GULC Students Taking Questions Forum

[TLSModBot]

Hello all,

I am a prospective student, looking at Georgetown law. I hear mixed opinions when it comes to GULC's ability to secure jobs for its students.

I've seen all the numbers and all the stats on all the websites, but if possible I'd like to get an insight into the personal opinion of GULC students for the following: Is it hard to get a job? How is it scoring a job in biglaw? Is it as iffy as some people say, or is there really not too much to worry about?

Thank you to anyone in advance to anyone who answers this.

Trust the numbers. Personal anecdotes aren't going to do you any favors.

Getting a biglaw job from Georgetown is not hard if you get good grades (read: be decently above median). You have no way of knowing how well you will do and should assume median at any school.

[Glasseyes]

Agreed with the above. 20k isn't a huge price for some additional security. If you had a particularly compelling reason to do GULC over Michigan, like say you're DC or bust or interested in regulatory-type practices, then you could justify GULC at the slight discount. But if you just want generic biglaw + clerkship opportunities and you're fine going to NY if one of your other markets doesn't pan out, then Michigan offers you a better chance.

To the other question: I didn't feel like GULC was especially competitive in regard to the OCI process, but it's also pretty much known that you need to be around median to have a shot. So while it never felt cutthroat in my section, grades and exams are stressful as hell anyway. From what I hear from others though, that's true at all schools besides maybe Yale.

[Glasseyes]

About DC biglaw specifically: that top 10% guideline is a broad generalization. I was nowhere near that and did fine, but I hustled my ass off, have a strong resume, and probably got lucky. I know plenty of others in a similar situation. Then again, you could probably have killer grades and still strike out in DC, because the class sizes are generally smaller than NY and firms can afford to be as selective as they want, on whatever grounds they want. I used the opportunity to network throughout the semester to my advantage and it did help at several firms, including my upcoming summer firm. But it's impossible to say what degree that contributed. I doubt Michigan has any edge over hiring for DC biglaw, but it seems to offer a softer landing if you miss the mark.

[TLSModBot]

I had good grades and targeted DC Biglaw only. It was no guarantee and super stressful - anything you can do to reduce OCI stress is a good thing, and going to the best school possible (at a comfortable debt load) pays off down the road.

[Nolachicken]

Can I ask what are the major differences in DC big law to NYC? are there not as many positions? Different practice areas or specializations? Hours? Thanks!

[Mr. Blackacre]

Can I ask what are the major differences in DC big law to NYC? are there not as many positions? Different practice areas or specializations? Hours? Thanks!

There's a number of pretty significant differences. The big picture is that NYC is much more corporate-focused, has a lot more firms, with bigger summer classes, and isn't as difficult to get into.
NYC is the country's (really, the largest global) financial center, and as a result most of the big firms there have massive corporate departments, which is a big part of why they have more associate. They also do a lot of finance-related litigation, both civil and criminal, which also swells up the ranks of their litigation departments. It's not uncommon for NYC firms to have 80+ summer associates every summer.

By contrast, DC is a lot more insular. There is little corporate work to be done in the district, and even on the litigation side, since it's a much smaller city without that business/finance focus, there's just less going on. DC counterbalances that somewhat by having very strong regulatory practices, since all of the major U.S. administrative agencies are headquartered there, but regulatory work doesn't require the kind of manpower that you need in massive lawsuits or mergers, so to the best of my knowledge it's a leanly staffed practice area. As a result, it's fairly rare for DC firms to go above 20 summer associates (I think Covington, with its 75+ SAs, is the only firm in the city that has more than 50). And on top of that, because of the perceived prestige of 1) appellate practices in DC, 2) regulatory work, and 3) frequent interaction with and opportunities to cross over later in your career to the federal government, e.g. DOJ, a lot of the top students at the best law schools want to come work here. Obviously, with much less positions available and a higher competition, it's just harder to break into.

One last point about hours: supposedly firms as a whole work associates in DC less than in NYC, though more than in more secondary markets like LA or TX biglaw. Since DC is pretty much the second most popular destination after New York, you're still working very long hours, and to be honest I am doubtful that there is that significant of a difference between the two.

[Mr. Blackacre]

Hey all,

Any insights into the difficulty of obtaining Philly BigLaw or NYC BigLaw from GULC?

Finally, I guess I'm curious about the overall atmosphere of the school. Does the enormous class size get annoying? And does the fact that you seemingly need to be in the top 1/2 of the class in order to "guarantee" BigLaw/FC breed any additional anxiety among the general population?

