does it matter what law achool you go to, if you arent looking to make a ton of money? Forum

[BigZuck]

Maybe Johann's banging a career services employee or two. That'd give him access to a lot of data points.

He says things so declaratively and as if he is coming from a position of authority when really he's just pulling things out of his butt and spewing it all over the on topics. It wouldn't be a big deal if some people (who maybe should know better I guess but lots of times they are newbies) didn't take him seriously.

I enjoy reading about his struggles with addiction and mental illness in the lounge but deliberately and continuously trying to mislead people in the on topics is kinda a bad person move IMO.

[Johann]

Maybe Johann's banging a career services employee or two. That'd give him access to a lot of data points.

He says things so declaratively and as if he is coming from a position of authority when really he's just pulling things out of his butt and spewing it all over the on topics. It wouldn't be a big deal if some people (who maybe should know better I guess but lots of times they are newbies) didn't take him seriously.

I enjoy reading about his struggles with addiction and mental illness in the lounge but deliberately and continuously trying to mislead people in the on topics is kinda a bad person move IMO.

wtf do you think happens after people graduate from a TTT? they just become homeless and live on food stamps? what is your opinion based on?

[TLSModBot]

Maybe Johann's banging a career services employee or two. That'd give him access to a lot of data points.

He says things so declaratively and as if he is coming from a position of authority when really he's just pulling things out of his butt and spewing it all over the on topics. It wouldn't be a big deal if some people (who maybe should know better I guess but lots of times they are newbies) didn't take him seriously.

I enjoy reading about his struggles with addiction and mental illness in the lounge but deliberately and continuously trying to mislead people in the on topics is kinda a bad person move IMO.

wtf do you think happens after people graduate from a TTT? they just become homeless and live on food stamps? what is your opinion based on?

A. no one's getting that extreme, Johann and B. NALP employment data is pretty on point for showing a shitload of people who get JD's don't end up in a job that required one (making the investment of tuition and 3 years of earning potential kind of wasted in a lot of cases).

ETA: and C. I'm pretty sure what they're not all doing is checking in with good ole Johann to help bolster his THOUSANDS of data points. I would've believed "banging CS people" btw

[BigZuck]

Maybe Johann's banging a career services employee or two. That'd give him access to a lot of data points.

He says things so declaratively and as if he is coming from a position of authority when really he's just pulling things out of his butt and spewing it all over the on topics. It wouldn't be a big deal if some people (who maybe should know better I guess but lots of times they are newbies) didn't take him seriously.

I enjoy reading about his struggles with addiction and mental illness in the lounge but deliberately and continuously trying to mislead people in the on topics is kinda a bad person move IMO.

wtf do you think happens after people graduate from a TTT? they just become homeless and live on food stamps? what is your opinion based on?

I think a small amount succeed wildly, probably a decent chunk does ok after they put in the work, and a decent chunk ends up kinda screwed by debt and not being able to get the job they want. That's mostly based on talking to lawyers and doing research online.

Good hyperbole though

My issue is with you lying and deliberately misleading people, not the idea that it is literally possible to succeed as a TTT grad. I don't neccessarily think you should be nuked because you're entertaining when you're laying down pony tips in the gambling thread and HOT SPORTS TAKES in the sports threads but what you do in the on topics is pretty scummy IMO and it's really baffling that it's tolerated by the mods and that you think it's ok to treat people that way.

Whatever, it is what it is I guess and obviously people complaining about you never gets anything accomplished so I'll stop.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I didn't go to a TTT, but from my low-T (heh), I think Johann's right in that most people do end up with jobs. The thing is that he's talking about a really broad swath of jobs, and most people here aren't going to think that a $45k job doing paralegal-like stuff is worth going to law school for, which is fine. I'm sure plenty end up in law-preferred or law-adjacent stuff, or stuff unrelated to law at all, but people get jobs, even if outside the 9 months post-grad that the ABA measures. I work with plenty of people who went to TTT schools (they got state/local jobs relevant to what they do now, and worked there way into the office). I work across from tons of people who went to TTT schools. I've never worked in NYC biglaw obviously, but I feel like it's this weird bubble that doesn't really represent the vast majority of lawyers' lives. Johann's probably a little over-optimistic because people don't like to advertise when things are going badly, but I don't think he's completely insane, either. He's not saying they all got the jobs they wanted/went to law school for, after all.

