Is it really THAT bad? (Don't be offended!) Forum

[GFox345]

1. It's almost definitely flame that you worked 12 hour days. I'm guessing you include lunch, breaks, shooting the shit, and commutes to get that time. People always exaggerate their hours.

Most poor folks don't even work 40 hours a week.

2. You are underestimating how bad the stress makes stuff.

3. Working on mental work for 12 hours is mentally draining and depressing. Biglaw is not a regular office job where you can do nothing for 6 out of your 8 hour shift.

4. Some ahole drill sarging you a bit sucks, but biglawyers will demand perfection then shun you from minor mistakes (or not even mistakes, just not reading their mind)

5. The biggest thing is when you put the rake down, your job is done. Your biglaw gig is supposed to be on your mind all the time. You are never off the clock. Never. Maybe your wedding day, maybe.

There's a reason I'm working biglaw and not bigYARD raking but if the pay was the same I'd rather rake leaves than do biglaw.

This a job were people make like 200k and FIGHT to take government jobs for 85k.

Not flame working 12 hours a day. It was a get to work by 6 am, leave by 7 pm with a 30 minute lunch break situation. I was a younger black guy working with a bunch of immigrant Mexicans who didn't speak a lick of English, not like we're having riveting conversations all day. And who doesn't shoot the sh*t at work? lol. Unless we're talking sweat shops in China somewhere, I doubt ANYone in any profession is hunched over a desk, mute for 12 hours straight.

With that being said, I see exactly where you're coming from with everything else. It makes the situation seem hopeless as hell though. If anything, its the 'You must be on call and ready to handle this situation no matter what is happening in your life' that gets to me the most. I could deal with that as a doctor, because at least I'm saving lives (or at least in a position that is the crux of a functioning, developed society), but if I'm being a slave to some client who just wants to have his ego stroked or some contract reanalyzed? That would suck huge -----. And I'll admit that hands down. That is uniquely different from the job I worked. Is this 0L grind all just one big facade (sp?)? Someone give me some hope!

For the record, I have been a Paralegal in Biglaw for a year, and I have had several weeks of those 12-hour days that you are talking about. We were under some crazy discovery deadlines, and it was on 10 all day. No one said shit. No one went to lunch. No one looked up from their work from 7 am to 7 pm essentially. These weeks were not the norm, but they did happen regularly, and I didn't even have the displeasure of working during a Trial, which I hear can be much, much worse. Again, I am not an attorney yet, but I can say that the BigLaw environment definitely entails those kinds of days even for Paralegals.

I can say that the Associates that I work with seem happy, well-adjusted, and seem to take at least a few days off here and there in addition to not being forced to work too much on the weekends. They do work a lot, but according to everything I've seen and heard from Associates, weeks are typically in the 50-60 hour range. Keep in mind this is in Litigation, but I do work at a V10 firm. Take my perspective for what it's worth, but my bet is that the QOL of an Associate is somewhere in between the worst-of-the-worst horror stories that you hear on TLS and a normal desk job.

[BigZuck]

IF ONLY Desert Fox had worked a big boy job before law school, maybe then TLS wouldn't be such a depressing place

AMIRITE 0Ls????

[Johann]

I unloaded UPS trailers in 100+ with humidity. I pulled all nighters in law school routinely working 30 hour weeks and full time classes. I also pull all nighters now in biglaw. The amount of work isn't even the bad part of this job. Here are the real negatives:

1) Your job is always subject to the economy and because you work for a partnership that is not that great at planning and business forecasting, you are almost always leveraged and borderline overstaffed; the firm makes cuts the second things go south. For many, probably most, biglaw will be the highest earning job they ever have as a lawyer and they will take a paycut when they exit. You get skills in a very specialized niche, and if that dries up, you are out of a career.

2) You never know what is in store for you for the next week, month or soemtimes even day. You cannot plan a vacation because you just don't know what matters will be hot then, so worst case (1) your partner makes you cancel the vacation or (2) you have to bill 10+ hour days on vacation. I haven't had dinner with my SO on a weekday but maybe 5 times since Jan 1, 2016.

3) The partners that stick around through all of this are crazy workaholics and borderline sociopaths because only people who value work over their own families survive to that level. You will get emails (and sometimes phone calls from boomers) at 1 am, 7 am, 4am when they are travelling international etc. When you are billing 2200, they really want 2400. When you are billing 2400, they want more articles and speeches or business development (non-billable work that does not count). When you are billing 70 hour weeks, they want you in the office at 9 am rather than 9:30-1:00 am. It's always something.

