Law Grads: Did you regret turning down an Ivy? Forum

[silverdoe91]

just go to cornell jesus christ

They don't have a lot of the classes I want, they're really removed from NYC where I can make a lot of connections, and its super expensive compared to my other options. Literally the only reason why I would go there right now is because it's an Ivy and has some prestige. But that seems like a huge trade off considering they don't even have a lot of what I want (classes, clinics, access to internships during school for more than just one semester and at a variety of different legal institutions.)

[silverdoe91]

This question is primarily for Law Graduates who turned down an offer from an Ivy League in exchange for more money at a lower ranked school. Did any of you end up regretting your decision? Why or why not?

I think the answer depends on whether you're talking about an "Ivy" (i.e., Cornell, Penn), an Ivy (i.e., Columbia), or an Ivy (i.e., Yale, Harvard).

It's Cornell, so the first group. I've heard that lower ranked Ivies don't hold as much prestige...is that true?

[TheDapperDruid]

just go to cornell jesus christ

They don't have a lot of the classes I want, they're really removed from NYC where I can make a lot of connections, and its super expensive compared to my other options. Literally the only reason why I would go there right now is because it's an Ivy and has some prestige. But that seems like a huge trade off considering they don't even have a lot of what I want (classes, clinics, access to internships during school for more than just one semester and at a variety of different legal institutions.)

Sounds like you've already made up your mind...

[Babum]

just go to cornell jesus christ

They don't have a lot of the classes I want, they're really removed from NYC where I can make a lot of connections, and its super expensive compared to my other options. Literally the only reason why I would go there right now is because it's an Ivy and has some prestige. But that seems like a huge trade off considering they don't even have a lot of what I want (classes, clinics, access to internships during school for more than just one semester and at a variety of different legal institutions.)

I wholly disagree with your reasoning, but it is your career. Full disclosure, I do go to Cornell.

[Foghornleghorn]

Lol at picking a law school for course offerings

[NoLieAbility]

It's Cornell, so the first group. I've heard that lower ranked Ivies don't hold as much prestige...is that true?

Hey, everyone is making fun of you and your posts. The one you responded to? Mocking you. There have been... maybe... two responses that weren't making fun of you, and they each have people making fun of them, too.

Ivies aren't a thing in the legal culture - the T14 is, and it matters, though people on here largely make fun of those who think it matters, too. Make your choice based on what you think will get you the job you want. When making that decision, don't use your shitty anecdotes. Use data. The data exists, and a bunch of nerds fought and died in the muck of the internet in order to give it to you. So use it.

Cardozo sucks. Cornell is awesome. Go to Cornell.

[Redfactor]

Thank you for your contribution, it really is helpful! Right now I am considering either Cornell at half a ride (still over 100k altogether) or Cardozo for free (unconditional scholarship.) So for the latter, there would not be much buyer's remorse since I would be paying literally nothing to attend school there. There may be a heavy dose of buyer's remorse if I choose Cornell though, because it does not have all the classes I want, that Cardozo does, such as in Entertainment Law and Public Interest Law (Cardozo has more variety in that field) as well as being in debt and later having to pay off loans that I would otherwise not have to pay if I went to Cardozo. I am worried about the job prospects, but since I am not aiming for biglaw I don't think it makes sense to take out over $100k in loans when I can go to law school for free. I'm just wondering, what, if any, other related advantages of going to an "Ivy" like Cornell would I be missing out on that perhaps MIGHT make that $100k debt worth it? Because I don't want to regret it later on.

Also, I've heard before that lower end T14 schools are often not as well-regarded as other Ivies are. Like I've literally heard that at the last firm I worked at (Top 20 BigLaw) they have a corporate culture where they literally make fun of the associates who went to Duke. So if they're nasty like that about Duke, I can't imagine how they would be about Cornell. If going to a bottom tier Ivy will result in that kind of bias, I don't see the point in shelling out $100k and spending the next ten years of my life (or more) paying it off when I can literally go to school for free (and Cardozo happens to have a fairly good reputation with that corporate Law firm I worked at as well as some others in NYC if that's the route I ever want to take.)

I chose the free school route. I am happy with my decision, but I also landed my dream job (not Biglaw). So there's that. My 60k salary is all mine my wife's. (No, I didn't leave out a "1".)

In your case, I would say that the additional debt for Cornell is worth it. I think the key takeaway of "they literally make fun of the associates who went to Duke" is that the Duke grads obtained jobs as associates.

Is someone going to be swooning over a Cornell degree like they might a Yale degree? No. But Cornell does a great job placing its students in high-paying jobs. The same cannot be said of Cardozo.

Best of luck in your decision.