Do I think going to a TTT is a good investment? Probably not, for most people who show up here, who want biglaw or prestigious PI or don't want to sink 3 years + $$ into a $45k job (which is totally reasonable). And I've already said I disagree with Johann that PAYE makes debt at a TTT a perfectly reasonable move. But I don't think Johann is crazy in what he says about TTT grads. Once you get outside biglaw/fedclerk, academia, and maybe some fedgov gigs, pedigree isn't as big a thing as people assume it is. (But it's almost never going to hurt you, which is why pedigree is worth going for.)

[Johann]

To Capitol:
lots of people that go to TTTs never want to be a lawyer once they get there and learn what it entails. they get offered jobs at banks/major corps and take them. some work in politics. theres not really a shortage of 40/45k entry level attorney positions ITE today. im not saying it will be like that forever, but today, that's the case.

to Zuck: im not lying and definitely not misleading. the only reason i post in these threads is because i feel obligated to correct the other misinformation from people who have no clue what really goes on at a TTT. i think theres just a huge disconnect because when you hear me say that an overwhelming majority of people from TTTs that want to become lawyers, can become "lawyers" you see that as a positive outcome. i see it as quite the opposite. being a lawyer sucks and working for 45k a year for psycho bosses with psycho opposing counsels is a terrible career - hence why people try to exit the career as soon as the option is viable and why many TTT students #1 goal is to never work a day in their life as a lawyer.

TLS narrative that you can't become a lawyer from a TTT is false - thousands of people disprove this all the time. The accurate narrative is that thousands of people think they want to be a lawyer without knowing what the profession entails and as soon as they see that the work is repetitive, monotonous, and not challenging because you are mainly sitting in front of a computer replacing a couple words on a boilerplate document for hours a day while your boss raises his voice and co counsel complains or whines or never answers your calls for a salary less than a corporate cog, yeah half the people decide law sucks and is not for them. Which is what will likely happen to OP.

[Johann]

Maybe Johann's banging a career services employee or two. That'd give him access to a lot of data points.

He says things so declaratively and as if he is coming from a position of authority when really he's just pulling things out of his butt and spewing it all over the on topics. It wouldn't be a big deal if some people (who maybe should know better I guess but lots of times they are newbies) didn't take him seriously.

I enjoy reading about his struggles with addiction and mental illness in the lounge but deliberately and continuously trying to mislead people in the on topics is kinda a bad person move IMO.

wtf do you think happens after people graduate from a TTT? they just become homeless and live on food stamps? what is your opinion based on?

I think a small amount succeed wildly, probably a decent chunk does ok after they put in the work, and a decent chunk ends up kinda screwed by debt and not being able to get the job they want. That's mostly based on talking to lawyers and doing research online.

Good hyperbole though

My issue is with you lying and deliberately misleading people, not the idea that it is literally possible to succeed as a TTT grad. I don't neccessarily think you should be nuked because you're entertaining when you're laying down pony tips in the gambling thread and HOT SPORTS TAKES in the sports threads but what you do in the on topics is pretty scummy IMO and it's really baffling that it's tolerated by the mods and that you think it's ok to treat people that way.

Whatever, it is what it is I guess and obviously people complaining about you never gets anything accomplished so I'll stop.

Nobody who actually knows about TTTs complains about me. I actually try to avoid the on topics and only show up when I think TLS is giving way bad information. So just give better more accurate advise in the future and I wont have to respond.

[jrass]

You also can't use job outcomes as a definitive measure of whether a particular student's outcome is school related. Right off the bat, you're comparing schools where 98% pass the bar on the first try to schools where 58% do. Bar passage is generally a result of student quality, not school quality. So right out of the gate you're comparing one school to another where 40% are hugely disadvantaged due to factors independent of prestige or academic quality. I'm not saying the general advice is bad. It's probably good advice, but it's surprising how often facts like the one I bring up here are ignored.

