UVA Law Students Taking Questions Forum

[vanwinkle]

What are the reasons that make people still strike out at OCI and 3Ls with no jobs. I understand there are just not enough jobs to go around, but what separates the with-jobs and the jobless at Harvard? Still grades?

I'm not privy to every circumstance of everyone's life, but there are a few factors that seem to matter. Grades is certainly one, but not the only one. WE and in-LS internship experience seem to matter also. And, of course, legal networking matters a lot; I got a killer internship lined up this summer through my journal (and one of my journal's alumni), but I had to work for it.

I suspect part of the problem is failure to appreciate that it takes real effort, even here, to impress employers. People often come into law school with a fundamental misunderstanding about how legal hiring works and how much work they have to put into finding a job themselves. You're not guaranteed a job just because you're at a top law school, anymore, even here. Students learn this the hard way, and the hard way is "not getting anything at OCI".

[icouldbuyu]

What are the reasons that make people still strike out at OCI and 3Ls with no jobs. I understand there are just not enough jobs to go around, but what separates the with-jobs and the jobless at Harvard? Still grades?

I'm not privy to every circumstance of everyone's life, but there are a few factors that seem to matter. Grades is certainly one, but not the only one. WE and in-LS internship experience seem to matter also. And, of course, legal networking matters a lot; I got a killer internship lined up this summer through my journal (and one of my journal's alumni), but I had to work for it.

I suspect part of the problem is failure to appreciate that it takes real effort, even here, to impress employers. You're not guaranteed a job just because you're at a top law school, anymore, even here. Students learn this the hard way, and the hard way is "not getting anything at OCI".

A few pages back me and R6 argued that networking matters in getting a job, but current students made it seem like we were stupid 0Ls that don't know anything.

[r6_philly]

A few pages back me and R6 argued that networking matters in getting a job, but current students made it seem like we were stupid 0Ls that don't know anything.

I think it probably matters a bit more at Harvard though. I feel that you have pretty much as good of a chance getting a job as any, unless you slack through the whole period thinking a job will be handed to you. Maybe at mid T14 it's a bit different.

Love the tar! G6 ready.

[r6_philly]

What are the reasons that make people still strike out at OCI and 3Ls with no jobs. I understand there are just not enough jobs to go around, but what separates the with-jobs and the jobless at Harvard? Still grades?

I'm not privy to every circumstance of everyone's life, but there are a few factors that seem to matter. Grades is certainly one, but not the only one. WE and in-LS internship experience seem to matter also. And, of course, legal networking matters a lot; I got a killer internship lined up this summer through my journal (and one of my journal's alumni), but I had to work for it.

I suspect part of the problem is failure to appreciate that it takes real effort, even here, to impress employers. People often come into law school with a fundamental misunderstanding about how legal hiring works and how much work they have to put into finding a job themselves. You're not guaranteed a job just because you're at a top law school, anymore, even here. Students learn this the hard way, and the hard way is "not getting anything at OCI".

Dude you are going to be awesome!

I want to ask you about a comparison between H and UVA but it probably isn't the best place for it, so feel free to not answer.

[icouldbuyu]

A few pages back me and R6 argued that networking matters in getting a job, but current students made it seem like we were stupid 0Ls that don't know anything.

I think it probably matters a bit more at Harvard though. I feel that you have pretty much as good of a chance getting a job as any, unless you slack through the whole period thinking a job will be handed to you. Maybe at mid T14 it's a bit different.

Love the tar! G6 ready.

Thats how we do it!!! I was inspired by a recent speaker series with the CEO of my IB. He admitted that Gordon Gekko was his inspiration for working on Wall Street.

[RVP11]

#1 reason people strike out: bottom third of the class

#2 reason people strike out: they don't interview well

Grades and interviewing are basically the LSAT and GPA of law firm hiring. Everything else is pretty soft.

[r6_philly]

Thats how we do it!!! I was inspired by a recent speaker series with the CEO of my IB. He admitted that Gordon Gekko was his inspiration for working on Wall Street.

I have to admit Jerry McGuire is an inspiration Recently, Chris Gardner in Pursuit of Happiness. I dream big regardless of where I am at.

[icouldbuyu]

Thats how we do it!!! I was inspired by a recent speaker series with the CEO of my IB. He admitted that Gordon Gekko was his inspiration for working on Wall Street.

I have to admit Jerry McGuire is an inspiration Recently, Chris Gardner in Pursuit of Happiness. I dream big regardless of where I am at.

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!

[r6_philly]

#1 reason people strike out: bottom third of the class

#2 reason people strike out: they don't interview well

Grades and interviewing are basically the LSAT and GPA of law firm hiring. Everything else is pretty soft.

How do splitters do?

[vanwinkle]

A few pages back me and R6 argued that networking matters in getting a job, but current students made it seem like we were stupid 0Ls that don't know anything.

