So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate? Forum

[Tls2016]

This thread is tempering those expectations 0Ls have about biglaw being the greener grass. You probably realize by now that big law is up or out, and odds are high that you will be out if you don't leave of your own accord. Lawyers live in fear of losing their jobs too. That stress may not go away.
Maybe lawyers don't understand the stress of being a journalist.That isn't relevant now. What is relevant is whether 0Ls taking on massive debt to head into biglaw should understand the job and career path and look beyond the salary. Many lawyers who start out in biglaw make the most they will ever make per year at the beginning of their career.
You have solid research skills. You should utilize them to gain an understanding of law.

There was a post here about managing clients as they get to know you over time. I became close friends with two of the bankers who were my clients. They always left the calls to me until the last thing of their day because they knew I would be working and that I would get stuff son overnight for when they were in the next day.
Their view is that they pay so much for the lawyers that they call when it is best for them. The lawyers job is to get the clients work done. It isn't the clients job to work on the layers schedule. Being friends with them socially didn't alter that business balance.

I feel like this is once again taking what I said out of context. Somebody in this thread listed journalism among a list of paths that might have been better than going into the law. I was just noting that journalism isn't necessarily any better. If your point is that law is just as shitty as journalism, then you're making the exact same point I did in reverse. I mean, if you're saying that law has all the same drawbacks as journalism except you're paid better, that's not exactly dissuading me from making the career change. And I'm not interested in Big Law anyway, so it's not particularly relevant to my personal situation. I certainly didn't mean to shift the focus of this thread to me in any way.

As for my research skills, I think I'm going into law school with eyes wide open about the pros and cons of that choice.

I'm not at all saying that law has all the drawbacks of journalism. Law has its own drawbacks. One drawback they both share is lack of job security.

Glad you have done all your research already. I thought you said something about not knowing how unhappy lawyers are, but I'm posting from my phone and I can't find it fast.

[WinterComing]

I'm not at all saying that law has all the drawbacks of journalism. Law has its own drawbacks. One drawback they both share is lack of job security.

Glad you have done all your research already. I thought you said something about not knowing how unhappy lawyers are, but I'm posting from my phone and I can't find it fast.

I just meant that because I am not yet a lawyer, I don't have first-hand knowledge of how much being a lawyer sucks. You may have noticed that people around TLS don't like it when 0Ls like myself act as if they know what they're talking about. I was just trying to head off a wrist-slapping.

[Tls2016]

I'm not at all saying that law has all the drawbacks of journalism. Law has its own drawbacks. One drawback they both share is lack of job security.

Glad you have done all your research already. I thought you said something about not knowing how unhappy lawyers are, but I'm posting from my phone and I can't find it fast.

I just meant that because I am not yet a lawyer, I don't have first-hand knowledge of how much being a lawyer sucks. You may have noticed that people around TLS don't like it when 0Ls like myself act as if they know what they're talking about. I was just trying to head off a wrist-slapping.

Ah ok.
Good luck!

[SowhatsNU]

Wonder how long this thread keeps going before the biglaw partners come on here telling us its not really that bad

(190K anyone?)

[Cynic]

I've been getting advice via PMs too, but seriously, which industries will reward you for working hard and doing your job well rather than just arbitrarily screwing you over at some point like you're some sub-human?

Banking, law, journalism, academia... It's like they're all just dead ends unless you have lottery-level luck.

[Rahviveh]

I've been getting advice via PMs too, but seriously, which industries will reward you for working hard and doing your job well rather than just arbitrarily screwing you over at some point like you're some sub-human?

Banking, law, journalism, academia... It's like they're all just dead ends unless you have lottery-level luck.

Janitors make six figures in NYC

http://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/mo ... -1.9464383

Basically any job where you can screw over the tax payer

[donde]

I've been getting advice via PMs too, but seriously, which industries will reward you for working hard and doing your job well rather than just arbitrarily screwing you over at some point like you're some sub-human?

Banking, law, journalism, academia... It's like they're all just dead ends unless you have lottery-level luck.

Out of college: Banking/Consulting are not that bad if you come in as an analyst and treat it like a 2-year stint with laser-focus on developing hard analytical skills and exit ops. Otherwise, nursing and of course tech. Including enterprise sales/marketing for tech if you don't have the brain for programming (though if you can handle legal drafting, you're probably fine). I have a couple of 20-something year old friends who cleared 400K+ in total comp last year working for growing mid-sized SAAS startups in the bay area (oh, and the job is fun if you like people/going out). Biotech is also a rewarding, intellectual and profitable industry for the more risk-averse - they treat their people well, value experience and many people have long, satisfying corporate careers with less of the cyclical nature of silicon valley. I serve a lot of clients in this space and they are great to work with - my job would be great if I enjoyed being a lawyer.

In the long run: Developing skills so you can pursue some form of entrepreneurship/self-employment.

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[cattleprod]

I read through the entire thread and I still don't understand why you don't just quit.

and do what? fake SS disability?

I would quit for any non-law job that had any room for advancement. I'm willing to take an 80+% paycut. Nobody will even screen you.

I was you but with only 3 years. Hated the entire legal industry. Got exited during the recession.

Got out and learned database programming. This was 7 years ago. I was making $100,000+ very soon thereafter. Now I am at $170,000+, bonus, stock grants, 4 weeks paid vacation, etc. Total compensation is getting over $200,000 annually now and just grows every year.