[wiz]

Maybe Johann's banging a career services employee or two. That'd give him access to a lot of data points.

He says things so declaratively and as if he is coming from a position of authority when really he's just pulling things out of his butt and spewing it all over the on topics. It wouldn't be a big deal if some people (who maybe should know better I guess but lots of times they are newbies) didn't take him seriously.

I enjoy reading about his struggles with addiction and mental illness in the lounge but deliberately and continuously trying to mislead people in the on topics is kinda a bad person move IMO.

wtf do you think happens after people graduate from a TTT? they just become homeless and live on food stamps? what is your opinion based on?

I think a small amount succeed wildly, probably a decent chunk does ok after they put in the work, and a decent chunk ends up kinda screwed by debt and not being able to get the job they want. That's mostly based on talking to lawyers and doing research online.

Good hyperbole though

My issue is with you lying and deliberately misleading people, not the idea that it is literally possible to succeed as a TTT grad. I don't neccessarily think you should be nuked because you're entertaining when you're laying down pony tips in the gambling thread and HOT SPORTS TAKES in the sports threads but what you do in the on topics is pretty scummy IMO and it's really baffling that it's tolerated by the mods and that you think it's ok to treat people that way.

Whatever, it is what it is I guess and obviously people complaining about you never gets anything accomplished so I'll stop.

I get that your whole shtick is to shoot down everything you disagree with as ANECDOTAL evidence, but crying for someone to be banned because they have a different perspective or have a non-mainstream idea that counters TLS gospel is stupid as fuck.

The OP asked a pretty narrow question about whether prestige matters if you're not chasing models and bottles. I don't think it's unreasonable to answer, no, it doesn't matter nearly as much as it would if you had typical TLS biglaw goals, but you should also know that it's probably not an ideal outcome to be working in a high-stress legal environment for like 50k.

[BigZuck]

Maybe Johann's banging a career services employee or two. That'd give him access to a lot of data points.

He says things so declaratively and as if he is coming from a position of authority when really he's just pulling things out of his butt and spewing it all over the on topics. It wouldn't be a big deal if some people (who maybe should know better I guess but lots of times they are newbies) didn't take him seriously.

I enjoy reading about his struggles with addiction and mental illness in the lounge but deliberately and continuously trying to mislead people in the on topics is kinda a bad person move IMO.

wtf do you think happens after people graduate from a TTT? they just become homeless and live on food stamps? what is your opinion based on?

I think a small amount succeed wildly, probably a decent chunk does ok after they put in the work, and a decent chunk ends up kinda screwed by debt and not being able to get the job they want. That's mostly based on talking to lawyers and doing research online.

Good hyperbole though

My issue is with you lying and deliberately misleading people, not the idea that it is literally possible to succeed as a TTT grad. I don't neccessarily think you should be nuked because you're entertaining when you're laying down pony tips in the gambling thread and HOT SPORTS TAKES in the sports threads but what you do in the on topics is pretty scummy IMO and it's really baffling that it's tolerated by the mods and that you think it's ok to treat people that way.

Whatever, it is what it is I guess and obviously people complaining about you never gets anything accomplished so I'll stop.

I get that your whole shtick is to shoot down everything you disagree with as ANECDOTAL evidence, but crying for someone to be banned because they have a different perspective or have a non-mainstream idea that counters TLS gospel is stupid as fuck.

The OP asked a pretty narrow question about whether prestige matters if you're not chasing models and bottles. I don't think it's unreasonable to answer, no, it doesn't matter nearly as much as it would if you had typical TLS biglaw goals, but you should also know that it's probably not an ideal outcome to be working in a high-stress legal environment for like 50k.

I think I'm supposed to say your schtick is all about WHITE KNIGHTING fellow sports thread gambling degens but I'm not super sure what to do here

Look, I get that your whole schtick is to ragely wiz all over the on topics from time to time so I'll cut you a little slack here. But this is dumb. My issue is with Huey deliberately lying to mislead people, not that he said TTT grads can enjoy success. He knows over a thousand? By and large they are fine? Come on, that's total garbage. I'm not the only one to complain about the crap he spews all over the on topics you dum dum.

