UC Hastings Students Taking Questions Forum

[ksllaw]

I just don't know what to think. I believe that if you want to be a lawyer, not for the $$$, but to actually practice law, that Hastings isn't that bad a shot. If you're willing to make $40-60k and just go straight for income based repayment on your loans (because you got them through the gov't, right? RIGHT?), Hastings is pretty good, the students are nice, the profs are great, and so forth.

But yes, if you want to make $160k and that's the only reason you want to be an attorney...go somewhere else.

This might be off-topic here (if so, feel free to call me out/ignore me), but how does income based repayment work? E.g., if you have say $100K in law debt after graduation. What happens and what rates could you get down to in terms of repayment?

[timeandspace11]

Thanks for doing this. I just wanted to ask........

Does anybody live in Oakland and commute via BART to school?

Is it easy to obtain residency if you are an out of state student after your first year?

What are common positions and starting salaries of many UC Hastings grads?

Thanks again

[lisavj]

I commuted before transferring. Commented on it at length earlier in this thread.

[kapital98]

Is it easy to obtain residency if you are an out of state student after your first year?

Very easy. All you have to do is switch over your license, live in CA, and maybe change your voter registration. That was enough for me (originally from NY).

What are common positions and starting salaries of many UC Hastings grads?

I've heard Hastings grads have really excellent positions as office assistants at University of California: Hastings College of the Law. So if you want to work there it's a really great way to get your foot in the door

Seriously, It's on par with almost any other non-T14, T1 school. IF, IF, IF, you can get a job, expect to start out in the $60-80K range.

[Rahviveh]

Is it easy to obtain residency if you are an out of state student after your first year?

Very easy. All you have to do is switch over your license, live in CA, and maybe change your voter registration. That was enough for me (originally from NY).

What are common positions and starting salaries of many UC Hastings grads?

I've heard Hastings grads have really excellent positions as office assistants at University of California: Hastings College of the Law. So if you want to work there it's a really great way to get your foot in the door

Seriously, It's on par with almost any other non-T14, T1 school. IF, IF, IF, you can get a job, expect to start out in the $60-80K range.

Shouldn't you expect more like 40-60k?

[Rahviveh]

finding anything legal for 2L summer isn't the point (that's 1L summer); the worth of a 2L summer job is finding something that can actually lead to a job after graduation. from my sources, TONS of 3L's, some of whom are in the top third or better have nothing lined up at all. the employment numbers don't lie, either. they are startling. the numbers are so troubling it's probably why so many rising 2L's transferred.

Yeah, people don't care about landing SAs just as a 2L summer job; it's about how it leads to long term employment. I'm not worried about finding something for 2L summer. I am worried about getting a full time job.

I get what you guys are saying, but I think it's based on a misconception that's propagated by websites like TLS.

The fact of the matter is that in the height of the market (people who were 2L summers in 2007, reflected in the class of 2008 statistics), less than 24% of all law students ended up with jobs that paid $160k. The majority of law students have always gone on to work for not-big-law, and the whole "2L summer is for finding a job after graduation" really only reflects biglaw hiring.

If you look at the statistics for Hastings grads ( --LinkRemoved-- ), we see that a majority of the graduating class of 2011 (207/411) ended up working in full-time long-term JD required/preferred non-solo-practitioner jobs (219 Full Time Long Term - 7 non-JD-preferred - 5 solo practitioners = 207). So even if we take the most pessimistic view of employment statistics (we assume that part-time or short-term jobs are worthless, and that no one wants to be a solo practitioner), the "average" Hastings student still ends up in a job that makes productive use of their JD..

But a job that is unlikely to bring in enough income to pay off six figure debt. I think what you say makes sense if Hastings grads are getting huge scholarships. But according to LSAC, only 109/1248 students got more than half tuition. TLS only harps on biglaw because those are the jobs you need to pay off 150-200k in debt!

[kapital98]

What are common positions and starting salaries of many UC Hastings grads?