[sflyr2016]

After reading your goals, now I can absolutely say: Go to Cornell! It's not even close. Don't limit yourself. Most people here have more experience in this than you, and nearly everyone is saying the same thing: Cornell is the better choice. And quit worrying about the debt -- you'll either work a biglaw job that'll allow you to pay it off or do pi and can have the government pay it for you. The bottom line is that by going to Cornell you'll have these options; from Cardozo, however, it's significantly less likely.

[dabigchina]

It's Cornell, so the first group. I've heard that lower ranked Ivies don't hold as much prestige...is that true?

Hey, everyone is making fun of you and your posts. The one you responded to? Mocking you. There have been... maybe... two responses that weren't making fun of you, and they each have people making fun of them, too.

Ivies aren't a thing in the legal culture - the T14 is, and it matters, though people on here largely make fun of those who think it matters, too. Make your choice based on what you think will get you the job you want. When making that decision, don't use your shitty anecdotes. Use data. The data exists, and a bunch of nerds fought and died in the muck of the internet in order to give it to you. So use it.

Cardozo sucks. Cornell is awesome. Go to Cornell.

spoiler alert: he/she's not going to take your advice

[pancakes3]

ask this question on JDunderground.

[kcdc1]

I think OP is probably trolling, but if not, the clear choice here is Cornell.

[First Offense]

No one gives a shit about "Ivy" for law schools.

T14 v. T1 is a different discussion.

[DELG]

Today I regret not turning down all law schools and finding something else to do

[1styearlateral]

Lol at picking a law school for course offerings

Yeah I don't understand this either. Absolutely nothing in law school is going to help you in practice. Want to do entertainment law? Intern at an entertainment law firm. Better shot at doing that coming from Cornell than Cardozo.

[emkay625]

This question is primarily for Law Graduates who turned down an offer from an Ivy League in exchange for more money at a lower ranked school. Did any of you end up regretting your decision? Why or why not?

I did this and it turned out fine for me and I have zero regrets, but that decision was turning down several lower T-14s for UT, which is a much different decision than the Cornell v. Fordham/Cardozo/St. Johns one you have.

You really should go to Cornell.

[Dcc617]

This question is primarily for Law Graduates who turned down an offer from an Ivy League in exchange for more money at a lower ranked school. Did any of you end up regretting your decision? Why or why not?

I did this and it turned out fine for me and I have zero regrets, but that decision was turning down several lower T-14s for UT, which is a much different decision than the Cornell v. Fordham/Cardozo/St. Johns one you have.

You really should go to Cornell.

Or RETAKE AND REAPPLY UNITIL HE'S MORE SATISFIED WITH HIS OPTIONS!

[tomwatts]

As threads like this go (where an OP seeks approval from strangers on the Internet of a bad plan that he has concocted but frames it in terms of seeking advice, nearly all of which opposes the bad idea and which the OP rejects despite having asked for it), this one is more amusing than most.

[AntsInMyEyesJohnson]

just go to cornell jesus christ

They don't have a lot of the classes I want, they're really removed from NYC where I can make a lot of connections, and its super expensive compared to my other options. Literally the only reason why I would go there right now is because it's an Ivy and has some prestige. But that seems like a huge trade off considering they don't even have a lot of what I want (classes, clinics, access to internships during school for more than just one semester and at a variety of different legal institutions.)

I still don't see how it is that you refuse to admit that Cornell will give you better job prospects. It's not even as if we didn't have the information and were purely speculating; Cornell will give you objectively better options across the board. The prestige is a bonus and a small one at that, and classes, clinics, etc. aren't enough to justify your reasoning for not going.

Like others have said, though, it's your life and your career. Do whatever you're gonna do. I hope it works out for you.

[anyriotgirl]

This question is primarily for Law Graduates who turned down an offer from an Ivy League in exchange for more money at a lower ranked school. Did any of you end up regretting your decision? Why or why not?

I think the answer depends on whether you're talking about an "Ivy" (i.e., Cornell, Penn), an Ivy (i.e., Columbia), or an Ivy (i.e., Yale, Harvard).

Lmao.

To op: Fwiw, I attended a T1 and turned down Duke after my 1L year to save money. And I've never regretted that decision. Of course, I landed the job and clerkship I wanted, so it's easy to say that now. Had that not happened, I probably would have regretted it a lot. So my only point is that the only thing you're really going to have buyer's remorse over is spending a lot of time and money on something that didn't pay off while knowing that you could have done something else and it probably would have turned out differently. I don't know how much the debt difference will be, but if you can attend Cornell at a reasonable cost, then I think it is a no-brainier. Keep in mind that as a 0L, you really have no idea how you'll perform; you probably won't rank high enough in your class at the lower-ranked school to give you comparable job prospects that median at Cornell would have given you. For that reason, you should really be considering attending Cornell -- not because of preftige. which it doesn't sound like you care about, but because it will give you a much better chance at getting a good job (however you define it).