In a way I think what he says about anything involving money is way worse because it's just so over the top deranged. But, I would expect (or at least hope?) that no one would take some randos advice when it comes to what to do with their 401K or their student loans. The stuff he does to mislead kids who are trying to choose a law school doesn't always quite display the same level of mental illness. But in his FERVOR for sounding like an authority figure who TOTES KNOWS the secret that the hive has overlooked this whole time in every single post, advice that might be well meaning (and maybe even correct? Although I'm not sure I'm ready to go that far) at its core just goes way off the rails.

"Huh, there's all this salary info available on new grads, and people generally tell me that attending a TTT is a bad idea. But this guy went to a TTT. He knows a thousand similarly situated people intimately, and they're all fine! Screw it, where do I sign up?"

Fine Wiz, you've broken me down. I shouldn't care that he deliberately lies to mislead people. You're right, I'm wrong, I won't say anything too or about Huey ever again.

[wiz]

Maybe Johann's banging a career services employee or two. That'd give him access to a lot of data points.

He says things so declaratively and as if he is coming from a position of authority when really he's just pulling things out of his butt and spewing it all over the on topics. It wouldn't be a big deal if some people (who maybe should know better I guess but lots of times they are newbies) didn't take him seriously.

I enjoy reading about his struggles with addiction and mental illness in the lounge but deliberately and continuously trying to mislead people in the on topics is kinda a bad person move IMO.

wtf do you think happens after people graduate from a TTT? they just become homeless and live on food stamps? what is your opinion based on?

I think a small amount succeed wildly, probably a decent chunk does ok after they put in the work, and a decent chunk ends up kinda screwed by debt and not being able to get the job they want. That's mostly based on talking to lawyers and doing research online.

Good hyperbole though

My issue is with you lying and deliberately misleading people, not the idea that it is literally possible to succeed as a TTT grad. I don't neccessarily think you should be nuked because you're entertaining when you're laying down pony tips in the gambling thread and HOT SPORTS TAKES in the sports threads but what you do in the on topics is pretty scummy IMO and it's really baffling that it's tolerated by the mods and that you think it's ok to treat people that way.

Whatever, it is what it is I guess and obviously people complaining about you never gets anything accomplished so I'll stop.

I get that your whole shtick is to shoot down everything you disagree with as ANECDOTAL evidence, but crying for someone to be banned because they have a different perspective or have a non-mainstream idea that counters TLS gospel is stupid as fuck.

The OP asked a pretty narrow question about whether prestige matters if you're not chasing models and bottles. I don't think it's unreasonable to answer, no, it doesn't matter nearly as much as it would if you had typical TLS biglaw goals, but you should also know that it's probably not an ideal outcome to be working in a high-stress legal environment for like 50k.

I think I'm supposed to say your schtick is all about WHITE KNIGHTING fellow sports thread gambling degens but I'm not super sure what to do here

Look, I get that your whole schtick is to ragely wiz all over the on topics from time to time so I'll cut you a little slack here. But this is dumb. My issue is with Huey deliberately lying to mislead people, not that he said TTT grads can enjoy success. He knows over a thousand? By and large they are fine? Come on, that's total garbage. I'm not the only one to complain about the crap he spews all over the on topics you dum dum.

In a way I think what he says about anything involving money is way worse because it's just so over the top deranged. But, I would expect (or at least hope?) that no one would take some randos advice when it comes to what to do with their 401K or their student loans. The stuff he does to mislead kids who are trying to choose a law school doesn't always quite display the same level of mental illness. But in his FERVOR for sounding like an authority figure who TOTES KNOWS the secret that the hive has overlooked this whole time in every single post, advice that might be well meaning (and maybe even correct? Although I'm not sure I'm ready to go that far) at its core just goes way off the rails.

"Huh, there's all this salary info available on new grads, and people generally tell me that attending a TTT is a bad idea. But this guy went to a TTT. He knows a thousand similarly situated people intimately, and they're all fine! Screw it, where do I sign up?"

