Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 3L, Taking Questions Forum

[Judge Philip Banks]

Hey NoleinNY - just wanted to say congrats on finishing up 1L! Must feel nice. How's the write-on competition going so far for you? Did you do anything to prepare for it?

Thanks! The write-on is OK... It's not fun, but you gotta do it if you want to get on. I'm also trying out for Byrne, and I'd rather get that. I didn't really prepare for write-on. Not much you could do to prepare for it besides paying attention in Legal Research and Writing class haha.

I have heard some people read Volokh's Academic Legal Writing and/or the Bluebook at some point before the competition - you think that is overboard? The few 1Ls I know at LLS didn't do any prep, either, for what it's worth.

So you are doing both the Byrne tryouts AND the write-on at the same time?? That seems pretty hard haha. I was looking at the Byrne tryout requirements that are publicly available, and it seems pretty tough. How do they really expect anyone to be able to competently and meaningfully take part in the tryouts when you haven't had any training in those activities, such as closing arguments or direct/cross examinations (or are there instructions that explain everything?)? This is especially in comparison to the write-on, where you should essentially learn much of what it takes to successfully compete in a required class (LRW)...

Eh. It probably helps, but I don't know anyone doing it. Obviously, you have to use the Bluebook when you write it up, but reading the bluebook ahead of time is like reading the Federalist Papers before you take Con Law... Sure, it will help you understand some of the concepts and you'll certainly be referred to quotes and such from it, but who in their right mind would do it?

As for Byrne and Write-On, it's about time allocation. They tell you at the Byrne tryouts that you should need a few hours (not a few days) to prep for the closing arguments. They have a training a few days before the competition (they held it on Friday) that explains what goes into a closing argument and it had pointers. If you have never had that kind of experience, I could see the training session being very useful. If you are familiar with it... It makes you want to put a power drill to your temple and pull the trigger. As for your last point, part of this might be self-selection: the people who would be inclined to do the Trial Team would be people who have been interested in and good at this stuff. From what I gathered, the Tryouts are 10% Reading Comprehension, 15% Preparation/Writing, 75% public speaking/communication ability.

Good point about the self-selection. That makes sense. I guess if the Byrne tryouts require less time if you are part of the self-selected group, handling the write-on at the same time might not be terrible. Still seems stressful haha.

Does Loyola teach the Bluebook in LRW class? I thought I had read somewhere that they use some other method/book. Or does it vary by professor?

[NoleinNY]

Does Loyola teach the Bluebook in LRW class? I thought I had read somewhere that they use some other method/book. Or does it vary by professor?

They teach you how to use the BB and such, but there is some variation between professors. My prof was very content oriented and only made us read a bit of the BB here and there; my roommate's professor made them do citation drills. Etc. If I became the King of Legal Practice (Or head of the ABA or whatever) my first act would be to have all existing copies of the BB that aren't preserved in a museum to be burned and the publisher enjoined from making future editions. I'm sorry, but any citation/writing manual that requires a separate book just to decipher it (like some sort of Rosetta Stone) isn't worth keeping around...

... Not that I am bitter or anything...

[seaguy2010]

What are the first couple weeks like? How is it structured in the beginning in terms of assignments, etc?

[jesss]

any problems with exam software if I were to buy a mac? do you have a summer position lined up or know if a lot of people that had a difficult time finding a position?

[NoleinNY]

What are the first couple weeks like? How is it structured in the beginning in terms of assignments, etc?

The first couple weeks are light on assignments from my experience... Well, you don't really have "assignments" other than read "pages X-Y." It feels like, for most classes first semester, they take it kinda easy on you for the first week or two. After about a month, however, grind is in full force. In Legal Research and Writing, the first few weeks are spent explaining what the hell "Legal Writing" is, followed by, well, actually writing.

any problems with exam software if I were to buy a mac? do you have a summer position lined up or know if a lot of people that had a difficult time finding a position?

I have a Mac and experienced very few problems. The only issue I've had, which I think may not occur in PCs (but I"m not sure) is taking longer to upload for a dumb reason...