4) Because you are working on bet the company litigation or humongous deals, you are always doing assignments that are for sure within your realm of doable. There are no challenges. If you are being challenged, it means you're on the verge of being pushed out because what you are doing is always something that you should never fuck up. YOu only get assigned layups. You aren't intellectually stimulated or challenged and feel like you are regressing or progressing slower than you should.

[zot1]

IF ONLY Desert Fox had worked a big boy job before law school, maybe then TLS wouldn't be such a depressing place

AMIRITE 0Ls????

[Nebby]

This thread happens what, every 4 months?

[rpupkin]

This thread happens what, every 4 months?

Indeed. It always has the same formulaic characters:

1. 0L who did manual labor

2. Mod who admonishes 0L for posting in employment forum

3. DF lamenting choice to become lawyer.

4. Paralegal who claims that the lawyers at his or her firm like their jobs and don't work that hard.

I feel like we need some variety. Mods: Next time, can we combine the Manual Laborer/Paralegal 0L into a single character who--after making a few posts--tragically dies in a bizarre gardening accident?

[Desert Fox]

I'm drunk u cunts. Fight me on xbl

[zot1]

I'm drunk u cunts. Fight me on xbl

BigLaw is good for the people! It's better than being a Titanic coal worker!

[smaug]

i'm offended that you made this thread and didn't trust me when i told you this in another thread.

[Alive97]

bigyard to 190

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I'm a litigation associate at NYC V10 (also only 8 months in so take this with a grain of salt):
-if you enjoy legal work, there are a very limited number of people who do and who are good at it. Of course you could be fired (and likely will be before year 6/7 or so) but in the short term you are relatively valuable.
-lots of people psyche themselves out about stuff like font or formatting. Yes, some attorneys care about this but many don't. A lot of the stress in this job is self-imposed (people freaking out at themselves for leaving the office at 730pm when they don't have work and no reason to expect a call)
-yes you will be in the office 11-13 hours a day. Don't pursue this job if you can't handle that and in addition working 0-15 hrs per weekend depending on work load
-you need to be very focused and deliver accurate work product on time that is developed enough that someone can cut and paste into a brief

[asdfdfdfadfas]

I unloaded UPS trailers in 100+ with humidity. I pulled all nighters in law school routinely working 30 hour weeks and full time classes. I also pull all nighters now in biglaw. The amount of work isn't even the bad part of this job. Here are the real negatives:

1) Your job is always subject to the economy and because you work for a partnership that is not that great at planning and business forecasting, you are almost always leveraged and borderline overstaffed; the firm makes cuts the second things go south. For many, probably most, biglaw will be the highest earning job they ever have as a lawyer and they will take a paycut when they exit. You get skills in a very specialized niche, and if that dries up, you are out of a career.

2) You never know what is in store for you for the next week, month or soemtimes even day. You cannot plan a vacation because you just don't know what matters will be hot then, so worst case (1) your partner makes you cancel the vacation or (2) you have to bill 10+ hour days on vacation. I haven't had dinner with my SO on a weekday but maybe 5 times since Jan 1, 2016.

3) The partners that stick around through all of this are crazy workaholics and borderline sociopaths because only people who value work over their own families survive to that level. You will get emails (and sometimes phone calls from boomers) at 1 am, 7 am, 4am when they are travelling international etc. When you are billing 2200, they really want 2400. When you are billing 2400, they want more articles and speeches or business development (non-billable work that does not count). When you are billing 70 hour weeks, they want you in the office at 9 am rather than 9:30-1:00 am. It's always something.

4) Because you are working on bet the company litigation or humongous deals, you are always doing assignments that are for sure within your realm of doable. There are no challenges. If you are being challenged, it means you're on the verge of being pushed out because what you are doing is always something that you should never fuck up. YOu only get assigned layups. You aren't intellectually stimulated or challenged and feel like you are regressing or progressing slower than you should.

Do you have any satisfaction in the fact that you are at least making good money? Does all of this cause tension with your SO or is she understanding?

And you don't quit because the exit options are bad, correct?

Thanks for posting.