.... this is not the decision OP is making?

OP if Cornell is too expensive maybe you should retake or take DELG's excellent advice

[JenDarby]

OP should obviously go to Cornell. He/she has already got the indelible "Ivy" complex that goes hand-in-hand with attendance at Cornell. See Andy Bernard of The Office for a caricaturization.

Just don't be offended when you arent invited to mixers and other social events designated for real Ivies.

HTH.

I work with the real life Andy Bernard. He mentions that he went to Cornell on a near daily basis. The other day he was talking about how he spent the weekend taking his son on a college tour at Cornell. His son is 14.

OP: you'd probably be really happy at Cornell.

[silverdoe91]

A lot of people here are mentioning that the debt I take on should not be a concern for me because I'll pay it off either with BigLaw or through LRAP. There's two major problems I have with this reasoning:

A. Many people (including people I've met, people on this board, and statistically) seem to absolutely hate BigLaw and regret having to basically be locked into working in BigLaw for years just to pay off their loans (what I've learned is that interest builds up and living expenses tend to be higher than you think so you usually end up paying more than you expected and it takes longer than you predict to pay off your loans as well.) I do not want that kind of fate. Furthermore, I do not like the substance of BigLaw...I prefer working with real people or at least doing work that would impact people on a larger scale.

B. The LRAP will only cover you in some types of jobs, which also greatly limits your job prospects. Even if Cornell's LRAP covers nonprofits, govt. and unions, I do not think the Federal Loan Forgiveness program applies to any organizations that are not govt/nonprofits, so if I take a union job for example then my loans won't be forgiven from what I understand? Also, the LRAP cap is set at 80k so as soon as you get a raise you are no longer eligible, or if you are married your spouse's income is taken into account and you may lose LRAP eligibility because of that. You can file taxes separately, but that would disqualify you from taking tax deductions which may be helpful when raising a family. During maternity leave, Cornell's LRAP only covers you for 3 months, when most public interest organizations give at least 6 months; which leaves you to pay your loans on your own when you are jobless and need the money most due to the expenses of starting a new family.

As for the claim that Cornell can get me any job I want, my question is HOW? How if I don't have the experience? Sure, I can take one semester off to do an externship in NYC at an entertainment law firm...but then I can only do two more internships for my summers and that's it. I feel like that might not give me the amount of time and exposure I need to decide on what field of law I want to work in or enough experience to get some of the jobs I want after graduation (some fields such as entertainment or public interest law hire people based on experience rather than school ranking or even grades.) Whereas if I go to school in the city, I'd be able to do internships every semester I can during my 2L and 3L, picking up more experience, more knowledge about the field, and more contacts. Also, with the options I'm considering now, the schools in the city not only would allow me greater access to internships but they would also save me a lot of money, so it seems like a win-win for me.

[Dcc617]

Lstscorereports.com

Also, retake and reapply.

[A. Nony Mouse]

During maternity leave, Cornell's LRAP only covers you for 3 months, when most public interest organizations give at least 6 months; which leaves you to pay your loans on your own when you are jobless and need the money most due to the expenses of starting a new family.

What organizations give six months?

[silverdoe91]

Lstscorereports.com

Also, retake and reapply.

Yeah, I'm considering retaking and reappylying to NYU...what score do you think I would need to get in with some scholarship money? Or at least get in because last time I didn't.

I will admit that my application to NYU was not the best. I sent it first so I had some problems with my transcript being sent on time and I didn't have an additional rec from my volunteer supervisor at the time (which is probably why I got waitlisted from Columbia but not NYU.) I feel like I kind of messed up on my NYU app which is why I want to do it over again, but I feel like it would be such a hassle...especially if I'd have to study and take the LSAT again.

I am also considering applying to NYU as a transfer student. Would my odds be better as a transfer or regular applicant? I know I would not be eligible for any scholarship money as a transfer which would really suck, but I don't really want to waste a year either...

[silverdoe91]

During maternity leave, Cornell's LRAP only covers you for 3 months, when most public interest organizations give at least 6 months; which leaves you to pay your loans on your own when you are jobless and need the money most due to the expenses of starting a new family.

What organizations give six months?

An attorney I worked with at the New York Legal Assistance Group, a non-profit in NYC, got 7 months and she told me its about the same for most non-profits. It's unpaid, but still during that time you'd need to have some way to pay your loans, especially since it's not paid.