The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc Forum

[Nova]

Thanks, MBL.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

According to this, there are several alternative means to qualify for the patent bar, two of which I will qualify for under (1 and 4). I'm just slightly worried that my lack of an actual science degree will be a turn off.

In regards to hiring new patent lawyers, do firms favor specialization or would a breadth of upper level science courses look better?

I can't really give too much advice on patent bar or IP specializations. My understanding is that you'll want a hard science degree to go into IP, although I don't believe it is necessary. You're best bet is to do some informational interviews with some IP attorneys in town.

Second, unless i'm looking at things incorrectly, according to this cost of living calculator, $110,000/yr starting salary in Minneapolis is worth more than $160,000/yr in Manhattan ($177,450). Does this seem to hold true at all?

Minneapolis is certainly not more expensive than Manhattan. However it is pretty much on par with Chicago if you want to live in a decent neighborhood.

Keep in mind that you have to be comfortable with compression in MN. You're salary at one of the top law firms in MN after a few years will be in the 115k-125k range (typically salaries increase around 1.5k a year for associates), while your counterparts in larger markets will be making over 200k a year with larger bonuses. Also, you're student loans will not decrease merely because you chose to live in MN. This is part of the reason why I suggest people keep their debt low hen wanting to work in MN. I've seen far too many associates move to Minneapolis and realize very quickly how much of a paycut they took and try to lateral back out to a coastal firm, which is very hard to do. Just make sure you're comfortable with the lower pay structure and you'll be fine. I wouldn't rely too much on cost-calculators.

[MNbound]

Minneapolis is certainly not more expensive than Manhattan. However it is pretty much on par with Chicago if you want to live in a decent neighborhood.

What? Where are you living Downtown? edina? I live in one of the nicest neighborhoods (summit hill) and it is way cheaper than Chicago.

[Prairie]

I have limited, but existing, ties to MN. What's the best way to demonstrate that I really want to be there to practice? (I really do). Besides just saying that, I'm not really sure how to get it across.

The first step is to make sure it is clear that you have ties to Minnesota on your resume. Otherwise, the firms will never know (especially if you're going through OCI). Once you get the interview, just be ready for the "Why Minnesota" question.

I've read through all of the posts and I have not seen where my specific question was addressed, and it relates to the red text above...

I go to a Midwest T14, but have never lived in MSP, but have visited, etc... I like the area and my wife was born in/raised there, though she went out of state for college and hasn't been back since she started college. Obviously, I can't put this on my resume, but would a solid cover letter outlining the fact that my wife is from MSP and we would like to settle down there be enough to grab the attention of any firms, specifically those that do not interview on-campus?

I think you are wrong on this point. PM me if you wish to discuss.

[midwestlawstudent]

Any idea of Callback --> offer turnaround time for MPS firms? What about CB to Offer ratios?

[dnelson]

I see on Law School Transparency that UMN has a full-time, legal rate of 59.4%. Only 4.2% of grads are doing semi-temporary judicial clerkship gigs. So here's a big mismatch I don't quite understand: everyone here says that if you're not in the top 30% of your class at UMN, you're pretty much screwed, since that's where MSP's "big law" tends to stop extending interviews.

But what about the next 30% that are still getting full-time, bar-passage-required jobs? What kinds of jobs are those? I assume they're harder to get and rely more on networking, instead of the OCI. Are the government? Doc review?

But still, I definitely don't see where the idea that you're screwed if you're not in the top 1/5, 1/4, or even 1/3 is coming from. Could someone enlighten me?

[Gorki]

I see on Law School Transparency that UMN has a full-time, legal rate of 59.4%. Only 4.2% of grads are doing semi-temporary judicial clerkship gigs. So here's a big mismatch I don't quite understand: everyone here says that if you're not in the top 30% of your class at UMN, you're pretty much screwed, since that's where MSP's "big law" tends to stop extending interviews.

But what about the next 30% that are still getting full-time, bar-passage-required jobs? What kinds of jobs are those? I assume they're harder to get and rely more on networking, instead of the OCI. Are the government? Doc review?