[smaug]

I'm a litigation associate at NYC V10 (also only 8 months in so take this with a grain of salt):
-if you enjoy legal work, there are a very limited number of people who do and who are good at it. Of course you could be fired (and likely will be before year 6/7 or so) but in the short term you are relatively valuable.
-lots of people psyche themselves out about stuff like font or formatting. Yes, some attorneys care about this but many don't. A lot of the stress in this job is self-imposed (people freaking out at themselves for leaving the office at 730pm when they don't have work and no reason to expect a call)
-yes you will be in the office 11-13 hours a day. Don't pursue this job if you can't handle that and in addition working 0-15 hrs per weekend depending on work load
-you need to be very focused and deliver accurate work product on time that is developed enough that someone can cut and paste into a brief

lmao

[smaug]

just be a star junior like mr hutz and bill 3k a year, kids

[rpupkin]

just be a star junior like mr hutz and bill 3k a year, kids

I would, but I don't enjoy legal work and I'm not good at it.

[Aeon]

Unless we're talking sweat shops in China somewhere, I doubt ANYone in any profession is hunched over a desk, mute for 12 hours straight.

The overwhelming proportion of BigLaw work, especially as a junior associate, is exactly sitting hunched over your desk, alone, for countless hours a day.

Are you evaluated based on your own merit? Do you have to constantly talk to other people and beg other people for information on how to do your job? To be more specific how are you to learn your job typically in Biglaw? Is it using information that you covered in law school or do they hand you SOPS?

You mostly learn how to do your job on the job. Some of the things you learn in law school are useful, such as legal writing. If you've taken classes related to your practice area, those can be helpful too. But as a junior associate, the bulk of your work is relatively repetitive and not necessarily the most intellectually challenging. Lots of paperwork.

For example, if you're a bank regulatory lawyer, it's nice to know the regulatory structure that you might have learned in your Fin Reg class, but most of your work in practice will probably be reviewing and summarizing documents, drafting and revising disclosures, etc.

[Johann]

I unloaded UPS trailers in 100+ with humidity. I pulled all nighters in law school routinely working 30 hour weeks and full time classes. I also pull all nighters now in biglaw. The amount of work isn't even the bad part of this job. Here are the real negatives:

1) Your job is always subject to the economy and because you work for a partnership that is not that great at planning and business forecasting, you are almost always leveraged and borderline overstaffed; the firm makes cuts the second things go south. For many, probably most, biglaw will be the highest earning job they ever have as a lawyer and they will take a paycut when they exit. You get skills in a very specialized niche, and if that dries up, you are out of a career.

2) You never know what is in store for you for the next week, month or soemtimes even day. You cannot plan a vacation because you just don't know what matters will be hot then, so worst case (1) your partner makes you cancel the vacation or (2) you have to bill 10+ hour days on vacation. I haven't had dinner with my SO on a weekday but maybe 5 times since Jan 1, 2016.

3) The partners that stick around through all of this are crazy workaholics and borderline sociopaths because only people who value work over their own families survive to that level. You will get emails (and sometimes phone calls from boomers) at 1 am, 7 am, 4am when they are travelling international etc. When you are billing 2200, they really want 2400. When you are billing 2400, they want more articles and speeches or business development (non-billable work that does not count). When you are billing 70 hour weeks, they want you in the office at 9 am rather than 9:30-1:00 am. It's always something.

4) Because you are working on bet the company litigation or humongous deals, you are always doing assignments that are for sure within your realm of doable. There are no challenges. If you are being challenged, it means you're on the verge of being pushed out because what you are doing is always something that you should never fuck up. YOu only get assigned layups. You aren't intellectually stimulated or challenged and feel like you are regressing or progressing slower than you should.

Do you have any satisfaction in the fact that you are at least making good money? Does all of this cause tension with your SO or is she understanding?

And you don't quit because the exit options are bad, correct?

Thanks for posting.

of course i have satisfaction in the money. its the only satisfaction in my life that keeps me going. i enjoy being able to spend stupid amounts of money on some things and make financially unwise decisions just to flaunt a little bit of the hellhole the rest of my life is.
there is some tension with my SO. i have forgotten 2 (out of 2) anniversaries which led to pretty big fights. she has called me an asshole and cried about the job changing me. overall, things are usually okay because i rarely see her - pretty much only on vacations and weekends.
i have applied for other jobs. i dont quit because im not really that marketable right now. i also dont quit because i want to bankroll a couple of years of money to do something way way slower paced and ill probably need like 300k cash to do that.

[starsofthelidd]

what's always been interesting to me is that the biglawyers i talk to IRL have generally good things to say about their jobs. the most recent one echoed what i'd heard elsewhere: "yeah sometimes it gets crazy and there's some really late nights once if we're working on something big, but generally i'm in by 8:30, out by 6:30." this from a skadden associate, which i had understood to be one of the more demanding firms.

of course this is anecdotal and doesn't mean anything (we're talking maybe 10 associates over the last 10 or so years), but as a result of reading TLS for so long, it's very hard for me not to be like "come on. be honest." when i hear that kind of thing.

