"Biglaw or Bust" Schools Forum

[zot1]

OP,

Based on this thread and the other one about being median, something tells me you want to somehow make assumptions so you can just coast by. While you're doing this, all of your peers are actually trying to figure out how to get to where they want, not how you can assume you can just get a job because you got into a top 14 and know partners in big law.

If this is the attitude you're going in with, you will have a very rude awakening after your first year grades come out and you go through OCI.

[Chrstgtr]

I am not sure what you mean by "low." If you mean USNWR, forget that. You're right to look at employment stats (especially employment at firms with 100+ attorneys and federal clerkships).

At any rate, what exactly your minimum threshold should be depends on your risk tolerance. There is risk at any school that you will want but not get BigLaw. It's an incredibly low risk at some schools, but it's there. My school (Columbia) has the highest BigLaw + FedClerk score (I think), but every year, there are a few people who want but do not get BigLaw. Those people tend to be incredibly socially awkward, have terrible grades, and/or bid only tough-to-crack markets, but they do exist.

Anyway, if I were to do this over again, wanted NYC BigLaw, these would be the schools I'd consider (in no particular order): Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, U. Chicago, Cornell, Virginia, NYU, Penn, and Duke. But again, that's based on my own personal risk tolerance.

NU should also be in there. NUS has similar placement rates and also have a large JD-MBA class that goes into things like consulting that is just as competitive and just as well compensated. I don't know what the consensus is regarding UVA's school-funded jobs, but that would make me worried if I was biglaw or bust. Aside from that, I agree with this list.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/profess ... /stats/jd/

ETA: I agree with above posters regarding your outlook. "Making money" probably isn't the best reason to go to law school for most people since most people burn out quickly and hate their life. If you are okay with taking that risk and money is that important, go for it.

[star fox]

Based on ABA disclosures here is the rough biglaw (100+ attorney) + fed clerkship data for the t-14 (this is helpful maybe for the rest of the t-14 but obviously still go to Y/S if you want biglaw and get in, probably H too depending on CCN scholarship and your financial situation):

1) Columbia - 78.85% (74.15% BL + 4.7% FC)
2) Penn - 78.05% (70.14% BL + 7.91% FC)
3) Chicago - 75.71% (60% BL + 15.71 % FC)
4) Stanford - 74.87% (44.39% bl + 30.48% FC)
5) Cornell - 74.35% (64.4% BL + 9.95% FC)
6) NYU - 71.4% (64.09%bl + 7.31% FC)
7) Harvard - 71.17% (56.66% BL + 14.51% FC)
8 ) Duke - 70.23% (56.74% BL + 13.49% FC)
9) Virginia - 67.63% (52.44% BL + 15.19% FC)
10) Northwestern - 64.95% (55.67% BL + 9.28% FC)
11) Berkeley - 62.37% (48.43% BL + 13.94% FC)
12) Yale - 60.43% (34.78% BL + 25.65% FC)
13) Michigan - 53.85% (43.44% BL +10.51% FC)
14) Georgetown - 48.4% (44.89% BL +3.51% FC)

Note: all this data is taken from the admissions forum thread tracking the ABA disclosures for the class of 2014.

One thing to keep in mind is 100+ attorney firms don't necessarily fit the biglaw mold as it's understood here on TLS. Most people would not consider a 110 attorney single-office firm to be biglaw, for example.

LST provides a breakdown on the size of the firms a school's class went to: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... yers/2014/

The percent of a school's class heading to NLJ 250 firms is also useful: http://tippingthescales.com/2015/02/the ... w-schools/

Using this narrower definition of biglaw puts the biglaw number at most schools 5-10% lower than their ABA 100+ figure.

Big law just means a firm that behaves how big law firms behave. I think there's actually plenty of sub-100 attorney firms that fit this model. They just don't really hire Summer Associates so it's not like those jobs are easy to get.

[chicago-gunner123]

NU should also be in there. NUS has similar placement rates and also have a large JD-MBA class that goes into things like consulting that is just as competitive and just as well compensated. I don't know what the consensus is regarding UVA's school-funded jobs, but that would make me worried if I was biglaw or bust. Aside from that, I agree with this list.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/profess ... /stats/jd/

ETA: I agree with above posters regarding your outlook. "Making money" probably isn't the best reason to go to law school for most people since most people burn out quickly and hate their life. If you are okay with taking that risk and money is that important, go for it.