Fine Wiz, you've broken me down. I shouldn't care that he deliberately lies to mislead people. You're right, I'm wrong, I won't say anything too or about Huey ever again.

Ragely wiz over the on topics? You post like you’re constantly strung out on a triple dose of adderall. I understand that you get off on being a hall monitor in the on topics, but you need to calm down man.

I’ve seen you spew the same APPEAL TO AUTHORITY garbage and shout people down when they try to offer solid inside info on the law firms they work at (or know well) because they can’t possibly have useful knowledge since they haven’t been practicing for 5 years and aren’t hiring partners or whatever ridiculous criteria your 3L brain conjures up (their words on culture and practice groups are ANECDOTAL, so don’t listen to randoms on the internet unless those randoms are you).

You should probs just stick to linking people to mylsn instead of blowing up at someone who you perceive as mentally ill. You literally just told someone on a full ride to drop out, fullstop, because they had a bad first semester. So maybe the one trying to beat his chest with authoritative FERVOR to the tune of 10k on topic posts is you?

Please show me all these instances where the gambling degenerate has deliberately LIED to the denizens of TLS. If you’re talking about student loans, I think there’s an interesting argument to be had on PAYE vs. ReFi vs. traditional repayment, and I don’t see how different perspectives detract from the site to the point that some dude you disagree with should be summarily banned. After getting some advice here, people can go off and do their own due diligence since they have a better handle on their individual risk tolerance.

You do kinda write like a deranged lunatic, though, so maybe take a deep breath and then get back to me with the extensive library of scummy posts you’ve flagged.

[wiz]

Fwiw, I agree with basically everything Nony just wrote. Her perspective on what johann is saying seems a little more, well, even-keeled than yours.

[Tiago Splitter]

I normally just agree with everything wiz and bigzuck and even in many cases Johann say so this is a tough one for me. But I'll stick with my initial inclination and say that most people who say they "don't want biglaw" or "aren't looking to make a ton of money" are simply looking for any excuse not to retake the LSAT and put themselves in the best position possible from day one. Get a strong LSAT score, get a clearer idea of your career goals and figure things out from there. Chances are if you do those things you'll be ok.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I normally just agree with everything wiz and bigzuck and even in many cases Johann say so this is a tough one for me. But I'll stick with my initial inclination and say that most people who say they "don't want biglaw" or "aren't looking to make a ton of money" are simply looking for any excuse not to retake the LSAT and put themselves in the best position possible from day one. Get a strong LSAT score, get a clearer idea of your career goals and figure things out from there. Chances are if you do those things you'll be ok.

I think this is also often true. People who get good grades 1L suddenly start asking about biglaw chances. Which is only human, and really normal given that OCI/biglaw is often the path of least resistance, but yeah, people often say such things without knowing what they're really going to want to do. (Which is also kind of hard to figure out for lots of people.)

[BigZuck]

I normally just agree with everything wiz and bigzuck and even in many cases Johann say so this is a tough one for me. But I'll stick with my initial inclination and say that most people who say they "don't want biglaw" or "aren't looking to make a ton of money" are simply looking for any excuse not to retake the LSAT and put themselves in the best position possible from day one. Get a strong LSAT score, get a clearer idea of your career goals and figure things out from there. Chances are if you do those things you'll be ok.

Yeah, I agree. Maybe reading too much TLS has made me that cynical but I almost always read "Don't care about money/Just wanna be a lawyer" type posts as "I don't want to retake/Please don't tell me to retake." It's probably not fair and I'm sure it's not true of everyone but it sure feels like it sometimes.

I don't think there's anything at all wrong with going to a low ranked school if you know what you want to do and the school can get you that job (at an appropriate cost). But if you're uncertain about what you want to do then I think you should either not go (at least not until you have a good idea of what you want to do) or max the hell out of your opportunities (which almost always means squeezing all your potential out of the LSAT).