At LLS, we to install a piece of security software to be able to access the wi-fi (also, I think it keeps your computer clean, too). ExamSoft, the software we take exams on, turns off all programs running during the exam... which, in Mac, turns off the security software.

When you exit the exam screen, it is supposed to automatically upload. But without the security software, you cannot connect to the Internet and, thus, the exam won't load right away. All you have to do is just log back onto the security software and it usually uploads after that (once or twice I had to do a manual upload, or have a technician help me out, but no horror stories). I've not seen anyone have any catastrophic issues with Macs and ExamSoft.

tl; dr version: If you want a Mac, get a Mac.

As for jobs, I have work lined up with what I consider a big firm. I don't want to say "Big Law," because that has certain connotations around these parts and it doesn't fit that mold (i.e., it lacks $3,000 per week salaries, not on Vault/AmLaw list, narrow practice, etc.); it does have offices around the country, though, and it has big companies for clients. I am also getting paid.

Most of my friends have stuff lined up. One friend just doesn't care and wants to take it easy this summer, though I don't recommend that to anyone... Another friend has been trying to find work, and has a back-up (Legal-Aid) if he doesn't find something soon.

[071816]

At your summer firm, in what practice area will you be working? Will you be doing the type of work that you are interested in/plan on going into after law school?

Edit: Also, approximately how many attorneys are at the firm?

[NoleinNY]

At your summer firm, in what practice area will you be working? Will you be doing the type of work that you are interested in/plan on going into after law school?

Edit: Also, approximately how many attorneys are at the firm?

I will be working in Defense-side labor law practice; essentially, companies hire this firm (and others like it) to defend against suits brought by employees. I guess it is similar to the kind of work I would like to do (i.e., litigation), even if it isn't necessarily in my first choice of practice area. But who knows? Maybe I'll enjoy labor law. From a barely-experienced 1L-going-on-2L perspective, I think real estate and entertainment sound interesting, though they are a) over-saturated and b) more likely to be transactional and not litigation practices.

As for your second question, somewhere between 100-150 attorneys are in the firm total, spread across several offices. Not a huge firm, but not what I consider a mid sized firm. (Again, this is using my subjective meaning of big/medium/small and not the standard BigLaw/MidLaw/SmallLaw/ShitLaw definitions)

[071816]

Thanks. How did you find the job?

[NoleinNY]

Good ol' fashioned networking.

[balls]

danteshek needs a dirty lay.

[071816]

1) Based on what you have seen or heard from fellow students/faculty/career services/etc. how bleak is the current job outlook for the average student at Loyola? Do most people outside the top 10-15% strike out at OCI? I know it is hard to give a meaningful answer to this, but I just want your perspective.

2) Would you go to USC at sticker over Loyola with an 87k scholarship (with the top 30% stip)?

3) Did you receive a scholarship from Loyola? If so, for how much? Do you think you will be able to keep your scholarship for 2L?

[NoleinNY]

1) Based on what you have seen or heard from fellow students/faculty/career services/etc. how bleak is the current job outlook for the average student at Loyola? Do most people outside the top 10-15% strike out at OCI? I know it is hard to give a meaningful answer to this, but I just want your perspective.

2) Would you go to USC at sticker over Loyola with an 87k scholarship (with the top 30% stip)?

3) Did you receive a scholarship from Loyola? If so, for how much? Do you think you will be able to keep your scholarship for 2L?

1) I don't know the exact correlation of who gets the jobs at OCI. The Class of 2010, who would have interviewed during Fall of 2008 (when shit rolled down hill), got 44 jobs through OCI. That translates to about 12%. About 17.5% reported working for a firm with 100+ lawyers in it.

I think a top 10% student who isn't socially incompetent can do OK in OCI.

I haven't met that people who were panicking. I knew a few 2Ls searching for work at the last, but I don't know how representative (or not) they are.