I've heard Hastings grads have really excellent positions as office assistants at University of California: Hastings College of the Law. So if you want to work there it's a really great way to get your foot in the door

Seriously, It's on par with almost any other non-T14, T1 school. IF, IF, IF, you can get a job, expect to start out in the $60-80K range.

Shouldn't you expect more like 40-60k?

I was mostly joking about my post. To be serious, look at these employment statistics: --LinkRemoved--

Of those employed the median is $74K. This number is not terribly inflated because the number of people it counts and the number of people with full-time legal employment roughly correlates. I'm specifically leaving out the unemployed from these calculations because they would drastically decrease the median salary without any theoretical justification. That's not a question of salary. That's a question of employment.

I'm rather surprised you posted in this forum. All of your previous posts are about T14 biglaw. If you want to talk specifically about Hastings' employment prospects there are better forums. Here's a recent one: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=183759

[Rahviveh]

What are common positions and starting salaries of many UC Hastings grads?

I've heard Hastings grads have really excellent positions as office assistants at University of California: Hastings College of the Law. So if you want to work there it's a really great way to get your foot in the door

Seriously, It's on par with almost any other non-T14, T1 school. IF, IF, IF, you can get a job, expect to start out in the $60-80K range.

Shouldn't you expect more like 40-60k?

I was mostly joking about my post. To be serious, look at these employment statistics: --LinkRemoved--

Of those employed the median is $74K. This number is not terribly inflated because the number of people it counts and the number of people with full-time legal employment roughly correlates. I'm specifically leaving out the unemployed from these calculations because they would drastically decrease the median salary without any theoretical justification. That's not a question of salary. That's a question of employment.

I'm rather surprised you posted in this forum. All of your previous posts are about T14 biglaw. If you want to talk specifically about Hastings' employment prospects there are better forums. Here's a recent one: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=183759

With less than 60% of employed Hastings grads reporting salary, that 74k median is still of questionable value

[Plastir]

UC Hastings produces top lawyers, the most California SuperLawyers and California Judges, more than any school anywhere.
Grads used to get $160,000 jobs, but the SF Bay Area legal market is the most saturated in the US. Good jobs are available for UCH grads elsewhere in CA and US. 10% of the 2010 grads took overseas jobs.

[ilovesf]

UC Hastings produces top lawyers, the most California SuperLawyers and California Judges, more than any school anywhere.
Grads used to get $160,000 jobs, but the SF Bay Area legal market is the most saturated in the US. Good jobs are available for UCH grads elsewhere in CA and US. 10% of the 2010 grads took overseas jobs.

Do you work for Hastings?

[Mick Haller]

UC Hastings produces top lawyers, the most California SuperLawyers and California Judges, more than any school anywhere.
Grads used to get $160,000 jobs, but the SF Bay Area legal market is the most saturated in the US. Good jobs are available for UCH grads elsewhere in CA and US. 10% of the 2010 grads took overseas jobs.

Super Lawyers and Cal judges are mostly 45+ years old. The legal job market has undergone dramatic changes in the last 5-6 years. Before 2007, Hastings placed 1 in 3 students at midlaw and biglaw. Today it places 1 in 10 (or less). Think about that.

Many (if not most) of those getting overseas jobs are licensed Asian attorneys who need US credentials for some reason. They most likely had jobs lined up before beginning at Hastings.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

UC Hastings produces top lawyers, the most California SuperLawyers and California Judges, more than any school anywhere.
Grads used to get $160,000 jobs, but the SF Bay Area legal market is the most saturated in the US. Good jobs are available for UCH grads elsewhere in CA and US. 10% of the 2010 grads took overseas jobs.

Super Lawyers and Cal judges are mostly 45+ years old. The legal job market has undergone dramatic changes in the last 5-6 years. Before 2007, Hastings placed 1 in 3 students at midlaw and biglaw. Today it places 1 in 10 (or less). Think about that.

Many (if not most) of those getting overseas jobs are licensed Asian attorneys who need US credentials for some reason. They most likely had jobs lined up before beginning at Hastings.

