The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc Forum

[MNbound]

Finally, and I know this will piss a lot of people off, but you have to understand that a below median performer at Michigan or Northwestern is probably equal in aptitude to a Mitchell/Hamline/Thomas Summa. LSAT may not be a perfect indicator for law school performance (much less lawyer performance), but when you're talking the diff between schools comprised of LSATs in the 140s and 150s and those with scorers in the high 160s through high 170s, the difference is substantial and real. There, I said it. Bash away...

I'm a 1L at William Mitchell and I scored a 165, I know of at least 5 people who scored higher than me. We're all on full scholarships and I think graduating without debt is preferrable to having a degree from Michigan with 100k+ in debt, especially if you want to practice in MN.

[Gorki]

Finally, and I know this will piss a lot of people off, but you have to understand that a below median performer at Michigan or Northwestern is probably equal in aptitude to a Mitchell/Hamline/Thomas Summa. LSAT may not be a perfect indicator for law school performance (much less lawyer performance), but when you're talking the diff between schools comprised of LSATs in the 140s and 150s and those with scorers in the high 160s through high 170s, the difference is substantial and real. There, I said it. Bash away...

I'm a 1L at William Mitchell and I scored a 165, I know of at least 5 people who scored higher than me. We're all on full scholarships and I think graduating without debt is preferrable to having a degree from Michigan with 100k+ in debt, especially if you want to practice in MN.

But you have to admit you are an outlier at WM. The average for your school is a 155, the top quarter is a 158. You and the 5 others are therefore the exception, not the rule.

EDIT: Source - --LinkRemoved--

[minnbills]

But you have to admit you are an outlier at WM. The average for your school is a 155, the top quarter is a 158. You and the 5 others are therefore the exception, not the rule.

EDIT: Source - --LinkRemoved--

We're talking about a few points on a standardized test under timed conditions- an extremely stressful test no less. The difference between a 155 and a 167 is, like, 2-3 questions per section.

I agree that there is probably some difference between your typical student at the respective schools but I doubt it's substantial.

[Gorki]

But you have to admit you are an outlier at WM. The average for your school is a 155, the top quarter is a 158. You and the 5 others are therefore the exception, not the rule.

EDIT: Source - --LinkRemoved--

We're talking about a few points on a standardized test under timed conditions- an extremely stressful test no less. The difference between a 155 and a 167 is, like, 2-3 questions per section.

I agree that there is probably some difference between your typical student at the respective schools but I doubt it's substantial.

Tbf, and I live in the Twin Cities, most of the people I have met at firm receptions from Michigan or a higher ranked out-of-state school were doing a poor job seeming enthused about MSP. One of them was asked what brought him to MN for the reception, and he froze up and mentioned something about a girlfriend. I do not want to give the impression that t14 or w/e is auto-admit, but if you are genuinely interested in MSP and have some history in the area, your only real competition is going to be UMN students.

I am also not sure if Michigan and the other schools that place really well in the Twin Cities have lotteries or pre-select. I can't speak as to UMN, but the other three schools are substantially pre-select, which is really brutal for students outside the highest percentiles.

[minnbills]

Yeah I'm not denying that UMN students are the only major competition for t-14ers for biglaw jobs, but that has to do with the standards of biglaw re school ranking.

They love DAT preftige.

Also, not a fan of T14ers coming to this market without any real ties or going to school here. It's hard enough without them.

[dru617]

Finally, and I know this will piss a lot of people off, but you have to understand that a below median performer at Michigan or Northwestern is probably equal in aptitude to a Mitchell/Hamline/Thomas Summa. LSAT may not be a perfect indicator for law school performance (much less lawyer performance), but when you're talking the diff between schools comprised of LSATs in the 140s and 150s and those with scorers in the high 160s through high 170s, the difference is substantial and real. There, I said it. Bash away...

I'm a 1L at William Mitchell and I scored a 165, I know of at least 5 people who scored higher than me. We're all on full scholarships and I think graduating without debt is preferrable to having a degree from Michigan with 100k+ in debt, especially if you want to practice in MN.

But you have to admit you are an outlier at WM. The average for your school is a 155, the top quarter is a 158. You and the 5 others are therefore the exception, not the rule.

EDIT: Source - --LinkRemoved--

Not only are the six of them the outliers, they'll very likely be the summas (i.e., the only ones to get local biglaw). And the rest who want to do such work will be fkd.