But still, I definitely don't see where the idea that you're screwed if you're not in the top 1/5, 1/4, or even 1/3 is coming from. Could someone enlighten me?

UMN places really well in the many suburban practices in the Twin Cities. They also do really well in Duluth, St. Cloud, Rochester, etc.. Basically, any practice in one of the non-Metro cities is heavily populated with UMN attorneys who like to hire from UMN. The only problem is that many of the top 10-25% students at the other MN schools are relegated to the rural firms, and thus a median at UMN might run into troubles versus, say top 15-25% + LR at one of the other three schools.

Not 100% sure how many go, but UMN also sends people to Cali and Chicago.

[rickgrimes69]

I see on Law School Transparency that UMN has a full-time, legal rate of 59.4%. Only 4.2% of grads are doing semi-temporary judicial clerkship gigs. So here's a big mismatch I don't quite understand: everyone here says that if you're not in the top 30% of your class at UMN, you're pretty much screwed, since that's where MSP's "big law" tends to stop extending interviews.

If you're set on MN biglaw, you need to be top 15%, not top 30%. I've spoken with hiring partners at firms in the area who informed me that you should ideally be in the top 5-10% to have a fighting chance, though there might be some wiggle room if you have significant ties to the area. None of them said they would dip below top third for non-HYS T14, much less UMN.

[Gorki]

I see on Law School Transparency that UMN has a full-time, legal rate of 59.4%. Only 4.2% of grads are doing semi-temporary judicial clerkship gigs. So here's a big mismatch I don't quite understand: everyone here says that if you're not in the top 30% of your class at UMN, you're pretty much screwed, since that's where MSP's "big law" tends to stop extending interviews.

If you're set on MN biglaw, you need to be top 15%, not top 30%. I've spoken with hiring partners at firms in the area who informed me that you should ideally be in the top 5-10% to have a fighting chance, though there might be some wiggle room if you have significant ties to the area. None of them said they would dip below top third for non-HYS T14, much less UMN.

This. I know people talk about Southern biglaw firms drawing big from regional schools (even TTTs), but Minnesota is definitely not like this. They will give a ton of screeners at the MN schools, offer quite a few CBs, but the general tone from students at the MN schools is that they got a really cold reception (unless they were within top quartile at UMN or top 10-15 student at the 3 other schools).

That said, there are a lot of smaller practices in the Cities and Minnesota at large. But the trick is most of these places only view grades/LR as a ticket to the interview, in the interview they screen out the people who do not have "the right stuff" to draw business to the firm.

EDIT: Also, the smaller practices do not pay anywhere near market and if paying sticker at any school, it may be a really tight position.

[dnelson]

I think I understand what both of you are saying. The top half (maybe even including top 60%) at Minnesota should have a chance at some legal job, at least, but if you're set on big law, then top 15% is a must.

I'm not set on big law at all. I'll only go to Minnesota if I have a full tuition scholarship or something really close to one. So I'm trying to find out more about the next section of grads, maybe those who rank between 20% and 60%. I guess something else I'm trying to pinpoint here is the line below which you're in danger at UMN. I think most people here would agree that that line is somewhere around 50%. 'Sound right?

[minnbills]

If you're set on MN biglaw, you need to be top 15%, not top 30%.

How do they get around the quartile system?

[minnbills]

The top half (maybe even including top 60%) at Minnesota should have a chance at some legal job

Where are you getting this?

[dnelson]

The top half (maybe even including top 60%) at Minnesota should have a chance at some legal job

Where are you getting this?

Law School Transparency, UMN class of 2011 stats, legal (bar passage required), full-time employment rate, which includes federal clerkships (although they only constitute 4.2% of the total, so are not too significant).

--LinkRemoved--

[minnbills]

The top half (maybe even including top 60%) at Minnesota should have a chance at some legal job

Where are you getting this?

Law School Transparency, UMN class of 2011 stats, legal (bar passage required), full-time employment rate, which includes federal clerkships (although they only constitute 4.2% of the total, so are not too significant).

