The BigLaw hate buffet Forum

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

Without naming firms, I can say for certain that this is not true for all biglaw shops, and that some subsidized at 100% for single people, while others are at like 80-90%.

Still, it is fair warning to others about the range in packages and what to expect.

With naming firms, does any v20 have 80%+?

Counting Wachtell (if it's true there, I don't have personal knowledge of Wachtell), there would be at least 3 in the v20 at 80%+

[wildhaggis]

Bros, seriously thinking of quitting once I hit a year. I drew the short straw and have had a pretty horrific first year - getting harder and harder to deal with it. I'm not totally fucking myself (debt level aside) by bailing after a year, am I?

[rpupkin]

Bros, seriously thinking of quitting once I hit a year. I drew the short straw and have had a pretty horrific first year - getting harder and harder to deal with it. I'm not totally fucking myself (debt level aside) by bailing after a year, am I?

I'm sure you've been observing fleeing associates and have noticed that, overall, third-year associates have better exit options than first-year associates. But if you can find someplace good to go after one year, why not?

[MarkRenton]

You can't enjoy anything: I think what I found the most difficult is that I hated my life when I was working around the clock, barely sleeping. However, the times when I got slow and my hours became sane, it was so unnerving. I was sure I was fired or being phased out. There's almost no comfortable equilibrium regarding an amount of tolerable work where you aren't scared for your job. If I leave at 6pm, I'm scared the partners will notice and that I'll get the rep as a slacker/can't be relied upon. Stay till 11pm, well obviously I'll hate that too.

Partners don't give two shits about your life: I can't think of the number of times when I gave a partner work on like a Tuesday morning and he decided to make edits at 5pm on a Friday when he's heading out for the weekend. But he needs these edits and extra research back within 24 hours. Although he had all week to look this over, he casually blew up my weekend. Why not do me the favor and just take a peak at my work on a Thursday?

Miscommunications: I want to echo Rayiner's sentiment that you are strictly liable for a partner's miscommunications--especially considering that most of them pride themselves on being so precise. So they couldn't fathom the idea that they could be misunderstood making you look like a jackass.

Working on vacation: Even if you just take one day off, you're probably going to be logging in remotely to do something that some partner needs now. This is what really proves that as long as you work at the firm, you're always on. ALWAYS.

The number of people who can blow up your weekend: Sometimes you work for cool partners who think it'd be good if you had the weekend to yourself. But then the client emails saying they need xyz NOW. Welp, there we go again

Mid-level associates: Some of those guys will throw you under the bus so fast because they know they're at the stage of their career where they may be shown the door due to slighter mistakes. And they didn't get to be fifth years by not being a bit devious. They also gossip a ton, discussing who's going to last, not going to last, etc. They can, whether rightly or wrongly, establish your reputation.

Despite hating big law, not knowing what could be better: I mean, at least your working on some cool matters, right? It's a terrible terrible job, but if you leave, what the hell are you going to do? In-house? Isn't that like being put out to pasture? Clerking? That's a one-year gig... You really have this realization that there may be no job that can validate going to law school.

No time for errands ever: When I finally have time to spend with my significant other, she doesn't want to do all the time consuming errands I couldn't do during the week. She really wishes that I'd go to the DMV "when I have free time without her." Y'know, "like over your lunch break or something." I also have to resist the urge to treat her like my assistant: "hey, can you pick up my dry cleaning today and then get some milk? Also mail this..."

Getting yelled at at 10pm: Makes your regret all decisions that you have made for the past 6 or 7 years.

[Theopliske8711]

You guys should watch the netflix documentary on stress: Stress: Portrait of a Killer. It's pretty interesting how relevant it is to what you guys state about biglaw.

[peter2009]

Living frugally is really easy when somebody else is paying for your meals + transportation and taking away any time you had for debauchery

Do people receive a set amount for meals when they stay late (around $25-40?) that is added to their pay check no matter if they actually spend up to that amount for dinner, or do you just get to order food from the firm's seamless account up to $25-40?

[thesealocust]

Living frugally is really easy when somebody else is paying for your meals + transportation and taking away any time you had for debauchery

Do people receive a set amount for meals when they stay late (around $25-40?) that is added to their pay check no matter if they actually spend up to that amount for dinner, or do you just get to order food from the firm's seamless account up to $25-40?