[dru617]

But you have to admit you are an outlier at WM. The average for your school is a 155, the top quarter is a 158. You and the 5 others are therefore the exception, not the rule.

EDIT: Source - --LinkRemoved--

We're talking about a few points on a standardized test under timed conditions- an extremely stressful test no less. The difference between a 155 and a 167 is, like, 2-3 questions per section.

I agree that there is probably some difference between your typical student at the respective schools but I doubt it's substantial.

First, you are measuring Mitchell's median (155) against Michigan's and Northwestern's lower quartile (167); their medians are 169 and 170, respectively. Second, the number of questions between the two scores is of very little analytical weight. Far more informative are the percentiles for each score. A 155 puts you in the 64th; 169/170 put you at 97th percentile of all takers. Yes, I know it's a standardized test and that certain individuals will have bad test days, etc, but in the aggregate, this large a discrepancy in student LSAT scores does equate to a very meaningful difference in student body.

[paulinaporizkova]

It might be true that median students at t14s get treated "unfairly" in general in MPLs big law but they also get lots of opportunities in major markets that top 5% even at umn has no chance at. So I think it all evens out in the end, eh?

[minnbills]

But you have to admit you are an outlier at WM. The average for your school is a 155, the top quarter is a 158. You and the 5 others are therefore the exception, not the rule.

EDIT: Source - --LinkRemoved--

We're talking about a few points on a standardized test under timed conditions- an extremely stressful test no less. The difference between a 155 and a 167 is, like, 2-3 questions per section.

I agree that there is probably some difference between your typical student at the respective schools but I doubt it's substantial.

First, you are measuring Mitchell's median (155) against Michigan's and Northwestern's lower quartile (167); their medians are 169 and 170, respectively. Second, the number of questions between the two scores is of very little analytical weight. Far more informative are the percentiles for each score. A 155 puts you in the 64th; 169/170 put you at 97th percentile of all takers. Yes, I know it's a standardized test and that certain individuals will have bad test days, etc, but in the aggregate, this large a discrepancy in student LSAT scores does equate to a very meaningful difference in student body.

I was referring to the median at UMN bro. Who cares what the percentiles are if the test that determines them turns on just a few questions?

[dru617]

But you have to admit you are an outlier at WM. The average for your school is a 155, the top quarter is a 158. You and the 5 others are therefore the exception, not the rule.

EDIT: Source - --LinkRemoved--

We're talking about a few points on a standardized test under timed conditions- an extremely stressful test no less. The difference between a 155 and a 167 is, like, 2-3 questions per section.

I agree that there is probably some difference between your typical student at the respective schools but I doubt it's substantial.

First, you are measuring Mitchell's median (155) against Michigan's and Northwestern's lower quartile (167); their medians are 169 and 170, respectively. Second, the number of questions between the two scores is of very little analytical weight. Far more informative are the percentiles for each score. A 155 puts you in the 64th; 169/170 put you at 97th percentile of all takers. Yes, I know it's a standardized test and that certain individuals will have bad test days, etc, but in the aggregate, this large a discrepancy in student LSAT scores does equate to a very meaningful difference in student body.

I was referring to the median at UMN bro. Who cares what the percentiles are if the test that determines them turns on just a few questions?

Dude, but it's not just a few questions. A 155 LSAT = a raw score of around 66-69 out of around 100 (a "D" under most common grading schemes), and a 167 or 170 equates to a raw score in the mid to high 80s (a "B" or "B+") or low 90s ("A-") respectively. The disparity is undeniably significant.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Getting back on track, it is correct that the top Minnesota firms will not go very far below the top 5-10% at any Minnesota school and would rather look to non-MN schools to fill in the summer associate ranks. Most Minnesota firms, especially in this economy, haven't had to dip very low in a class to find summer associates. Unlike other markets, the top Minnesota firms can take the top of the class at UMN/UST/WM every year without much competition from the coastal firms. Now that the market is opening back up, there may be some more competition from out-of-state firms. I've heard stories of some pretty good coastal firms picking up top students from UMN and UST recently, firms that probably wouldn't have even looked these schools in years past. This places some more pressure on the Minnesota firms to dig deeper into the class at the local schools.