I think there is a real problem of perspective here, and both of you need to recognize that, to a certain degree, the other one might be correct. It all has to do with the size of Hastings in relation to other Bay Area schools.

Looking at the numbers from LawSchoolTransparency:
In 2010, Hastings placed 72 grads in full-time long-term positions with firms of 101+ lawyers. By way of comparison, in 2010, Stanford placed 91 grads in full-time long-term positions with firms of 101+ lawyers.

The problem is that the Hastings class of 2010 was 420 students, while the Stanford class was only 174. As a result, when you look at placement percentages, Hastings looks terrible.

But that doesn't mean that 72 students didn't actually get biglaw jobs, mostly in the Bay Area. The reality is that they did, they have kept those jobs, and have helped to created a favorable impression of Hastings throughout the Bay Area.

During OCI I interviewed with several Hastings grads, many at firms that were V20 or better, and many that graduated in 2009 or 2010. When I went on callbacks, there were even more Hastings grads, again, many that were very young. Indeed, I can't recall a CB lunch I went to that DIDN'T have a Hastings grad who was also a first year associate.

When I look at my own friends at Hastings, many of us (I can literally think of 10 off hand) have 2L SA positions lined up with firms that are V50 or better.

But then there's the flipside.

I can also think of just as many people who have nothing lined up right now. If I look at the graduating statistics, I'm forced to conclude that very many graduates will in fact end up unemployed all together. There is no ignoring this point, it's just a fact of life at Hastings, and it really REALLY sucks.

But it doesn't mean that the ONLY way you can get into biglaw is to have graduated pre-2007 or had something lined up before going to Hastings in the first place. The fact remains that a large number of Hastings students will actually get biglaw jobs. However, at a school of 400 per class, a large number is not the same thing as a large percentage.

This is why there's such a conflict about the way Hastings looks in the Bay Area legal community. On the one hand, all of the biglaw firms in the Bay Area have young Hastings grads that work there and have been very successful. But on the other hand, everyone also knows Hastings students whose JDs never paid off. We all need to recognize that both views are 100% correct.

[kapital98]

We all need to recognize that both views are 100% correct.

They both may be correct, and I respect what you are saying, but I think Mick Haller is being more genuine in his description of Hastings. Plastir is carefully choosing what to say.

[a male human]

UC Hastings produces top lawyers, the most California SuperLawyers and California Judges, more than any school anywhere.
Grads used to get $160,000 jobs, but the SF Bay Area legal market is the most saturated in the US. Good jobs are available for UCH grads elsewhere in CA and US. 10% of the 2010 grads took overseas jobs.

Super Lawyers and Cal judges are mostly 45+ years old. The legal job market has undergone dramatic changes in the last 5-6 years. Before 2007, Hastings placed 1 in 3 students at midlaw and biglaw. Today it places 1 in 10 (or less). Think about that.

Many (if not most) of those getting overseas jobs are licensed Asian attorneys who need US credentials for some reason. They most likely had jobs lined up before beginning at Hastings.

I think there is a real problem of perspective here, and both of you need to recognize that, to a certain degree, the other one might be correct. It all has to do with the size of Hastings in relation to other Bay Area schools.

Looking at the numbers from LawSchoolTransparency:
In 2010, Hastings placed 72 grads in full-time long-term positions with firms of 101+ lawyers. By way of comparison, in 2010, Stanford placed 91 grads in full-time long-term positions with firms of 101+ lawyers.

The problem is that the Hastings class of 2010 was 420 students, while the Stanford class was only 174. As a result, when you look at placement percentages, Hastings looks terrible.

But that doesn't mean that 72 students didn't actually get biglaw jobs, mostly in the Bay Area. The reality is that they did, they have kept those jobs, and have helped to created a favorable impression of Hastings throughout the Bay Area.