Tech work is very much about high quality of life. 9 am to 4:30 pm is my typical day.

There are options outside of law and the business world. Tech is the great way to $100,000+ without an advanced degree. Heck, your UG doesn't even need to be tech related.

There are plenty of opportunities for advancement of you want to go management. However the managers seem far more vulnerable to layoffs than the tech experts. My current employer just did a tech re-org. Wiped out a layer of managers, directors and a few VPs. Zero programmers fired.

My phone and email are flooded with offers trying to lure me away.

Anyone considering law should definitely redirect elsewhere. I wish I had done Computer Science from the start. That is where all of the job demand and growth is. I am now in my early 40s. I used to worry about outsourcing and age discrimination. I don't any longer. The demand for database experts is just huge and growing.

Programming apps or databases requires similar skills as law. Attention to detail and creative problem solving is important. But this stuff is easy if you are smart. But most people are too intimidated to even get started. That is why there is so much demand for those that have figured it out.

which languages did you learn? SQL?

I started with T-SQL, the Microsoft version of the database language. Since then I have added Powershell, C# and Python.
But the vast majority of my work is in T-SQL, which is easy.

Database experts are probably one of the highest demand areas of tech these days.

People that can design and manipulate large amounts of data for the purposes of business intelligence ... write your own ticket.
You will be employed for many years to come.

Find a company that is public and you will likely qualify for executive level stock packages.
I am not in management, but the salary, bonus and stock package is at the same level as Director level manager positions.

I have been hesitant to even consider management because they all seem to be exited out in their early 50s, whereas I am seeing plenty of greybeards working the tech expert side until retirement age.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

we should all gun for biglaw lit. corp sounds horrible.

[mvp99]

my brother is making 800k as a surgeon... ya'll should just do surgery

[BernieTrump]

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[in house lawyer]

I was a corporate associate at a V5 for several years before going in house. OP, your description of the misery of corporate biglaw is understated, if anything. But you're only trapped in your job in your head. You're young and rich. What's the problem? Go do something that makes you happy. Life is too short to waste in biglaw hell.

Maybe I don't get it because I don't tie my identity to my job - I went into biglaw for the money. It seemed like the fastest way to turn good grades into money. When I made enough, I got out. It was an awful experience, but now I'm free and have a mountain of savings. It's awesome.

[BernieTrump]

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[in house lawyer]

I was a corporate associate at a V5 for several years before going in house. OP, your description of the misery of corporate biglaw is understated, if anything. But you're only trapped in your job in your head. You're young and rich. What's the problem? Go do something that makes you happy. Life is too short to waste in biglaw hell.

Maybe I don't get it because I don't tie my identity to my job - I went into biglaw for the money. It seemed like the fastest way to turn good grades into money. When I made enough, I got out. It was an awful experience, but now I'm free and have a mountain of savings. It's awesome.

The idea of doing the same thing in house does not appeal to me. I absolutely hate law, as does almost everyone doing this for more than 2-4 years. I've tried very hard to find something outside the law. It has not happened for me, at least without taking the Starbucks job. It hasn't come to that yet, but it may some day.

I wasn't saying you should go in house, although that might be a path out of law. I know some attorneys who moved into non-law roles in companies, but maybe that's more common in SF/SV where I am.

I've been practicing a lot longer than 4 years and I don't hate it. I don't think I'll be doing it much longer, but I don't hate it.

My point is you have all the tools you need to build a happy life. If you still can't figure out how to be happy, that's on you. It's not law's fault.

[Rahviveh]

I've been getting advice via PMs too, but seriously, which industries will reward you for working hard and doing your job well rather than just arbitrarily screwing you over at some point like you're some sub-human?

Banking, law, journalism, academia... It's like they're all just dead ends unless you have lottery-level luck.

Janitors make six figures in NYC

http://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/mo ... -1.9464383

Basically any job where you can screw over the tax payer

This also deserves a mention. With huge NY+NYC+federal taxes+debt service+high healthcare costs, at least at my firm+putting money into 401k+NYC rent+20k per year marriage tax penalty, your discretionary income is much smaller than law students think. Jobs in a lot of "blue collar" (I hate that term) fields have quickly caught up. For example, if you became a cop after undergrad (or even better, after HS or an associates degree), you could be making well into seven figures in many urban and nice suburban departments (for 40 hours a week, vs 40k more for 80+ hour weeks of drudgery in law) by the time you could go through law school and into big law. And no debt. They've dropped it down over the past five years, but at one point San Francisco was hiring their rookie cops at 110K. Lots of young metro north ticket punchers are into seven figures (there's a NYPost article every year about what percentage of them break $100k). $160K isn't "balling" unless cops and half the ticket punchers in your city are as well. Even if it were, you have no time to enjoy it anyway. Nationwide income metrics mean nothing. Local prices do.

On the "balling", I would also say that I could not afford to buy a place in Manhattan that I'd want raise 2 kids in. I could buy one, but it would require such a mortgage that I would golden handcuff myself.

You make a good chunk of money, but you're not living the high life as an associate, at least not responsibly.

Men were meant to work out side, patrolling the streets and protecting women and children, or making things with their hands, not sit in fluorescent light all day. Something's gotta give

[BernieTrump]

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