Actually, what R6 said was that it was "all networking and luck", and as someone who's benefited from networking more than anyone, I have to disagree with that. Networking matters a lot more in PI than it does in BigLaw, but even then all it did was get me an interview. Without the grades, prior related internship experience, etc., I wouldn't have gotten the internship anyway. I got all those things by putting in hard work and planning, not by "networking". Networking helps in some contexts, but it's far from sufficient, even in the best cases.

And networking matters almost 0% for OCI interviews. I had no prior personal connection with any of my interviewers there, and I still was able to kill it there. I know many people who can say the same thing. How much networking matters varies a lot depending on the context, and sometimes it's completely irrelevant. Sometimes networking helps a lot, but sometimes it won't matter at all.

[r6_philly]

A few pages back me and R6 argued that networking matters in getting a job, but current students made it seem like we were stupid 0Ls that don't know anything.

Actually, what R6 said was that it was "all networking and luck", and as someone who's benefited from networking more than anyone, I have to disagree with that. Networking matters a lot more in PI than it does in BigLaw, but even then all it did was get me an interview. Without the grades, prior related internship experience, etc., I wouldn't have gotten the internship anyway. I got all those things by putting in hard work and planning, not by "networking". Networking helps in some contexts, but it's far from sufficient, even in the best cases.

Well actually I didn't want to talk about grades because apparently according to TLS you can't control your grades. So I was talking as if grade is a constant, a pre-determined assumption, since 2L/3Ls generally say that you can't just work harder and get better grades. So why focus on the thing you can't control (in that context).

I am glad I got that cleared up. I never meant to imply that it's all networking.

[vanwinkle]

Well actually I didn't want to talk about grades because apparently according to TLS you can't control your grades. So I was talking as if grade is a constant, a pre-determined assumption, since 2L/3Ls generally say that you can't just work harder and get better grades. So why focus on the things you can't control.

I am glad I got that cleared up. I never meant to imply that it's all networking.

All things being otherwise equal, between two people with the same grades, the same journal and other extracurricular experience, and the same target market, and the same interviewing skills, then yes, networking will make a difference.

There are other things you can control besides grades, that will matter as much as/more than networking. Extracurriculars/internships/clinics matter a lot, especially if you want PI. You can't pre-determine your grades, but you can pre-determine your dedication to developing real-world legal experience early on. (This can also help you with networking by giving you real-world contacts, but that's a sometimes helpful in that way and sometimes not.) That kind of stuff helps at interviews, fills your resume with good things, and gives you training and skills that helps you impress at future internships later on.

You can also control your interviewing ability. Preparing for interviews matters a lot, interviewing well matters a lot. Practicing interviewing and any kind of public speaking helps IMO.

Those things really matter, and if you want things to work on as a 0L/1L, those are things you can do to help your chances of finding work, irregardless of your grades.

[omg]

The person who made the model and the shirt(s) is the same person from what I have heard. It is just one--admittedly unsatisfied--3L who is focusing all of this negative attention on our career services. I don't mean to deny that there are other similarly situated 3Ls, but I don't think that the fact that we have one particularly vocal unemployed 3L here says anything about UVA compared to peer schools.

You are incorrect sir.

Ah, apparently you are right. 2 separate people. My bad--I had been told wrong before.

[ThreeYears]

Thats how we do it!!! I was inspired by a recent speaker series with the CEO of my IB. He admitted that Gordon Gekko was his inspiration for working on Wall Street.

I have to admit Jerry McGuire is an inspiration Recently, Chris Gardner in Pursuit of Happiness. I dream big regardless of where I am at.

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!

Gekko looks like Ari Gold in your tar.

[icouldbuyu]

Thats how we do it!!! I was inspired by a recent speaker series with the CEO of my IB. He admitted that Gordon Gekko was his inspiration for working on Wall Street.

I have to admit Jerry McGuire is an inspiration Recently, Chris Gardner in Pursuit of Happiness. I dream big regardless of where I am at.

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!

Gekko looks like Ari Gold in your tar.

That's another one of my idols.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGTJSorTQvw

[ThreeYears]

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!

Gekko looks like Ari Gold in your tar.

That's another one of my idols.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGTJSorTQvw

I figured he might be he's from Michigan Law though.

[icouldbuyu]

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!

Gekko looks like Ari Gold in your tar.

That's another one of my idols.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGTJSorTQvw

I figured he might be he's from Michigan Law though.

That's actually one of the top selling points when I was considering Michigan Law.

[Cavalier]

i dont want to derail the thread but is there anyone who knows whether it's a good idea or bad idea to bid on the same journals for the 2nd round or just go for the easiest journals

The secondary journal you're on basically doesn't matter, so if you want to put a journal on your resume, you should probably try and maximize your prospects by going for the easiest one.