I am confused. I have heard that narrative from NU a lot (and it makes sense to me), but where is that in the data you linked? It says in that link that of the 269 who are employed, 241 are in bar-passage required positions and 27 are in JD Advantage jobs. I am assuming neither of those are the consulting jobs. The "professional jobs" category sounds to me like a JD/MBA-type thing but there is only one reported as having that kind of job.

Do the NU JD/MBAs get reported in the MBA data instead?

[Desert Fox]

[Chrstgtr]

NU should also be in there. NUS has similar placement rates and also have a large JD-MBA class that goes into things like consulting that is just as competitive and just as well compensated. I don't know what the consensus is regarding UVA's school-funded jobs, but that would make me worried if I was biglaw or bust. Aside from that, I agree with this list.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/profess ... /stats/jd/

ETA: I agree with above posters regarding your outlook. "Making money" probably isn't the best reason to go to law school for most people since most people burn out quickly and hate their life. If you are okay with taking that risk and money is that important, go for it.

I am confused. I have heard that narrative from NU a lot (and it makes sense to me), but where is that in the data you linked? It says in that link that of the 269 who are employed, 241 are in bar-passage required positions and 27 are in JD Advantage jobs. I am assuming neither of those are the consulting jobs. The "professional jobs" category sounds to me like a JD/MBA-type thing but there is only one reported as having that kind of job.

Do the NU JD/MBAs get reported in the MBA data instead?

JD-Advantage jobs are the consulting/banking/other business jobs. When you look at a consulting job posting or listing it, it will list JDs as "prefered degrees. Basically, since you don't have to have a law degree to do the work of the consultant the degree is listed as "prefered" instead of "required" (law jobs meanwhile list JD as required because you obviously can't practice law without a JD). Those are mostly taken by JD-MBAs; but, some other random JDs will get those as well. You can confirm this if you look on the side at the JD-MBA outcomes tab. To be honest I have no idea what that one "professional" job might be.

The JD-MBAs get reported in the chart that I showed you. The first line of the page states "The following charts include data inclusive of both JD and JD-MBA graduates."

[Chrstgtr]

NU should also be in there. NUS has similar placement rates and also have a large JD-MBA class that goes into things like consulting that is just as competitive and just as well compensated. I don't know what the consensus is regarding UVA's school-funded jobs, but that would make me worried if I was biglaw or bust. Aside from that, I agree with this list.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/profess ... /stats/jd/

ETA: I agree with above posters regarding your outlook. "Making money" probably isn't the best reason to go to law school for most people since most people burn out quickly and hate their life. If you are okay with taking that risk and money is that important, go for it.

I am confused. I have heard that narrative from NU a lot (and it makes sense to me), but where is that in the data you linked? It says in that link that of the 269 who are employed, 241 are in bar-passage required positions and 27 are in JD Advantage jobs. I am assuming neither of those are the consulting jobs. The "professional jobs" category sounds to me like a JD/MBA-type thing but there is only one reported as having that kind of job.

Do the NU JD/MBAs get reported in the MBA data instead?

It's included in the JD numbers, but you should subtract it out.

14 people in the JDMBA class took "JD advantage" gigs.

True, only 14 JD/MBAs took job JD-Advantage jobs (this is a bit on the low-end from recent years), but 13 other graduates did as well. I don't see why you would subtract these out if the OP is concerned about getting a "good" outcome. Those jobs are at worst just as good as biglaw. Just based on my own experience, no one I know who went to a JD-Advantage job did so because they struck out and require way more preparation for interviewing than biglaw's "do you have the GPA and do you resemble a normal human?" screening process.

Either way, if you subtract those JD-Advantage jobs or leave them in as part of the "good" job outcomes, Northwestern's placement is better than at least Duke and probably another couple of schools hanging around the low 70s.

[Desert Fox]

[BigZuck]

I am not sure what you mean by "low." If you mean USNWR, forget that. You're right to look at employment stats (especially employment at firms with 100+ attorneys and federal clerkships).

At any rate, what exactly your minimum threshold should be depends on your risk tolerance. There is risk at any school that you will want but not get BigLaw. It's an incredibly low risk at some schools, but it's there. My school (Columbia) has the highest BigLaw + FedClerk score (I think), but every year, there are a few people who want but do not get BigLaw. Those people tend to be incredibly socially awkward, have terrible grades, and/or bid only tough-to-crack markets, but they do exist.