Policies vary, but I've never heard of an "allowance" model - usually the firm has a seamless account (easy/fast/mindless), some firms have cafeterias, and sometimes you can submit a receipt for reimbursement for a meal.

[09042014]

Living frugally is really easy when somebody else is paying for your meals + transportation and taking away any time you had for debauchery

Do people receive a set amount for meals when they stay late (around $25-40?) that is added to their pay check no matter if they actually spend up to that amount for dinner, or do you just get to order food from the firm's seamless account up to $25-40?

Policies vary, but I've never heard of an "allowance" model - usually the firm has a seamless account (easy/fast/mindless), some firms have cafeterias, and sometimes you can submit a receipt for reimbursement for a meal.

Yea, I have to just submit a receipt. But it's not very commonly done since my firm culture is very friendly to work from home.

I don't know what would happen if I expensed like 3 nights a week, but I don't really wanna find out.

[thesealocust]

I don't know what would happen if I expensed like 3 nights a week, but I don't really wanna find out.

(sob story response about the contrast of our lives that will just be useless, beaten to death whining goes: here)

[lawman4]

And this is exactly why I dropped higher schools to take a full ride elsewhere.

I can work in an interesting field with great hours and less stress while my lawlschool buddies are miserably trying to collect money to pay off ole' sally mae.

female court reporters > money

[84651846190]

Living frugally is really easy when somebody else is paying for your meals + transportation and taking away any time you had for debauchery

Do people receive a set amount for meals when they stay late (around $25-40?) that is added to their pay check no matter if they actually spend up to that amount for dinner, or do you just get to order food from the firm's seamless account up to $25-40?

Policies vary, but I've never heard of an "allowance" model - usually the firm has a seamless account (easy/fast/mindless), some firms have cafeterias, and sometimes you can submit a receipt for reimbursement for a meal.

Our firm's Seamless account gives you a "lol, no" if you try to spend too much money.

[Abbie Doobie]

I just discovered this thread today. It feels like home.


And by home I mean the office.

[MarkRenton]

I just discovered this thread today. It feels like home.


And by home I mean the office.

[HRomanus]

This indenture was clearly written at four in the morning by a junior associate at a law firm, and whether or not it allows Caesars to do what it wants to do is pretty much a matter of dumb luck. If the junior associate had written "or," we wouldn't be here. He wrote "and," so we are. If he'd written "I AM SO TIRED AND I HATE BONDS," it probably would have made it into the final indenture as easily as the "and" did. Who was checking?

The entire edifice of modern financial capitalism is built on 100-page documents drafted by exhausted 26-year-olds and read by nobody. The reason disputes like this always bring out people talking about how important it is to dig deep into the documents is that nobody ever does.

From: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... illion-and

Thoughts from the hate buffet? Realistic? If so - Stressful? Empowering?

[JusticeHarlan]

This indenture was clearly written at four in the morning by a junior associate at a law firm, and whether or not it allows Caesars to do what it wants to do is pretty much a matter of dumb luck. If the junior associate had written "or," we wouldn't be here. He wrote "and," so we are. If he'd written "I AM SO TIRED AND I HATE BONDS," it probably would have made it into the final indenture as easily as the "and" did. Who was checking?

The entire edifice of modern financial capitalism is built on 100-page documents drafted by exhausted 26-year-olds and read by nobody. The reason disputes like this always bring out people talking about how important it is to dig deep into the documents is that nobody ever does.

From: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... illion-and

Thoughts from the hate buffet? Realistic? If so - Stressful? Empowering?

Realistic? Sorta. The midlevel/senior isn't going to just have the junior send a draft over to the other side without taking a look.

But many times they'll only look at a blackline. See the "Lawyers tell you how to get no offered" thread for a discussion of how easy it is to run a blackline. And it's very, very easy to run a blackline. But all it takes is some rushed first year to make a few slight changes in the active version instead of versioning up, so that the changes (including the "and") doesn't show up as a change in the blackline after the next major set of changes are run. If that's all everyone looks at, your "and" sneaks in there without anyone actually reading it.

The most unrealistic thing in there was the use of the word "written" in the first line. The first year didn't write the indenture. He, at most, copied it from some precedent document and changed the names. Odds are there's another one of these with an "and" floating around out there from the same law firm.