If you're at a T14 or one of the brand name law schools outside of the T14 (BC/BU/GW/UCLA/USC, etc.), you'll have a very good shot at a Minnesota firm, assuming you can display at least an inkling of a desire to work and live in the state. Minnesota firms like to have a diverse summer associate class, so getting a student or two from one of these non-Minneosta schools is always a plus for the firm and the summer associate program. However, there are very rarely students at the T-14 or one of those named non-T14 schools that actually want to practice in MN, and we can usually tell in the screening interview.

I also want to note that I think people are too focused on the largest two or three firms in Minneapolis. There are firms in the 25-150 attorney range in town that all hire students a little lower in the class. They are just as good to work for and pay comparable salaries/bonuses as the top firms in town. They also have had smaller summer classes in recent years, but with the market having picked back up, they'll likely be selecting a few more summers this cycle for next year. You'll still want to have decent grades to be competitive but if you aren't at the top of your class, you should really take some time to network at these firms.

[midwestlawstudent]

Getting back on track

. Thanks you!

MBL: any idea on CB to offer times or CB:offer ratios at MPLS firms?

[dnelson]

I also want to note that I think people are too focused on the largest two or three firms in Minneapolis. There are firms in the 25-150 attorney range in town that all hire students a little lower in the class.

Could you be a little more specific on what part of the class has a chance at these kinds of firms? Are we talking top fourth, top third, or top half? Do these firms usually dip below the top half?

[Gorki]

I also want to note that I think people are too focused on the largest two or three firms in Minneapolis. There are firms in the 25-150 attorney range in town that all hire students a little lower in the class.

Could you be a little more specific on what part of the class has a chance at these kinds of firms? Are we talking top fourth, top third, or top half? Do these firms usually dip below the top half?

MBL will be best to answer the Q, but having experience in MN, I know that a lot of the firms outside Dorsey, Faegre, Fredrikson, and Robins types only pick up 1-2 SAs. I can only assume this implies they will pick up whatever the bigger Twin Cities firms do not get in terms of top students.

[rickgrimes69]

Finally, and I know this will piss a lot of people off, but you have to understand that a below median performer at Michigan or Northwestern is probably equal in aptitude to a Mitchell/Hamline/Thomas Summa. LSAT may not be a perfect indicator for law school performance (much less lawyer performance), but when you're talking the diff between schools comprised of LSATs in the 140s and 150s and those with scorers in the high 160s through high 170s, the difference is substantial and real. There, I said it. Bash away...

Except that LSAT performance has exceedingly little to do with your potential aptitude as a lawyer or a law student.

Not only are the six of them the outliers, they'll very likely be the summas

You could not be more wrong about this. Attending a lower ranked school does not mean you'll perform any higher than you would at a higher ranked one.

[dru617]

Not only are the six of them the outliers, they'll very likely be the summas

You could not be more wrong about this. Attending a lower ranked school does not mean you'll perform any higher than you would at a higher ranked one.

So based on what you're saying, the (as I see it) inevitable conclusion is that virtually all U.S. legal employers employ a hiring methodology (dipping only into a limited percentage of students at low ranked schools and being willing to consider progressively larger percentages of classes (down to at or even below median at T14s, for example) as the schools climb in the rankings) that is not rationally tied to their interest in hiring the most capable candidates. The only other option I can think of is that they are universally such prestige seekers that they would willingly accept less capable candidates solely to be able to say they have attorneys from higher ranked schools. And I somehow don't think that quite makes sense...

Anywho, I really don't have a horse in this race. It's just an interesting discussion topic, I think. But I think we've pretty much exhausted it in this thread...

Question for MBL in furtherance of getting the thread back on track - Most Mpls biglaw firms have minimum billable requirements around 1750/1800. For an associate in his/her first few years (and thus aiming to go the extra mile to impress), roughly what kind of a workweek (in total hours worked - billable or not) are we looking at?

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Summer Associate classes at Minnesota offices are typically smaller than in the bigger markets. Dorsey and Faegre are typically around 20 associates, and the classes go down from there. Some years you get a few more and some years a few less, depending on the outlook over the following few years.

You can see the size of the summer classes and the number of offers given on http://www.nalpdirectory.com

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Bump to the extent anyone has any additional questions. I think we've covered most of the topics in this thread, but just in case.