--LinkRemoved--

Well I was actually referring to the idea that the top 60% get the jobs, but I'll address the stats as well.

Once you get outside of "prestigious" jobs like biglaw and fed/high state clerkships, grades become less important. They still factor, obviously, but much legal hiring is done by referral or networking. At that point there are other factors like personality, networking, specialty, and what your expectations are that become important.

Just from visiting law schools in the area I met a few people who I could tell right away would have a hard time finding jobs. Like the young woman who accosted the receptionist at William Mitchell. Who wants to work with a person like that? Or another person who couldn't hold a conversation. Literally, couldn't.

My point is that you shouldn't think people in the bottom 40 are screwed out of a legal job, as there are people from everyquartile who are getting jobs- and aren't.

Regarding the numbers, whenever LST is confronted with doubt it paints the numbers in the worst light. While this is appropriate, it can also result in a harsher picture.

For example, LST counts full time degree seeking students as unemployed. There were 9 FT degree seekers in 2011. I don't think LST's conclusion is appropriate in every case. There are plenty of students here who want MBAs from Carlson or degrees from Humphrey, maybe even IP people pursuing M.A's over on the East Bank. It's not like every student who is in school past law school is doing it because they're unemployed.

Another thing to consider is that recent grads will sometimes clerk with law firms post graduation, which may not be a great outcome. I don't know if that's an idiosyncrasy of this market, but I've encountered a few partners with firms here in MPLS who have actually recommended that path, and who presume that finding a full time, permanent job with a law firm (outside biglaw) is exceptional. I don't know how prevalent this is, though.

You also have a small chunk of people who fail to pass the bar, and other circumstances that negatively affect stats. You're dealing with a relatively small group of people (261 for 2011) and when you start to add these things off it softens the blow of these stats, IMO.

Don't get me wrong, the situation isn't "great" let alone "good," but I don't think it's as dire as 42% are screwed out of employment.

[paulinaporizkova]

I wish I could post anon in here

[Nova]

I wish I could post anon in here

Please share anyway

[dru617]

I see on Law School Transparency that UMN has a full-time, legal rate of 59.4%. Only 4.2% of grads are doing semi-temporary judicial clerkship gigs. So here's a big mismatch I don't quite understand: everyone here says that if you're not in the top 30% of your class at UMN, you're pretty much screwed, since that's where MSP's "big law" tends to stop extending interviews.

If you're set on MN biglaw, you need to be top 15%, not top 30%. I've spoken with hiring partners at firms in the area who informed me that you should ideally be in the top 5-10% to have a fighting chance, though there might be some wiggle room if you have significant ties to the area. None of them said they would dip below top third for non-HYS T14, much less UMN.

This last sentence isn't entirely accurate. I can name three individuals off the top of my head who landed slots in three of the biggest firms in town with median or below median grades from low t14 over the past couple of years.

[paulinaporizkova]

I see on Law School Transparency that UMN has a full-time, legal rate of 59.4%. Only 4.2% of grads are doing semi-temporary judicial clerkship gigs. So here's a big mismatch I don't quite understand: everyone here says that if you're not in the top 30% of your class at UMN, you're pretty much screwed, since that's where MSP's "big law" tends to stop extending interviews.

If you're set on MN biglaw, you need to be top 15%, not top 30%. I've spoken with hiring partners at firms in the area who informed me that you should ideally be in the top 5-10% to have a fighting chance, though there might be some wiggle room if you have significant ties to the area. None of them said they would dip below top third for non-HYS T14, much less UMN.

This last sentence isn't entirely accurate. I can name three individuals off the top of my head who landed slots in three of the biggest firms in town with median or below median grades from low t14 over the past couple of years.

+1. That statement is not accurate.

[rickgrimes69]

I see on Law School Transparency that UMN has a full-time, legal rate of 59.4%. Only 4.2% of grads are doing semi-temporary judicial clerkship gigs. So here's a big mismatch I don't quite understand: everyone here says that if you're not in the top 30% of your class at UMN, you're pretty much screwed, since that's where MSP's "big law" tends to stop extending interviews.