[Johann]

what's always been interesting to me is that the biglawyers i talk to IRL have generally good things to say about their jobs. the most recent one echoed what i'd heard elsewhere: "yeah sometimes it gets crazy and there's some really late nights once if we're working on something big, but generally i'm in by 8:30, out by 6:30." this from a skadden associate, which i had understood to be one of the more demanding firms.

of course this is anecdotal and doesn't mean anything (we're talking maybe 10 associates over the last 10 or so years), but as a result of reading TLS for so long, it's very hard for me not to be like "come on. be honest." when i hear that kind of thing.

I tell people in real life it's not that bad. It's depressing as hell to set a conversational tone like that in person.

[MyNameIsntJames]

i'm offended that you made this thread and didn't trust me when i told you this in another thread.

Haha, I trust you my friend! But I couldn't let your opinion be the end all be all on the issue. You wouldn't be a very good sample size for me. I'm using these opinions in addition to yours as well.

[belmondo]

I'm a big law associate and I'll say that I think the 0L is basically right. To be clear I work at a non-NYC V50 firm that I chose in large part because it was more reasonable on hours (1900-2200 is the range) than all those plum NYC jobs that destroy your life. Yes, it's busy and sometimes stressful. Yes, partners email you at random times. Yes you will sometimes miss social engagements. Yes, the work is tedious and often soul crushing depending on your political leanings. But I have in no way found it to be the gaping hellhole that people describe. You go in for a few years, you make a very good living, and then you can usually find at least some kind of decent upper middle class to upper class job that will still earn you over 100k. I would certainly not go back to the many tedious, minimum wage jobs that I worked before I got to law school. And I think 0L is onto something - there are a lot of lawyers who went straight through from undergrad, have never held a real job, and then are shocked when a high paying, prestigious job is stressful. Newsflash - if you're in a competitive field, be it Silicon Valley, D.C., medical, banking, etc., you will work a lot of hours. Now, those jobs may be more "fulfilling" depending on your perspective, but the workload is not something crazily unique to the legal profession.

[zot1]

what's always been interesting to me is that the biglawyers i talk to IRL have generally good things to say about their jobs. the most recent one echoed what i'd heard elsewhere: "yeah sometimes it gets crazy and there's some really late nights once if we're working on something big, but generally i'm in by 8:30, out by 6:30." this from a skadden associate, which i had understood to be one of the more demanding firms.

of course this is anecdotal and doesn't mean anything (we're talking maybe 10 associates over the last 10 or so years), but as a result of reading TLS for so long, it's very hard for me not to be like "come on. be honest." when i hear that kind of thing.

Out by 6:30 doesn't mean done with work by 6:30...

[Aeon]

I'm a big law associate and I'll say that I think the 0L is basically right. To be clear I work at a non-NYC V50 firm that I chose in large part because it was more reasonable on hours (1900-2200 is the range) than all those plum NYC jobs that destroy your life. Yes, it's busy and sometimes stressful. Yes, partners email you at random times. Yes you will sometimes miss social engagements. Yes, the work is tedious and often soul crushing depending on your political leanings. But I have in no way found it to be the gaping hellhole that people describe. You go in for a few years, you make a very good living, and then you can usually find at least some kind of decent upper middle class to upper class job that will still earn you over 100k. I would certainly not go back to the many tedious, minimum wage jobs that I worked before I got to law school. And I think 0L is onto something - there are a lot of lawyers who went straight through from undergrad, have never held a real job, and then are shocked when a high paying, prestigious job is stressful. Newsflash - if you're in a competitive field, be it Silicon Valley, D.C., medical, banking, etc., you will work a lot of hours. Now, those jobs may be more "fulfilling" depending on your perspective, but the workload is not something crazily unique to the legal profession.

There are, no doubt, people who do flourish in the BigLaw setting, but it is hard to discount the majority of people who do not. A lot also depends on your particular firm and market, so experiences can and do vary a great deal. Are you a first-year?

[DELG]

The money isn't actually that good. Most of us have terrible loans and have to live in big cities close to the office, plus pay a lot of convenience tax.

[1styearlateral]

The money isn't actually that good. Most of us have terrible loans and have to live in big cities close to the office, plus pay a lot of convenience tax.

With PAYE, you can still rake in the cash and save even with loans over $150k. Plus, you won't have to worry about that huge tax bomb at the end of your repayment term.

But yeah, I agree, the COL is so high in the larger markets... the base salary needs to increase ASAP to keep up.