2) Hmm... No lie, I think that is a very tough decision. I am a USC fan, and they offer more portability outside of LA if I wanted. That said, a potential 30-100k reduction in debt to overcome is a big deal. If you are faced with that decision, I'd think long and hard about what your goals are, what you bring to the table (in terms of background, potential work experience, and back-up plans) and see what works best. Also, visit both schools and figure out which you like more. I do know at least one student who turned down USC for LLS w/ 87 and (s)he seemed happy with the decision.

3) I did receive a scholarship, standard 87k, 30%. We shall see if I keep it. I've had some issues lately (which I won't discuss them further because they will out me) that have affected me negatively this last year. If I can't make the Top 30%, I may try to appeal for only a reduction, or search for other scholarships. If none of that works, I'll just have to be thriftier with loans and living expenses. The way I see it, worst comes to worst, at least I will have 29k less debt than if I had gone for sticker. Yes, I am aware that being a lower rank would = harder job search, but you have to keep your head up and grind ITE.

[Danteshek]

danteshek needs a dirty lay.

Gross. I proposed to my girlfriend three weeks ago... She said yes.

[071816]

So how's the summer job going?

[Danteshek]

So how's the summer job going?

Really well, actually. Here's an update:

I am externing for a federal district judge downtown (summer job). This is my best practical experience since starting law school. That includes my internship at the SEC last summer.

I am publishing an article in the Journal of Business and Technology Law at the University of Maryland
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1857889

I am grading the law review write on competition along with the rest of the Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review editors

I was selected by the Federalist Society to the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy symposium issue Editorial Board (along with 26 others from 20 law schools).

I have a lot to do this summer.

[071816]

Cool man. How did you land all those awesome gigs?

[Danteshek]

Cool man. How did you land all those awesome gigs?

A lot of research and leveraging my prior experience. Given the response my article has already generated, I would not be surprised if it led to a job. In fact, a partner of a DC litigation boutique specializing in whistleblowers has already said I should apply to his firm.

What you can achieve is limited only by your own imagination.

[071816]

Cool man. How did you land all those awesome gigs?

A lot of research and leveraging my prior experience. Given the response my article has already generated, I would not be surprised if it led to a job. In fact, a partner of a DC litigation boutique specializing in whistleblowers has already said I should apply to his firm.

What you can achieve is limited only by your own imagination.

I figured you must have had some kind of relevant prior experience.

[Danteshek]

The key is to find a niche that makes sense for you. The most successful law students are strategic about their choices. A buddy of mine from Southwestern just got an interview at the U.S. Attorney's office on the strength of recommendations from a top DA official and the U.S. Attorney himself. My friend has won multiple trial advocacy competitions, but has only average grades.

[NoleinNY]

So how's the summer job going?

Love it. Absolutely love it. The cases are fascinating, the attorneys are all really chill, and the work is varied.

[071816]

Are there any decent apartment complexes within walking distance of Loyola that won't cost more than $800 per month? Where do you guys live? What do you recommend? I know this has probably been discussed but any info. would be really helpful.

Edit: Do you guys recommend living within walking distance for 1L?

[Danteshek]

Do you guys recommend living within walking distance for 1L?

Bad idea. The best option is to sell your car and take the bus to school from La Brea/Wilshire area. But I doubt you are courageous enough to do that.

[NoleinNY]

Do you guys recommend living within walking distance for 1L?

Bad idea. The best option is to sell your car and take the bus to school from La Brea/Wilshire area. But I doubt you are courageous enough to do that.

If he is courageous enough to be willing to live within walking distance from the school, surely he'd be courageous enough to commute by bus.

Are there any decent apartment complexes within walking distance of Loyola that won't cost more than $800 per month? Where do you guys live? What do you recommend? I know this has probably been discussed but any info. would be really helpful.

Edit: Do you guys recommend living within walking distance for 1L?

No, there aren't that many good places within walking distances that are, simultaneously, $800 or less that aren't in the bad neighborhood. You either pay to live in a nice place (like the Medici), or you commute via car/bus/train from somewhere else.

[071816]

The Medici sucks. Too fucking expensive.

[Danteshek]

Ok. If you are willing to spend $1,100 per month you can get a nice one bedroom in miracle mile. You can spend the money from selling your car and the money that you'll save not paying for gas.