During OCI I interviewed with several Hastings grads, many at firms that were V20 or better, and many that graduated in 2009 or 2010. When I went on callbacks, there were even more Hastings grads, again, many that were very young. Indeed, I can't recall a CB lunch I went to that DIDN'T have a Hastings grad who was also a first year associate.

When I look at my own friends at Hastings, many of us (I can literally think of 10 off hand) have 2L SA positions lined up with firms that are V50 or better.

But then there's the flipside.

I can also think of just as many people who have nothing lined up right now. If I look at the graduating statistics, I'm forced to conclude that very many graduates will in fact end up unemployed all together. There is no ignoring this point, it's just a fact of life at Hastings, and it really REALLY sucks.

But it doesn't mean that the ONLY way you can get into biglaw is to have graduated pre-2007 or had something lined up before going to Hastings in the first place. The fact remains that a large number of Hastings students will actually get biglaw jobs. However, at a school of 400 per class, a large number is not the same thing as a large percentage.

This is why there's such a conflict about the way Hastings looks in the Bay Area legal community. On the one hand, all of the biglaw firms in the Bay Area have young Hastings grads that work there and have been very successful. But on the other hand, everyone also knows Hastings students whose JDs never paid off. We all need to recognize that both views are 100% correct.

Isn't it the percentage that matters, though? Everyone is ranked relative to one another, which determines your likelihood of getting a job (mostly for biglaw). If you're not top 15% it seems everyone is similarly situated where they have to go out and network, etc..

[Plastir]

1. San Francisco legal market to way over saturated; jobs are very scarce, no matter where you went to law school.
2. Nationwide starting salaries for ALL law school grads have dropped 35% since 2009. http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib
3. A high percentage of UCH grads work in government (US Ambassador Chris Stevens went to UCH),public interest law, etc, and make about 1/2 of those in the private sector. So you have to compare private firm starting salaries, not overall average salaries, if that is your concern.
4. UCH produces more California judges (and California SuperLawyers) any law school in the nation, by far. So if you want quality education, it is available at UCH.
5. Nationwide mean starting salary at private firms: $97,821. UCH: $105,761. By comparison, Harvard Law: $155,000.

[ilovesf]

1. San Francisco legal market to way over saturated; jobs are very scarce, no matter where you went to law school.
2. Nationwide starting salaries for ALL law school grads have dropped 35% since 2009. http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib
3. A high percentage of UCH grads work in government (US Ambassador Chris Stevens went to UCH),public interest law, etc, and make about 1/2 of those in the private sector. So you have to compare private firm starting salaries, not overall average salaries, if that is your concern.
4. UCH produces more California judges (and California SuperLawyers) any law school in the nation, by far. So if you want quality education, it is available at UCH.
5. Nationwide mean starting salary at private firms: $97,821. UCH: $105,761. By comparison, Harvard Law: $155,000.

Since you didn't answer me, I'm going to assume you do work for Hastings.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

Isn't it the percentage that matters, though? Everyone is ranked relative to one another, which determines your likelihood of getting a job (mostly for biglaw). If you're not top 15% it seems everyone is similarly situated where they have to go out and network, etc..

I go back on forth on this a lot.

On the one hand, you are definitely correct in that the percentage matters when looking at what you can reasonably expect when graduating from the school. There is no question that anyone who is considering Hastings should be aware that 74/411 graduates from the class of 2011 ended up unemployed. These graduates were not doing "shitlaw" but rather were straight up do nothing with their JDs. When you add in the solo practitioners, anyone who graduated in 2011 had a 1-in-5 chance of ending up fending for themselves. This is a HUGE problem, it should not be understated, and anyone considering Hastings should be aware.

However, and this is the part that I personally believe gets discounted, a degree from Hastings carries real weight in the Bay Area. Every single biglaw office has Hastings graduates working there, and most employers end up with a favorable view of Hastings as a result. This means that a degree from Hastings will get a Bay Area employer to look at you in situations where they would totally ignore degrees from other schools. Will they definitely hire you? Certainly not. But your resume also won't end up straight-to-trash. I believe that this often gets ignored, and I think it's wrong to do that.