Alternative theory would be that Caesar's lawyers deliberately put it in there themselves and no one on the other side picked up on it.

[09042014]

This indenture was clearly written at four in the morning by a junior associate at a law firm, and whether or not it allows Caesars to do what it wants to do is pretty much a matter of dumb luck. If the junior associate had written "or," we wouldn't be here. He wrote "and," so we are. If he'd written "I AM SO TIRED AND I HATE BONDS," it probably would have made it into the final indenture as easily as the "and" did. Who was checking?

The entire edifice of modern financial capitalism is built on 100-page documents drafted by exhausted 26-year-olds and read by nobody. The reason disputes like this always bring out people talking about how important it is to dig deep into the documents is that nobody ever does.

From: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... illion-and

Thoughts from the hate buffet? Realistic? If so - Stressful? Empowering?

Exhibit A for why I could never be a corporate associate. I forget "Not" way way way too often.

[Power_of_Facing]

This indenture was clearly written at four in the morning by a junior associate at a law firm, and whether or not it allows Caesars to do what it wants to do is pretty much a matter of dumb luck. If the junior associate had written "or," we wouldn't be here. He wrote "and," so we are. If he'd written "I AM SO TIRED AND I HATE BONDS," it probably would have made it into the final indenture as easily as the "and" did. Who was checking?

The entire edifice of modern financial capitalism is built on 100-page documents drafted by exhausted 26-year-olds and read by nobody. The reason disputes like this always bring out people talking about how important it is to dig deep into the documents is that nobody ever does.

From: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... illion-and

Thoughts from the hate buffet? Realistic? If so - Stressful? Empowering?

Exhibit A for why I could never be a corporate associate. I forget "Not" way way way too often.

“Hear this or not, as you will. Learn it now, or later -- the world has time. Routine, repetition, tedium, monotony, ephemeracy, inconsequence, abstraction, disorder, boredom, angst, ennui -- these are the true hero's enemies, and make no mistake, they are fearsome indeed. For they are real.”

“True heroism is minutes, hours, weeks, year upon year of the quiet, precise, judicious exercise of probity and care—with no one there to see or cheer. This is the world.”

― David Foster Wallace, The Pale King

[jbagelboy]

okay real talk

what's the point of good grades at a top school if all big law winds up at the nadir of human happiness? All the grumbling and growing and shit-throwing accepted a priori, we're left with: if given the chance to do something else, what's the best way to go? clerkship is just a temporary fix and gov work doesn't pay enough to live and start a family when you have six figure debt. Do we just yearn for the halcyon days, our breaths before the plunge? - or should you just go to an above market firm and get marginally higher net return for your shitty life?

Or is TCR to threaten transfer to whatever school is higher ranked on USNWR that year to get an even bigger scholly and reduce debt? It doesn't seem like this is all that reliable. Or do you just accept that even if you've done well, the best you can do is pretty fucking horrible?

What's the solution for current students (0L's still have a chance to walk away), once we've appropriated the flaw in the paradigm and fully comprehend it's just shit at the large firms? Or is this not about creating solutions but just casting the absurdist production?

[SnakySalmon]

okay real talk

what's the point of good grades at a top school if all big law winds up at the nadir of human happiness? All the grumbling and growing and shit-throwing accepted a priori, we're left with: if given the chance to do something else, what's the best way to go? clerkship is just a temporary fix and gov work doesn't pay enough to live and start a family when you have six figure debt. Do we just yearn for the halcyon days, our breaths before the plunge? - or should you just go to an above market firm and get marginally higher net return for your shitty life?

Or is TCR to threaten transfer to whatever school is higher ranked on USNWR that year to get an even bigger scholly and reduce debt? It doesn't seem like this is all that reliable. Or do you just accept that even if you've done well, the best you can do is pretty fucking horrible?

What's the solution for current students (0L's still have a chance to walk away), once we've appropriated the flaw in the paradigm and fully comprehend it's just shit at the large firms? Or is this not about creating solutions but just casting the absurdist production?

Schools with good LRAPs make government possible, and you shouldn't have six figure debt at a school without one.