Anyway, if I were to do this over again, wanted NYC BigLaw, these would be the schools I'd consider (in no particular order): Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, U. Chicago, Cornell, Virginia, NYU, Penn, and Duke. But again, that's based on my own personal risk tolerance.

The pro-UVA/anti-NYU and Penn trolling in this post was really enjoyable to read

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IMO

OP- you're probably fine at any T12 but keep in mind that strikeouts do happen before you decide to commit to law school.

[052220152]

Michigan is definitely a TTT buts it's still better than gulc. It's cheaper and had better numbers

[BigZuck]

Michigan is definitely a TTT buts it's still better than gulc. It's cheaper and had better numbers

The Michigan apologists are such a stain that they drag the school below even GULC

Not to mention Dean Z

Eta: IMO

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

come on bro. you telling me michigan that fucking TTT is better than THE law center?

[052220152]

Michigan is definitely a TTT buts it's still better than gulc. It's cheaper and had better numbers

The Michigan apologists are such a stain that they drag the school below even GULC

Not to mention Dean Z

Eta: IMO

I guess. Law students are terrible no matter what school they are at though. Dean Zs cool aunt schtick is really tiresome.

[052220152]

come on bro. you telling me michigan that fucking TTT is better than THE law center?

Are you heavoldjuice or whatever

[T14-->BigLaw]

OP,

Based on this thread and the other one about being median, something tells me you want to somehow make assumptions so you can just coast by. While you're doing this, all of your peers are actually trying to figure out how to get to where they want, not how you can assume you can just get a job because you got into a top 14 and know partners in big law.

If this is the attitude you're going in with, you will have a very rude awakening after your first year grades come out and you go through OCI.

My goal is definitely not to "coast by." Rather, my goal is to graduate at the top of the class and work for Cravath or Sullivan & Cromwell. I am asking about median and connections because I want to weigh my best-case scenario and my worst-case scenario.

[iamgeorgebush]

I am not sure what you mean by "low." If you mean USNWR, forget that. You're right to look at employment stats (especially employment at firms with 100+ attorneys and federal clerkships).

At any rate, what exactly your minimum threshold should be depends on your risk tolerance. There is risk at any school that you will want but not get BigLaw. It's an incredibly low risk at some schools, but it's there. My school (Columbia) has the highest BigLaw + FedClerk score (I think), but every year, there are a few people who want but do not get BigLaw. Those people tend to be incredibly socially awkward, have terrible grades, and/or bid only tough-to-crack markets, but they do exist.

Anyway, if I were to do this over again, wanted NYC BigLaw, these would be the schools I'd consider (in no particular order): Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, U. Chicago, Cornell, Virginia, NYU, Penn, and Duke. But again, that's based on my own personal risk tolerance.

I'm looking at all of the above-mentioned schools. I will have little (30-40K) to no debt when I graduate, but the only reason I am going to law school is to pursue a career in BigLaw. Based on your anecdotal evidence, it seems that the people who struck out at OCI bid foolishly and/or had poor interpersonal skills. Am I correct?

I can think of a couple of people who struck out. Each made at least two mistakes out of the following: (1) bidding only tough, competitive secondary markets (think DC, SF, etc.); (2) being tremendously socially awkward; (3) having bad grades; (4) coming into OCI with a really negative attitude; and (5) not wearing a normal, conservative suit to OCI.

Those are just anecdotes, of course.

[landshoes]

OP,

Based on this thread and the other one about being median, something tells me you want to somehow make assumptions so you can just coast by. While you're doing this, all of your peers are actually trying to figure out how to get to where they want, not how you can assume you can just get a job because you got into a top 14 and know partners in big law.

If this is the attitude you're going in with, you will have a very rude awakening after your first year grades come out and you go through OCI.

My goal is definitely not to "coast by." Rather, my goal is to graduate at the top of the class and work for Cravath or Sullivan & Cromwell. I am asking about median and connections because I want to weigh my best-case scenario and my worst-case scenario.

do you even have your lsat/gpa yet? weighing all of these scenarios is all really kind of a waste of time until you know what your options are.

I mean HYS will give you pretty great options no matter what. But if you can't get that really doesn't matter.