If you're set on MN biglaw, you need to be top 15%, not top 30%. I've spoken with hiring partners at firms in the area who informed me that you should ideally be in the top 5-10% to have a fighting chance, though there might be some wiggle room if you have significant ties to the area. None of them said they would dip below top third for non-HYS T14, much less UMN.

This last sentence isn't entirely accurate. I can name three individuals off the top of my head who landed slots in three of the biggest firms in town with median or below median grades from low t14 over the past couple of years.

Not saying I don't believe you, but that experience is extremely atypical. I'm inclined to believe they got lucky, or (more likely) they knew someone high up in the firm. I've personally spoken to hiring partners at D&W, Frederickson, and Lindquist. None of them said they were willing to dip below top third for non-HYS T14 grads. Dorsey in particular recommended top 10%. I can see someone with serious ties warranting some wiggle room w/r/t GPA, but I don't believe for one second that below median grads are a common fixture in MN biglaw.

[Pathika]

I see on Law School Transparency that UMN has a full-time, legal rate of 59.4%. Only 4.2% of grads are doing semi-temporary judicial clerkship gigs. So here's a big mismatch I don't quite understand: everyone here says that if you're not in the top 30% of your class at UMN, you're pretty much screwed, since that's where MSP's "big law" tends to stop extending interviews.

If you're set on MN biglaw, you need to be top 15%, not top 30%. I've spoken with hiring partners at firms in the area who informed me that you should ideally be in the top 5-10% to have a fighting chance, though there might be some wiggle room if you have significant ties to the area. None of them said they would dip below top third for non-HYS T14, much less UMN.

This last sentence isn't entirely accurate. I can name three individuals off the top of my head who landed slots in three of the biggest firms in town with median or below median grades from low t14 over the past couple of years.

Not saying I don't believe you, but that experience is extremely atypical. I'm inclined to believe they got lucky, or (more likely) they knew someone high up in the firm. I've personally spoken to hiring partners at D&W, Frederickson, and Lindquist. None of them said they were willing to dip below top third for non-HYS T14 grads. Dorsey in particular recommended top 10%. I can see someone with serious ties warranting some wiggle room w/r/t GPA, but I don't believe for one second that below median grads are a common fixture in MN biglaw.

I tried to look on Dorsey's website, but it is horrible with regard to trying to search for an attorney by law school, but Frederikson has 7 Michigan grads hired the last few years, only one of which had a GPA high enough to be in the top 15%. Before you ask, I know this based on the honors (or lack there of) reported on their bios. That means at least (who knows who has left or been fired since 2009) 6 Michigan grads were hired that were below the top 15%, and some close to, or below, median.

[dru617]

I see on Law School Transparency that UMN has a full-time, legal rate of 59.4%. Only 4.2% of grads are doing semi-temporary judicial clerkship gigs. So here's a big mismatch I don't quite understand: everyone here says that if you're not in the top 30% of your class at UMN, you're pretty much screwed, since that's where MSP's "big law" tends to stop extending interviews.

If you're set on MN biglaw, you need to be top 15%, not top 30%. I've spoken with hiring partners at firms in the area who informed me that you should ideally be in the top 5-10% to have a fighting chance, though there might be some wiggle room if you have significant ties to the area. None of them said they would dip below top third for non-HYS T14, much less UMN.

This last sentence isn't entirely accurate. I can name three individuals off the top of my head who landed slots in three of the biggest firms in town with median or below median grades from low t14 over the past couple of years.

Not saying I don't believe you, but that experience is extremely atypical. I'm inclined to believe they got lucky, or (more likely) they knew someone high up in the firm. I've personally spoken to hiring partners at D&W, Frederickson, and Lindquist. None of them said they were willing to dip below top third for non-HYS T14 grads. Dorsey in particular recommended top 10%. I can see someone with serious ties warranting some wiggle room w/r/t GPA, but I don't believe for one second that below median grads are a common fixture in MN biglaw.