[mt2165]

Ok I get what's being said here and I see Johannes/Nony's point about prestige mattering significantly less for many (most?) legal jobs. But we know that at many TTTs and TTTTs that the percentage of graduates who have any type of legal, full-time job nine months after graduation is like 40-60%. If you don't care about the quality of the legal job at all, you still have a coin's flip at getting one at nine months after graduation. I admittedly don't know many TTT grads, but is the consensus that they all get something eventually? I guess if everything from contract basement attorney on up is ok, then yeah sure. But jfc if your goals are so low that that's an ok outcome, especially if you dont have any direct legal experience beforehand.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Ok I get what's being said here and I see Johannes/Nony's point about prestige mattering significantly less for many (most?) legal jobs. But we know that at many TTTs and TTTTs that the percentage of graduates who have any type of legal, full-time job nine months after graduation is like 40-60%. If you don't care about the quality of the legal job at all, you still have a coin's flip at getting one at nine months after graduation. I admittedly don't know many TTT grads, but is the consensus that they all get something eventually? I guess if everything from contract basement attorney on up is ok, then yeah sure. But jfc if your goals are so low that that's an ok outcome, especially if you dont have any direct legal experience beforehand.

I think more people get something eventually than people assume based on the 9-month numbers, based on my class's outcome (and I'm 2011 so we were pretty recession-screwed). I can't say it's absolutely everyone, and I can't say what they get is something they would have considered worth going to law school for when they signed up. And there are certainly people who get screwed over, and when that happens, it's terrible. But I don't think it's generally quite as life-ending as TLS assumes.

[Tiago Splitter]

Ok I get what's being said here and I see Johannes/Nony's point about prestige mattering significantly less for many (most?) legal jobs. But we know that at many TTTs and TTTTs that the percentage of graduates who have any type of legal, full-time job nine months after graduation is like 40-60%. If you don't care about the quality of the legal job at all, you still have a coin's flip at getting one at nine months after graduation. I admittedly don't know many TTT grads, but is the consensus that they all get something eventually? I guess if everything from contract basement attorney on up is ok, then yeah sure. But jfc if your goals are so low that that's an ok outcome, especially if you dont have any direct legal experience beforehand.

I think more people get something eventually than people assume based on the 9-month numbers, based on my class's outcome (and I'm 2011 so we were pretty recession-screwed). I can't say it's absolutely everyone, and I can't say what they get is something they would have considered worth going to law school for when they signed up. And there are certainly people who get screwed over, and when that happens, it's terrible. But I don't think it's generally quite as life-ending as TLS assumes.

I've always wondered why TTT deans who proclaim this don't just collect the data themselves and post it to their schools' website. It wouldn't even be ABA regulated so they could massage the numbers as much as necessary.

I also would say, and I think that this is what Johann was getting at, that if you are just gonna do some job that is quasi-JD advantage that takes you 11+ months (new ABA cutoff is 10 months from graduation) to land for 45k you probably shouldn't have gone to law school unless your job really seriously only could have been scored with a JD and is really, seriously what you came to law school to do. Just being "employed" after 10 months isn't impressive in any way.

[Johann]

cosigning nony for saying what i wanted to better than i did. its not pretty for lots and its a struggle but it almost always happens ime for people who continue to hustle. also, i lose sight of the big picture when i argue with zuck, but i would never say its a per se good idea to attend a TTT and certainly not unless all retakes are used and lots of LSAT study. its a buyer beware situation that can work out if someone understands they might be working for a 2 partner shitlaw firm that churns files and is not set on practicing a certain type of law.

one thing i probably also need to adjust for is that my TTT when i went in the recession had plenty of people with 162s. the people were decent interviewers and smart enough to adapt to situations. also a lot of people that were fluent in a second language. not nearly everyone had these credentials, but if schools are taking people with 142s that dont speak any other languages, i dont know - maybe they dont get attorney jobs ever.

[Tiago Splitter]

one thing i probably also need to adjust for is that my TTT when i went in the recession had plenty of people with 162s. the people were decent interviewers and smart enough to adapt to situations. also a lot of people that were fluent in a second language. not nearly everyone had these credentials, but if schools are taking people with 142s that dont speak any other languages, i dont know - maybe they dont get attorney jobs ever.

I guess the upside is that we've gone from 50k grads down to 35k or so. Still need another 10-20% off the top to make things make sense for entering students but there's a little more wiggle room in non-biglaw land.