[jbagelboy]

okay real talk

what's the point of good grades at a top school if all big law winds up at the nadir of human happiness? All the grumbling and growing and shit-throwing accepted a priori, we're left with: if given the chance to do something else, what's the best way to go? clerkship is just a temporary fix and gov work doesn't pay enough to live and start a family when you have six figure debt. Do we just yearn for the halcyon days, our breaths before the plunge? - or should you just go to an above market firm and get marginally higher net return for your shitty life?

Or is TCR to threaten transfer to whatever school is higher ranked on USNWR that year to get an even bigger scholly and reduce debt? It doesn't seem like this is all that reliable. Or do you just accept that even if you've done well, the best you can do is pretty fucking horrible?

What's the solution for current students (0L's still have a chance to walk away), once we've appropriated the flaw in the paradigm and fully comprehend it's just shit at the large firms? Or is this not about creating solutions but just casting the absurdist production?

Schools with good LRAPs make government possible, and you shouldn't have six figure debt at a school without one.

so you think get a fed clerkship -> apply for government agencies is TCR?

[run26.2]

I like the halcyon days bit. But I don't know that we yearn for them as much as we maybe have a view that is skewed because of them. I never knew how much a lawyer made, but I knew he or she did ok. Back in the "halcyon days," assuming you mean the most recent ones, bonuses at some firms (not just Wachtell, etc.) were in the 60k range for seniors and 20-25k for juniors. And there were multiple years with multiple bonuses. I think that probably made the gig more tolerable.

[SnakySalmon]

okay real talk

what's the point of good grades at a top school if all big law winds up at the nadir of human happiness? All the grumbling and growing and shit-throwing accepted a priori, we're left with: if given the chance to do something else, what's the best way to go? clerkship is just a temporary fix and gov work doesn't pay enough to live and start a family when you have six figure debt. Do we just yearn for the halcyon days, our breaths before the plunge? - or should you just go to an above market firm and get marginally higher net return for your shitty life?

Or is TCR to threaten transfer to whatever school is higher ranked on USNWR that year to get an even bigger scholly and reduce debt? It doesn't seem like this is all that reliable. Or do you just accept that even if you've done well, the best you can do is pretty fucking horrible?

What's the solution for current students (0L's still have a chance to walk away), once we've appropriated the flaw in the paradigm and fully comprehend it's just shit at the large firms? Or is this not about creating solutions but just casting the absurdist production?

Schools with good LRAPs make government possible, and you shouldn't have six figure debt at a school without one.

so you think get a fed clerkship -> apply for government agencies is TCR?

Fedgov is the best possible outcome, and has a six figure salary eventually. When you were talking about gov, I was assuming you were talking about state for 50-60k a year.

[thesealocust]

okay real talk

what's the point of good grades at a top school if all big law winds up at the nadir of human happiness? All the grumbling and growing and shit-throwing accepted a priori, we're left with: if given the chance to do something else, what's the best way to go? clerkship is just a temporary fix and gov work doesn't pay enough to live and start a family when you have six figure debt. Do we just yearn for the halcyon days, our breaths before the plunge? - or should you just go to an above market firm and get marginally higher net return for your shitty life?

Or is TCR to threaten transfer to whatever school is higher ranked on USNWR that year to get an even bigger scholly and reduce debt? It doesn't seem like this is all that reliable. Or do you just accept that even if you've done well, the best you can do is pretty fucking horrible?

What's the solution for current students (0L's still have a chance to walk away), once we've appropriated the flaw in the paradigm and fully comprehend it's just shit at the large firms? Or is this not about creating solutions but just casting the absurdist production?

LIFE PRO TIP: Think about what and why you want to do law, then proceed accordingly. The X-factor nobody is talking about is do you actually want to be a lawyer doing this kind of stuff.

Even if you don't, $160K might be worth pinching your nose for a period of time. And if you do, woo-hoo, you earn a lot of money doing it.

I can tell you all about the day to day stresses of my life and the experiences, good and bad, at Name & Ampersand LLP. But I actually want to be a lawyer practicing [aw I'm practicing], I'm glad I did it, and there are enormous life long potential upsides.

Dunno what you're on about w/r/t transfering and USNWR.

The takeaways are: minimize debt, appreciate what you'll be getting yourself into, attending a good enough school to make that realistic, work hard, and keep your eyes open for things and people that make you happy. Most of those apply to most things in life, really.

[brotherdarkness]

.

[Mal Reynolds]

Aren'y you like a two day old SA?