.

I've seen people successfully go all kinds of places, from consulting, to publishing, to tech, to leaving corporate life and going into the arts, teaching or social services, but I realize it's only anecdotal. Telling someone to be a paralegal certainly isn't horrible advice, but neither is it particularly good advice - it's just run-of-the-mill.

[Danger Zone]

I'm not an expert but I think the current tech bubble will burst in the next 5 years or so. too much money has been invested in start ups by people and companies that think they bought the next airbnb, uber, fb etc. etc. This is not the 2000s but i think its still a bubble.

Software engineering, programming, network engineering, etc... is not just limited to tech companies. Just about every company of any size has a technical department. They have software engineers, QA testers, project managers, business analysts, etc. banks, retail, manufacturing, government, etc. They all need the same skills as the tech companies you are thinking of. And they all have to pay competitively in order to attract talent.

There are plenty of jobs inside of tech that are not directly programming. Project management or business analyst is something that I could see many ex-lawyers attempt, as long as they are not tech-phobic.

I recently did a job change to a major retail company. $10 billion plus in revenues. They had to offer me the same market rate that I was getting at Microsoft. In fact, the retail company offered a better stock and bonus plan than Microsoft. Total compensation is more than I made at Microsoft with a faster vesting schedule on the stock grants.

So don't limit your vision of "tech" to just tech companies. It is much broader than that. Every company of any size views their tech department as a competitive necessity.

I got out of the legal industry in my late 20s and never regretted it. I found this topic via a link on another website. (JDU) I have not posted here in years.

I don't want people to get the idea that tech is easy and everyone should do a code boot camp. It is not that easy. Most people cannot get their brain wrapped around C# or SQL. But you don't have to. There are plenty of business roles also linked to the overall tech economy. You don't have to sling code. Project management may not pay as well, but it still is in the $100,000 range after a few years and can lead into senior management.

Sql guy: what languages do you recommend learning? What languages apply to what types of jobs? What kind of positions would someone with zero programming background, other than what they teach themselves, be eligible for? How do you get experience if nothing in your background screams tech?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm extremely curious