Thanks!

People have already spoken to the choice between Mich and GULC. I agree that unless you absolutely want DC biglaw (and can't wait and reapply for better schools, e.g. UVA), it doesn't make sense to take GULC for 20k less than Mich.

Getting NYC Biglaw from GULC is doable when you're above median. Below median, you're going to have to be good at networking, the same way as you can get DC biglaw when you're not in the top 10% if you make an effort to get in contact with people outside of OCI. Philly biglaw is going to be about the same, but with the caveat that you'd better have some decent ties to the city to justify wanting to work there. Your interest for Philly will be a lot more important in the firm's decision than for NYC or DC firms.

Enormous class size at the school isn't really a problem. Mainly, you don't notice it. You're separated in sections of about 100 people during your first year, will take all your classes with those 100 people, and are only ranked against those 100 people. There also doesn't seem to be much anxiety among the students - I don't actually think most people are aware of the stats, or if they are, are as worried about them as people on this forum are. In any event, people are also generally friendly/willing to work together, and there isn't much visible competition or gunnerness going on (I can really think of only one big gunner I've met so far in the whole class of 2017).

[Glasseyes]

Can I ask what are the major differences in DC big law to NYC? are there not as many positions? Different practice areas or specializations? Hours? Thanks!

As a result, it's fairly rare for DC firms to go above 20 summer associates (I think Covington, with its 75+ SAs, is the only firm in the city that has more than 50).

And the really depressing part: despite the size of its class, Covington is prob the hardest big firm to land in the city (besides Williams & Connolly). Just to flesh out a little of what Blackacre laid out: some of the other bigger offices are hiring at reasonably decent numbers again, but the larger point stands. Hogan is the only other firm that takes over 50, whereas Arnold & Porter took about 35 last year... then it jumps down to around 20 per at WilmerHale, Jones Day and a few others. There are a ton of satellite offices that take between 1 and 10 kids, often with lower GPA thresholds, though kids fight over those jobs tooth and nail, so they become hypercompetitive based on "fit". Meanwhile, even a relatively smallish firm like Paul, Weiss takes 120 kids in NY, so the hiring standards outside of the super elite firms are typically much lower.

[gazorpazorp]

.

[Glasseyes]

Thanks everyone. So if someone is "dead set" on DC biglaw, there is reason to value GULC over other lower-T14s due to networking opportunities?

This decision is tying my stomach in knots but I really appreciate all the different perspectives.

It's difficult to give concrete advice for the same reason you're struggling with the decision, unfortunately. Nobody's got a crystal ball, and there are a lot of intangibles here. When you say "dead set", what exactly do you mean? Think of it in terms of worst outcomes: if you don't have the grades for DC biglaw, what's your backup? Would you shoot for biglaw in NY? Shoot for a smaller firm or a govt job here in DC? You also have to recognize that lots of people just get shitty grades and can't get biglaw anywhere (or they get good grades but they're bad at interviewing, and strike out for that reason—nothing is guaranteed no matter where you go). This all boils down to your own personal degree of risk tolerance, and whether you can live with the "lesser" outcomes you can get from these schools if you don't hit your target. Another question you want to ask yourself: what is it about DC biglaw that you actually find compelling? Can you articulate an actual reason for wanting to be here? Is there a particular practice that you're interested in? Just test your beliefs a little bit and make sure they hold up. Take a peek through this if you haven't already: http://www.chambers-associate.com/where ... ew-york-dc

Again, I think there's value to being here if you are absolutely DC biglaw or bust, but recognize that you're trading some degree of job security in terms of fallback opportunities, and ask yourself if that's something you can live with. I think you can safely justify this either way, especially when there's a price premium on Michigan, but you really have to weigh the pros and cons for yourself.

[Mr. Blackacre]

Thanks everyone. So if someone is "dead set" on DC biglaw, there is reason to value GULC over other lower-T14s due to networking opportunities?

This decision is tying my stomach in knots but I really appreciate all the different perspectives.

It's also difficult to give you an answer when we don't know the debt load you'll be taking at either. If the difference is between <100k at GULC and <120k at UMich, I would say it could be worth it (although I personally wouldn't have felt comfortable attending GULC for more than 70k of debt, but I am VERY risk averse). If the difference is between 150-200k at GULC and 170-220k at UMich, I wouldn't go to Georgetown.

