Understanding Federal Hiring Forum

[RSN]

The ex-biglaw were from East Coast T14s. However, there were quite a few Vermont and Lewis & Clark grads, but they were hired entry-level or lateralled from nonbiglaw

Huh, so I guess it is a real thing for some people. Just seems counterintuitive that there's this funny little sub-area where the traditional admissions/choosing a school wisdom doesn't apply, and it's more like a Master's program where you pick a school based on the reputation of the specialty you want.

[Nebby]

The ex-biglaw were from East Coast T14s. However, there were quite a few Vermont and Lewis & Clark grads, but they were hired entry-level or lateralled from nonbiglaw

Huh, so I guess it is a real thing for some people. Just seems counterintuitive that there's this funny little sub-area where the traditional admissions/choosing a school wisdom doesn't apply, and it's more like a Master's program where you pick a school based on the reputation of the specialty you want.

It still applies. For the few envt attorneys from Vermont law school, there's several unemployed ones

If you want environmental law, I tell people specialty rankings don't matter. The envt PI gig I got doesn't hire outside of the T14, and they mostly hire from 3 schools (NU, MU, And Chi). School still matters greatly

[RSN]

The ex-biglaw were from East Coast T14s. However, there were quite a few Vermont and Lewis & Clark grads, but they were hired entry-level or lateralled from nonbiglaw

Huh, so I guess it is a real thing for some people. Just seems counterintuitive that there's this funny little sub-area where the traditional admissions/choosing a school wisdom doesn't apply, and it's more like a Master's program where you pick a school based on the reputation of the specialty you want.

It still applies. For the few envt attorneys from Vermont law school, there's several unemployed ones

If you want environmental law, I tell people specialty rankings don't matter. The envt PI gig I got doesn't hire outside of the T14, and they mostly hire from 3 schools (NU, MU, And Chi). School still matters greatly

Right, of course, the median kids from Vermont aren't getting EPA jobs, or probably any job, just interesting those schools retain some sort of cachet in the field, at least for their top handful of grads.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yeah, my sense is that there are a disproportionate number of Vermont grads in environmental law. But I think a lot is self-selection based on qualifications people bring to law school - if you choose Vermont because you're really into environmental law, you may already have relevant qualifications that will help you get a job.

[globetrotter659]

Federal hiring really differs by employer. As someone who has gone through the process, here's a breakdown.

1. DOJ. Hiring and qualifications differ by component. EOIR is very different from Civil Rights or Appellate. The sentiment that Civil Rights really cares about credentials seems to be true but I only know from second hand experience. Grades are more important than school prestige. A component like Commercial Litigation wants practical experience like moot court, mock trial, or clinics. Clerkships look great but people get hired straight through too. The people I know who were hired straight out of law school seem to have all been Order of the Coif or similar credentials. DOJ is out of the hiring freeze so they have been taking a lot of laterals. I think Commercial Litigation hired 40 something attorneys over the last year. The trick there is knowing when the component is hiring. Helps to have an insider.

2. Large federal agencies. These are the agencies with honors programs (DOL, HUD, DHS, SEC, FCC, CFPB, etc). Class size varies from 4 for DHS to 10 or so for HUD. That is ten positions for the entire country. This is why everyone says Big Fed is a crapshoot. Work differs from regional offices to HQ. Regional offices are much more litigation focused whereas HQ is policy and regulations. Keep in mind that most federal agencies (exceptions are DOL and FCC) do not have independent litigating authority. This means that as a litigator for HUD, you'll always be second chair to someone from DOJ. For hiring, experience seems to matter more than grades. Furthermore significant general federal government experience seems to trump having done a summer internship with the agency (someone with a few years of experience working/interning in DC prior to law school will be more competitive than someone who only did a summer internship with the agency). The most important thing for these jobs is showing a commitment to government service and an understanding of the agency. A 2L summer internship does not guarantee employment after graduation. Honors programs are usually about 2 years. Whether you convert to a "permanent" position after the program depends on the agency. Most convert you so long as you pass the bar and have a good performance evaluation. A few, such as DHS, require you to apply for open positions within the agency after the two years; however, your experience as an honors attorney will give you preferential hiring.

3. Small federal agencies. These don't really hire straight out of law school (and your average law student probably has never heard of them). I know some people who got jobs here straight out of clerkships. Many of these agencies do have summer internship programs. Might be a good 1L summer gig to figure out if you like the area of law and build those connections if you decide to lateral in the future.

4. Unicorns. State Department (L) and CIA come to mind. You shouldn't go to law school with the goal to work for the State Department's legal office (L) straight out of law school. Extremely competitive. State has a 2L summer program designed to be split with a firm SA. Contrary to popular belief, you do not need to go to Yale or Harvard to get a job at L. CIA has a small honors program although most of its honors hiring seems to be filled through its 2L paid program. Being the CIA, there's little information out there so it is hard to gauge competitiveness. Military background seems to be a plus (but this is true throughout the federal government since vets get preference). The bulk of the entry level work is not sexy counterterrorism work or international law. Instead, it's a lot of government contracts, employment law, and litigation (think trespass cases)--basically as if you were the general counsel for a large corporation.

[RSN]

That's a fantastic rundown, thanks!