[somewhatwayward]

OP, I have a question for you. I am a 3L going to a prestigious NYC firm next year. I have no ties to the midwest. I am curious about the opportunities to lateral into MSP after a few years. Would it be completely impossible without ties? Would it depend on what I did at my firm? I'm in the top third at CLS, HYP undergrad if that would matter for lateraling. I do not want to live in the NYC area forever; it is too expensive, and dealing with schooling for kids is a nightmare. I am not sold on MSP specifically, but I'd like your advice on how to position myself so I can make a move from NYC to a market like MSP. Thanks!

Not saying I don't believe you, but that experience is extremely atypical. I'm inclined to believe they got lucky, or (more likely) they knew someone high up in the firm. I've personally spoken to hiring partners at D&W, Frederickson, and Lindquist. None of them said they were willing to dip below top third for non-HYS T14 grads. Dorsey in particular recommended top 10%. I can see someone with serious ties warranting some wiggle room w/r/t GPA, but I don't believe for one second that below median grads are a common fixture in MN biglaw.

This statement reminds me of when CLS gives 1Ls a table of the firms coming to OCI and there is a requirements column where each firm can list what it expects, and you see that, like, Loewenstein Sandler says it will only take top 10% + LR, which you know cannot be true. Firms often say they have specific requirements and then their hiring does not comport with that. I actually just went to the Dorsey website for some anecdotal evidence, but you can't search by school, which is annoying. The T10 students were a mix of impressive academic credentials (eg, UChi top 10% + LR) and no academic credentials (eg, graduated UMich, nothing else). Interestingly I didn't see any non-T10 students, but I only looked at five profiles or so. Clearly, though, as someone else pointed out, they don't have a hard 10% cutoff.

I think the below median T14 students who are really SOL are the ones who have no ties to smaller markets. Firms in my hometown told me they liked to get students from the T10 to mix it up - they don't want a whole class of students from the state university even though it is a good school, comparable to UMinn. I specifically asked one person about grades coming from the T10, and she said they won't hire people with truly bottom of the barrel grades, which she defined as below a 3.0, but if you're above that, from the T10, and can convincingly explain why you want to be there, they will consider you.

[cts2012]

OP, I'm from the midwest and a 1L at one of the costal schools you have mentioned BU/BC/GW. I went to boarding school for high school in Minnesota and have other aspects of my resume that would fit with Minnesota, although not direct ties. Is this enough of a tie that it would be worthwhile to apply to the big/mid-law firms in Minneapolis?

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

You should really tailor your resume to show your ties to Minnesota. Draft a cover letter to explain that you grew up in Minnesota and are looking to return. That should be enough (along with a top 1/3 GPA) to get you an interview with the top firms in Minnesota. Most of our firms in Minn (mine included) like to pull from those schools and will go deeper into the class so that their summer associate classes are not filled with students from the U, Wisconsin, Iowa and U.St (which is typically the case).

You'll want to be really prepared on your interview to answer why you want to practice and live in Minnesota. Be genuine and you should do well. For now, focus on your exams. You can worry about recruiting after you have your 1L finals complete.

[minnbills]

You should really tailor your resume to show your ties to Minnesota. Draft a cover letter to explain that you grew up in Minnesota and are looking to return. That should be enough (along with a top 1/3 GPA) to get you an interview with the top firms in Minnesota. Most of our firms in Minn (mine included) like to pull from those schools and will go deeper into the class so that their summer associate classes are not filled with students from the U, Wisconsin, Iowa and U.St (which is typically the case).

You'll want to be really prepared on your interview to answer why you want to practice and live in Minnesota. Be genuine and you should do well. For now, focus on your exams. You can worry about recruiting after you have your 1L finals complete.

Why is it a concern not to have too many students from the local schools?

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Summer Associate classes are mostly made up of students from the local schools at the largest four or five firms. The top firms are able to bring in students from the T-14 and similar coastal schools. You'll notice at smaller firms that their summer associate classes are almost exclusively local.

If you don't go to a local school, you shouldn't worry that you won't have a chance at a large Minnesota firm. However, you should be prepared to answer questions relating to why you want to work and live in Minnesota.

[midwestlawstudent]

.

[sconnielaw13]

Not sure if this has been asked yet, but do Minnesota firm's ever hire 3L's for entry level positions? If so what type of numbers would a person need to have from Wisconsin? Thanks!