[Londonbear]

Can I ask what are the major differences in DC big law to NYC? are there not as many positions? Different practice areas or specializations? Hours? Thanks!

There's a number of pretty significant differences. The big picture is that NYC is much more corporate-focused, has a lot more firms, with bigger summer classes, and isn't as difficult to get into.
NYC is the country's (really, the largest global) financial center, and as a result most of the big firms there have massive corporate departments, which is a big part of why they have more associate. They also do a lot of finance-related litigation, both civil and criminal, which also swells up the ranks of their litigation departments. It's not uncommon for NYC firms to have 80+ summer associates every summer.

By contrast, DC is a lot more insular. There is little corporate work to be done in the district, and even on the litigation side, since it's a much smaller city without that business/finance focus, there's just less going on. DC counterbalances that somewhat by having very strong regulatory practices, since all of the major U.S. administrative agencies are headquartered there, but regulatory work doesn't require the kind of manpower that you need in massive lawsuits or mergers, so to the best of my knowledge it's a leanly staffed practice area. As a result, it's fairly rare for DC firms to go above 20 summer associates (I think Covington, with its 75+ SAs, is the only firm in the city that has more than 50). And on top of that, because of the perceived prestige of 1) appellate practices in DC, 2) regulatory work, and 3) frequent interaction with and opportunities to cross over later in your career to the federal government, e.g. DOJ, a lot of the top students at the best law schools want to come work here. Obviously, with much less positions available and a higher competition, it's just harder to break into.

One last point about hours: supposedly firms as a whole work associates in DC less than in NYC, though more than in more secondary markets like LA or TX biglaw. Since DC is pretty much the second most popular destination after New York, you're still working very long hours, and to be honest I am doubtful that there is that significant of a difference between the two.

I agree w/most, except for the bolded. I've heard from a lot of adjuncts and those that work in DC that there is less face-time demands and firms actually try to promote "work-life balance" as much as they can. In NY, "work-life balance" will get you laughed out the door, especially in corporate practice where you should know what you're getting yourself into. For example, on a corporate practice panel, a NY attorney at Skadden stressed the importance of getting your life in order, ie. simple things such as having the drycleaning delivered to your office especially during time periods when you barely go home for 3 wks.

You can also do corporate practice in DC, but it just isn't that much of an appeal, considering NY is so close. Some firms have a decent size corporate practice, like Hogan. But generally, the focus will be as Blackacre says which is on regulatory work and appellate practices.

[Londonbear]

Hello all,

I am a prospective student, looking at Georgetown law. I hear mixed opinions when it comes to GULC's ability to secure jobs for its students.

I've seen all the numbers and all the stats on all the websites, but if possible I'd like to get an insight into the personal opinion of GULC students for the following: Is it hard to get a job? How is it scoring a job in biglaw? Is it as iffy as some people say, or is there really not too much to worry about?

Thank you to anyone in advance to anyone who answers this.

I think everyone touched on great detail about the other questions. I think as a prospective student, it is something to worry about b/c you really don't know how you're going to perform in law school. Many people, come into law school, especially in top schools and think they'll do well b/c they've always done well. Some do and some don't. You realized there's so many people who can work harder than you and/or is smarter than you. Sometimes you get what the professor wants, and sometimes you get it too late or not at all, and that sucks b/c your first year will determine to a large extent clerkships and biglaw, all the gigs that sound great. So that's why you want to go to the best possible school you can w/o being too much in debt, you don't want to play against the odds.

[MAPP]

How much do you socialize with your section (and other students not in your section)? I don't want to go somewhere where everyone just studies, I wanna see the city, get drinks, and have some fun

[Londonbear]

Thanks everyone. So if someone is "dead set" on DC biglaw, there is reason to value GULC over other lower-T14s due to networking opportunities?

This decision is tying my stomach in knots but I really appreciate all the different perspectives.

I think there's something to be said about the fact that GT is in DC, so it's easier to find attorneys who are GT alums to talk to and network with. You're more able to have coffee/lunch (in person interactions) w/them and continue to connect over time. Not so much if you were in a far away location.

I think someone earlier asked about opportunities during 2L&3L year. One of the great things about DC is there is just so many things you can do, from public interest to governmental agencies. It's not very competitive during the school year, but I think it is a good experience in general, and might look good on your resume. I don't know how much of a booster it is, I guess it depends on what you want to pursue. The gov agency I externed with was really great about providing me w/other contacts and encouraged me to keep in contact. The point is it is what you make of it anywhere. I'm generally happy w/my decision to go to GT. There's more than enough opportunities here to explore and the people are great. Visit the schools if you get a chance. It is going to be the next three years of your life.