[Johann]

Ok I get what's being said here and I see Johannes/Nony's point about prestige mattering significantly less for many (most?) legal jobs. But we know that at many TTTs and TTTTs that the percentage of graduates who have any type of legal, full-time job nine months after graduation is like 40-60%. If you don't care about the quality of the legal job at all, you still have a coin's flip at getting one at nine months after graduation. I admittedly don't know many TTT grads, but is the consensus that they all get something eventually? I guess if everything from contract basement attorney on up is ok, then yeah sure. But jfc if your goals are so low that that's an ok outcome, especially if you dont have any direct legal experience beforehand.

I think more people get something eventually than people assume based on the 9-month numbers, based on my class's outcome (and I'm 2011 so we were pretty recession-screwed). I can't say it's absolutely everyone, and I can't say what they get is something they would have considered worth going to law school for when they signed up. And there are certainly people who get screwed over, and when that happens, it's terrible. But I don't think it's generally quite as life-ending as TLS assumes.

I've always wondered why TTT deans who proclaim this don't just collect the data themselves and post it to their schools' website. It wouldn't even be ABA regulated so they could massage the numbers as much as necessary.

I also would say, and I think that this is what Johann was getting at, that if you are just gonna do some job that is quasi-JD advantage that takes you 11+ months (new ABA cutoff is 10 months from graduation) to land for 45k you probably shouldn't have gone to law school unless your job really seriously only could have been scored with a JD and is really, seriously what you came to law school to do. Just being "employed" after 10 months isn't impressive in any way.

to clarify, the people that go to law school regret the hell out of the decision. but they usually didnt realize until summer after 2L year working in a small firm what being a lawyer entails. there's then this mad dash to either get into jobs that are anything but private pracice law (govt law or compliance or just corporate cog). i agree its not impressive and doesnt mean the law degree is worth anything, but it does mean a stat of 50% in law jobs doesnt reflect the accurate picture of who really wanted it. so none of what im saying should be taken as endorsing TTTs; its just the wrong reason as to why they suck. im pretty sure even though 90% of the people i graduated with are "fine," that almost all of them still regret law school and would avoid if they had a redo.

[mt2165]

Oh ok, what you guys are saying makes a decent amount of sense. But Johanne, so "fine" just means like not homeless and trading sexual favors for value meals?

[Johann]

yeah like 45k starting with no benefits (some as low as 35k - my first legal job was trading my $18/hour part time law clerk job that i liked for a 36k salary job i hated, which was less per hour but more hours that i needed) and 60k after a couple years and sometimes like 80 if they trade up a lot. just a constant networking effort though. taking multiple bars to move states. volunteering a shit load to get ins with certain groups. constantly applying for new jobs and interviewing. lots and lots of grinding. hell 4-5 years out, most are still trying to trade up and not content where they are. every year a shitload of my classmates drop the law profession because the payout is not worth the grind - perfect example is my good friend on law review worked in some shitlaw place making $45k after graduation for maybe a year or 2 before leaving to take a generic $30k job in uber's corporate department.

its just a really harsh profession if you arent making 6 figures in it. still harsh then but you can stomach it.

[jrass]

Oh ok, what you guys are saying makes a decent amount of sense. But Johanne, so "fine" just means like not homeless and trading sexual favors for value meals?

I think his point is that if someone has a useless degree, isn't very smart or skilled and is working retail with no viable 10 year plan then doing PAYE and earning 45k could be perceived as a net gain. They may never own a house or be debt free and will ultimately need to reach an agreement with the IRS when they can't pay their income tax bill in 20 years, but there's an argument they're still better off assuming they land that 45k job. You also get the 1:100 chance of being in a much better position.

I don't agree with this argument, and think there are variables he isn't accounting for, but it's not crazy.

[splitterswallow]

Really depends on how you define "making a ton of money". Without considering PAYE or scholarships: If you mean just revenue, then nah not so much. If you mean actual wealth (income-costs), then yes because you'll need to either make a lot of money to offset the debt, or go to a good lrap school for PI.