People think that grades are everything. They're not. While grades are the most important factor, location, interviewing ability, and work experience are all important too. In general, I think if someone in the top third is a decent interviewer and targets the right market (i.e. New York, and not DC), they don't have much to worry about.

so, median or below i should just abandon my dreams of NYC biglaw and go back to hometown market Minneapolis? (where I grew up/currently live)

(this is actually a q BTW)

Not at all; if you're median or below your main targets should by NYC and the secondary markets that you have ties to (in your case, Minneapolis). Summer class sizes in NYC are much larger than everywhere else, which is why NYC is less competitive.

[WVUCelticFan]

I know that softball is the gold standard at UVA, but are there ever any pick up games of soccer or (I know this one is a massive long shot) rugby around the law school?

[badwithpseudonyms]

I know that softball is the gold standard at UVA, but are there ever any pick up games of soccer or (I know this one is a massive long shot) rugby around the law school?

Yes and yes. There are pickup games of soccer almost weekly when the weather is good, and there are indoor and outdoor teams that play the undergrads in the intramural league. Rugby consists of guys from both the law school and Darden. They scrimmage the undergrads and I believe they're going to a tournament soon.

[R.R. Raskolnikov]

Put this in the UVA 2014 thread but meant to post it here:

If any current 2Ls or 3Ls could provide some insight on this it would be extremely helpful...

I was at ASW over the weekend and was very impressed with the presentations by the public sector and clerkships advisors. I want to practice in DC and I have a strong interest in clerking and pursuing federal government work. Are the experiences and connections that UVA boasts in the DC area that tangible that it provides a significant leg up on peer school competitors?

I know DC biglaw is extremely competitive regardless of where you go to school, but I'm wondering if UVA has unique advantages for clerking and the federal gov't (the public sector advisor literally said "UVA owns DOJ"). I just want to know if that is all talk or if it is born out in what people experience when they go through the hiring process.

Many thanks.

[Kohinoor]

Put this in the UVA 2014 thread but meant to post it here:

If any current 2Ls or 3Ls could provide some insight on this it would be extremely helpful...

I was at ASW over the weekend and was very impressed with the presentations by the public sector and clerkships advisors. I want to practice in DC and I have a strong interest in clerking and pursuing federal government work. Are the experiences and connections that UVA boasts in the DC area that tangible that it provides a significant leg up on peer school competitors?

I know DC biglaw is extremely competitive regardless of where you go to school, but I'm wondering if UVA has unique advantages for clerking and the federal gov't (the public sector advisor literally said "UVA owns DOJ"). I just want to know if that is all talk or if it is born out in what people experience when they go through the hiring process.

Many thanks.

I've heard from many lawyers with no allegiance to career services that UVa rolls deep when it comes to firms and gov in DC.

[BruceWayne]

Put this in the UVA 2014 thread but meant to post it here:

If any current 2Ls or 3Ls could provide some insight on this it would be extremely helpful...

I was at ASW over the weekend and was very impressed with the presentations by the public sector and clerkships advisors. I want to practice in DC and I have a strong interest in clerking and pursuing federal government work. Are the experiences and connections that UVA boasts in the DC area that tangible that it provides a significant leg up on peer school competitors?

I know DC biglaw is extremely competitive regardless of where you go to school, but I'm wondering if UVA has unique advantages for clerking and the federal gov't (the public sector advisor literally said "UVA owns DOJ"). I just want to know if that is all talk or if it is born out in what people experience when they go through the hiring process.

Many thanks.

If by "own" you mean those north of a 3.3 own DOJ then I'm sure that that's probably true.

[pjo]

Not trying to out anyone or anything but at the student info session during ASD one of the students mentioned about their significant other who is a 3L on law review. They mentioned how their SO is currently without a job because the firm they were planning on heading to was recently dissovled (Howrey). This really caught me by surprise and I don't mean to sound arrogant or anything but I was under the impression that those on LR at UVA bascially had their pick of firms, which leads me to wonder, why would someone with their pick of firms choose Howrey; considering they were clearly having a lot of trouble even as things began to improve at other firms. Or is my impression of career prospects for those on LR too generous?

Also, maybe someone could attest to the truth in this statement made by Jon Cannon during the Environmental Law session: (almost verbatim) "if you come here and commit to the environmental program (i.e. clinic, classes, etc.) I guarantee I'll find you a job as an environmental lawyer either in private practice, PI or government". --He seemed like a really cool guy and I think I meshed the best with his personality but that seemed like a pretty strong, and somewhat unrealistic guarantee. Was he being serious? FWIW, he does seem like he has awesome connections.

[plum]

maybe we are spoiled by law school admissions being such a numbers game, so that getting a 17X + 3.X whatever is almost mathematically guaranteed to get you into X school. whereas #s often seem necessary for legal hiring it's far from a gaurantee, and as vanwinkle pointed out, even HLS students are striking out and have to work for things. it's not like we can just show up, punch in our #s, and get a job with a receipt in hand. the pre-apocalypse stereotype of everyone in LS getting gordon gekko jobs probably contributed to this presumption of how things are supposed to work out.