[Mick Haller]

Anyone citing mean salaries for new lawyers should be immediately disregarded.

[kapital98]

Anyone citing mean salaries for new lawyers should be immediately disregarded.

Mean? Yes. Median? No.

Mean is an arbitrary number that is completely distorted by biglaw outliers. Median is a very useful statistic and actually downplays biglaw salaries.

[Mick Haller]

Anyone citing mean salaries for new lawyers should be immediately disregarded.

Mean? Yes. Median? No.

Mean is an arbitrary number that is completely distorted by biglaw outliers. Median is a very useful statistic and actually downplays biglaw salaries.

Funny thing is, this is obvious if Plastir had taken the time to carefully read the NALP data s/he linked to.

[hiima3L]

Isn't it the percentage that matters, though? Everyone is ranked relative to one another, which determines your likelihood of getting a job (mostly for biglaw). If you're not top 15% it seems everyone is similarly situated where they have to go out and network, etc..

However, and this is the part that I personally believe gets discounted, a degree from Hastings carries real weight in the Bay Area. Every single biglaw office has Hastings graduates working there, and most employers end up with a favorable view of Hastings as a result.

The same can be said about Berkeley, Stanford, and every Ivy League school.

[ilovesf]

Isn't it the percentage that matters, though? Everyone is ranked relative to one another, which determines your likelihood of getting a job (mostly for biglaw). If you're not top 15% it seems everyone is similarly situated where they have to go out and network, etc..

However, and this is the part that I personally believe gets discounted, a degree from Hastings carries real weight in the Bay Area. Every single biglaw office has Hastings graduates working there, and most employers end up with a favorable view of Hastings as a result.

The same can be said about Berkeley, Stanford, and every Ivy League school.

Doesn't matter if they have a favorable view of Hastings. They will still only take 1-2 people from our school and they would rather have someone from an ivy.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

The same can be said about Berkeley, Stanford, and every Ivy League school.

Doesn't matter if they have a favorable view of Hastings. They will still only take 1-2 people from our school and they would rather have someone from an ivy.

I don't think anyone here is saying "Choose Hastings over Berkeley or Stanford!"

But, if what you care about is working in the Bay Area, then Hastings is far from the worst choice you could make (compare with Pepperdine, Santa Clara, or God help you, Golden Gate).

I would also point out that there is a HUGE difference between saying "they still only take 1-2 people from our school" and saying "they would rather have someone from an ivy."

I happen to know someone who is a member of the incoming Bay Area class of a V20 firm. The class is only 4 people because the SF and SV offices were smaller to begin with. Of the 4, 1 is from Harvard, 2 are from Stanford, and 1 is from Hastings.

It's silly to think that the 4th slot HAD to be filled with a Hastings grad, and that the firm had no other choices. There is no question that the 4th slot could have been someone from basically any of the Ivy leagues (a V20 spot in SF is definitely desirable). But it wasn't, instead it was a Hastings grad, and the thing is, this isn't unusual when looking at class make up in the Bay Area.

This is where the fundamental breakdown is. The SF and SV offices tend to be smaller. Class sizes, especially the past several years, are going to be tiny, most are less than 6, sometimes for both offices (SF and SV) combined. There are only going to be 1-2 Hastings students taken, but this is still 1/4th to 1/3rd of the total class because the total class was only 4-6 to begin with. These are spots that could EASILY be filled with someone else, but the firm is CHOOSING a Hastings grad.

Now, when we see that 1 out of every 5 Hastings grads ends up unemployed, it's easy to forget this. But the problem is NOT that Bay Area firms don't want Hastings grads, it's that Hastings classes are WAY too big.

[DildaMan]

Santa Clara seems to be placing IP oriented students just as well, if not better, than Hastings does.

[Lasers]

Santa Clara seems to be placing IP oriented students just as well, if not better, than Hastings does.

i think IP oriented students are a different animal, though. they'll typically have better placement regardless of school.