[T14-->BigLaw]

OP,

Based on this thread and the other one about being median, something tells me you want to somehow make assumptions so you can just coast by. While you're doing this, all of your peers are actually trying to figure out how to get to where they want, not how you can assume you can just get a job because you got into a top 14 and know partners in big law.

If this is the attitude you're going in with, you will have a very rude awakening after your first year grades come out and you go through OCI.

My goal is definitely not to "coast by." Rather, my goal is to graduate at the top of the class and work for Cravath or Sullivan & Cromwell. I am asking about median and connections because I want to weigh my best-case scenario and my worst-case scenario.

do you even have your lsat/gpa yet? weighing all of these scenarios is all really kind of a waste of time until you know what your options are.

I mean HYS will give you pretty great options no matter what. But if you can't get that really doesn't matter.

I have a 4.02 LSAC gpa and I am waiting for LSAC to release my score from the October exam. I'd say my range is probably 166-171. I'm considering EDing to a T14 after receiving my results, if I score on the lower end of that range. I am going to graduate with little ($30-40K) to no debt, so I think it will be a good option.

[landshoes]

If you're not paying anyway and you're looking to minimize your downside risk, you want a HYS type school (even below median it looks incredibly good on your resume for basically anything.)

I don't think HYS have ED and your numbers are too good to ED at CCN and foreclose your chance at HYS. But this is all sort of academic without your LSAT score--166 is very very different from 171.

[El Pollito]

OP,

Based on this thread and the other one about being median, something tells me you want to somehow make assumptions so you can just coast by. While you're doing this, all of your peers are actually trying to figure out how to get to where they want, not how you can assume you can just get a job because you got into a top 14 and know partners in big law.

If this is the attitude you're going in with, you will have a very rude awakening after your first year grades come out and you go through OCI.

My goal is definitely not to "coast by." Rather, my goal is to graduate at the top of the class and work for Cravath or Sullivan & Cromwell. I am asking about median and connections because I want to weigh my best-case scenario and my worst-case scenario.

that's cute

[052220152]

OP,

Based on this thread and the other one about being median, something tells me you want to somehow make assumptions so you can just coast by. While you're doing this, all of your peers are actually trying to figure out how to get to where they want, not how you can assume you can just get a job because you got into a top 14 and know partners in big law.

If this is the attitude you're going in with, you will have a very rude awakening after your first year grades come out and you go through OCI.

My goal is definitely not to "coast by." Rather, my goal is to graduate at the top of the class and work for Cravath or Sullivan & Cromwell. I am asking about median and connections because I want to weigh my best-case scenario and my worst-case scenario.

that's cute

Yea dude just do wlrk

[SLS_AMG]

OP,

Based on this thread and the other one about being median, something tells me you want to somehow make assumptions so you can just coast by. While you're doing this, all of your peers are actually trying to figure out how to get to where they want, not how you can assume you can just get a job because you got into a top 14 and know partners in big law.

If this is the attitude you're going in with, you will have a very rude awakening after your first year grades come out and you go through OCI.

My goal is definitely not to "coast by." Rather, my goal is to graduate at the top of the class and work for Cravath or Sullivan & Cromwell. I am asking about median and connections because I want to weigh my best-case scenario and my worst-case scenario.

lulz. Based on your post history, I'd say the likelihood of your working at CSM or S&C--or any of their peer firms--is pretty low.

[anyriotgirl]

will your parents give you the money if you get a scholarship?

[jbagelboy]

OP,

Based on this thread and the other one about being median, something tells me you want to somehow make assumptions so you can just coast by. While you're doing this, all of your peers are actually trying to figure out how to get to where they want, not how you can assume you can just get a job because you got into a top 14 and know partners in big law.

If this is the attitude you're going in with, you will have a very rude awakening after your first year grades come out and you go through OCI.

My goal is definitely not to "coast by." Rather, my goal is to graduate at the top of the class and work for Cravath or Sullivan & Cromwell. I am asking about median and connections because I want to weigh my best-case scenario and my worst-case scenario.

lulz. Based on your post history, I'd say the likelihood of your working at CSM or S&C--or any of their peer firms--is pretty low.

I don't even know why one would pull those two firms. I wouldn't have known or cared what those were when I applied to law school

People at the top of the class at top schools don't even usually choose dime a dozen NY V10s (unless they are Corp I guess). Those massive summer class firms aren't the kind that can afford to only pull top talent