[EzraFitz]

How much do you socialize with your section (and other students not in your section)? I don't want to go somewhere where everyone just studies, I wanna see the city, get drinks, and have some fun

Live in Gewirz, and go to Bar Reviews.

[Glasseyes]

Visit the schools if you get a chance. It is going to be the next three years of your life.

Yeah, I agree with that. This point gets deemphasized on TLS for generally good reasons (picking a school based on the campus is dumb when only employment outcomes matter), but when you've got it down to two schools and you could go either way, you may as well factor in which city and school you actually prefer in person.

[Nolachicken]

Thanks everyone for all of the support and answers! Y'all have been amazing!

[Glasseyes]

How much do you socialize with your section (and other students not in your section)? I don't want to go somewhere where everyone just studies, I wanna see the city, get drinks, and have some fun

I'm old so I do nothing, but all the youngsters seem to live it up. Based on what I see on fb, everybody is best friends with each other, plenty of inter-section romances going on, lots of drinking and fun. I can pretty much guarantee you there's more of a nightlife here than someplace horrible like Cornell. Everyone studies pretty damn hard at every law school, but people find a lot of time to get out and cut loose.

[Mockingbird42]

[TLSModBot]

Quick Question:

I've been looking into Curriculum B and after sitting in on both the Curriculum A Torts and Curriculum B Bargaining, Exchange and Liability I'm leaning towards signing up for B. That said, from what I read online the student body seems to be incredibly politically homogenous. I'm split-ticket voting moderate, and I rely heavily on diversity of perspectives to help me approach things at different angles and I worry I would be missing that in Section 3.

My questions is: is this impression correct or is there enough diversity of opinions that discussions would be less one-sided?

A. It doesn't matter when it comes to anything you do in class
B. There are conservatives and liberals and everything in between everywhere at GULC
and C. it really, really doesn't matter.

If you need people to argue with, there's Reddit. If you'd like to jump through the necessary educational hoops to become a lawyer, there's law school.

[Mockingbird42]

[TLSModBot]

B. There are conservatives and liberals and everything in between everywhere at GULC

Ok good to know, but what about section 3 in particular?

The point of my question is that I don't want to get in arguments all the time. I want listen to other perspectives and I don't want to be the only one initiating that.

I wasn't section 3 personally but everyone I know who was in it says it is literally no different from the non-section 3 classes they have: same ratio of mostly quiet regular people and the occasional argumentative gunner/jackass derailing the conversation. Sometimes it's a conservative jackass, sometimes it's a liberal one.

[Mockingbird42]

[Glasseyes]

Eh, it's not hard to tell who was section 3 and who wasn't. The section 3 student body is—and this is absolutely a generalization—the definition of bleeding-heart, dyed-in-the-wool liberal, PI-focused, change-the-world-through-progressive-policy types. I've met a couple kids who don't fit that description who did section 3: a couple of them thought it was fine, and a few absolutely hated it. Meanwhile, the PI-types who do it do usually love it. Overall it seems like a tight-knit group, possibly because they know the rest of the school is laughing at them.

GULC will tell you it doesn't matter at all for hiring, and maybe they're right, but that's not the impression I get from firm interviewers. Comments I got during OCI interviews:

"Wait, you guys have that weird section, right? Like some kind of stupid public interest thing that doesn't mean anything. Man, why would anyone do that?"
From an alum: "did they get rid of section 3 yet?"
"Just to confirm, you weren't curriculum B, right?" -asked completely deadpan, in all seriousness.

A lot of non-section 3 professors also mock it pretty hard when section 3 kids aren't around, and of course a lot of the student body does as well. I know some very PI-centric kids from my section who think the section 3 kids are goofy. But live and let live. We try to let them live in their blissful little bubble, which not-coincidentally fits their worldview pretty well. I'm partly teasing, but in all seriousness, unless you have a compelling reason to do it—like: you have zero interest in the private sector, you know that isn't ever going to change, unlike the other 85% of PI-only people that come to law school yet still do OCI, and you legitimately want to work for an NGO or do civil rights work, and nothing else in life would make you happy—yeah, unless that's you, I would steer clear.