Well, first, two of the three people I referred to took jobs in two of the three firms you just cited. And I know for a fact that none of them had any inside track within their firms and further that their local ties were all attenuated at best.

[dru617]

I see on Law School Transparency that UMN has a full-time, legal rate of 59.4%. Only 4.2% of grads are doing semi-temporary judicial clerkship gigs. So here's a big mismatch I don't quite understand: everyone here says that if you're not in the top 30% of your class at UMN, you're pretty much screwed, since that's where MSP's "big law" tends to stop extending interviews.

If you're set on MN biglaw, you need to be top 15%, not top 30%. I've spoken with hiring partners at firms in the area who informed me that you should ideally be in the top 5-10% to have a fighting chance, though there might be some wiggle room if you have significant ties to the area. None of them said they would dip below top third for non-HYS T14, much less UMN.

This last sentence isn't entirely accurate. I can name three individuals off the top of my head who landed slots in three of the biggest firms in town with median or below median grades from low t14 over the past couple of years.

Not saying I don't believe you, but that experience is extremely atypical. I'm inclined to believe they got lucky, or (more likely) they knew someone high up in the firm. I've personally spoken to hiring partners at D&W, Frederickson, and Lindquist. None of them said they were willing to dip below top third for non-HYS T14 grads. Dorsey in particular recommended top 10%. I can see someone with serious ties warranting some wiggle room w/r/t GPA, but I don't believe for one second that below median grads are a common fixture in MN biglaw.

Oh, and Dorsey in particular telling you they don't dip below top 10% at non HYS T14 is just a complete flat out lie.

[dru617]

I see on Law School Transparency that UMN has a full-time, legal rate of 59.4%. Only 4.2% of grads are doing semi-temporary judicial clerkship gigs. So here's a big mismatch I don't quite understand: everyone here says that if you're not in the top 30% of your class at UMN, you're pretty much screwed, since that's where MSP's "big law" tends to stop extending interviews.

If you're set on MN biglaw, you need to be top 15%, not top 30%. I've spoken with hiring partners at firms in the area who informed me that you should ideally be in the top 5-10% to have a fighting chance, though there might be some wiggle room if you have significant ties to the area. None of them said they would dip below top third for non-HYS T14, much less UMN.

This last sentence isn't entirely accurate. I can name three individuals off the top of my head who landed slots in three of the biggest firms in town with median or below median grades from low t14 over the past couple of years.

Not saying I don't believe you, but that experience is extremely atypical. I'm inclined to believe they got lucky, or (more likely) they knew someone high up in the firm. I've personally spoken to hiring partners at D&W, Frederickson, and Lindquist. None of them said they were willing to dip below top third for non-HYS T14 grads. Dorsey in particular recommended top 10%. I can see someone with serious ties warranting some wiggle room w/r/t GPA, but I don't believe for one second that below median grads are a common fixture in MN biglaw.

Finally, and I know this will piss a lot of people off, but you have to understand that a below median performer at Michigan or Northwestern is probably equal in aptitude to a Mitchell/Hamline/Thomas Summa. LSAT may not be a perfect indicator for law school performance (much less lawyer performance), but when you're talking the diff between schools comprised of LSATs in the 140s and 150s and those with scorers in the high 160s through high 170s, the difference is substantial and real. There, I said it. Bash away...

[Pathika]

Finally, and I know this will piss a lot of people off, but you have to understand that a below median performer at Michigan or Northwestern is probably equal in aptitude to a Mitchell/Hamline/Thomas Summa. LSAT may not be a perfect indicator for law school performance (much less lawyer performance), but when you're talking the diff between schools comprised of LSATs in the 140s and 150s and those with scorers in the high 160s through high 170s, the difference is substantial and real. There, I said it. Bash away...

+1

[dnelson]

You're saying that while the schools are substantially different, the aptitude of the particular students you mentioned are quite similar, right? What implications does this have for potential hiring and in relation to the Minnesota legal market?