(Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school Forum

[mickey_mouse]

Currently considering doing an MPP before LS - or maybe instead of LS - at LSE or a school of that quality, are MPP's objectively worse than MBA's?

Anecdotal, but I work at a V50 consulting firm right now, just out of undergrad. MBAs are all a level above me in title/ pay, while MPPs/MPHs/MSs, etc. all have the same title as me (maybe making a bit more, or a bit larger signing bonus, don't know).

Question for Voyager:

As mentioned, I'm at a mid-sized (V50) consulting firm now, just applied to Michigan, Duke, Northwestern and a few other law schools. My LSAT score makes it out of reach for anything much higher and I've used my retakes. I've always wanted to get into the policy world (specifically healthcare) and have always viewed law school as the best way to learn those skills and make those connects. Would you still advise the ole 2-years-consulting-then-MBA path for someone like me?

[iliketurtles123]

Sorry I didn't understand from your original post.
Do you have an MBA? If so, did you initially pursue it or did you go JD -> MBA?

[t-14orbust]

How much do grades matter for getting MBB out of HYS?

[gnomgnomuch]

Currently considering doing an MPP before LS - or maybe instead of LS - at LSE or a school of that quality, are MPP's objectively worse than MBA's?

Anecdotal, but I work at a V50 consulting firm right now, just out of undergrad. MBAs are all a level above me in title/ pay, while MPPs/MPHs/MSs, etc. all have the same title as me (maybe making a bit more, or a bit larger signing bonus, don't know).


What kind of BG do you have, would you mind PM'ing me? I've got a few options after I graduate - currently a senior, but with a more or less useless major - so i'm lucky enough to be in my position at all, but i'm seriously considering going abroad to do a masters and work. Law school is always there and i dont relish taking on massive debt, which is why the 1 year MS's at LSE are so appealing.

[Pneumonia]

Assuming non-business work experience pre law school, and HYS, what are the necessary conditions for MBB? Personality and grades? Something else?

[Voyager]

I honestly know nothing about this path, but it seems odd to me that only CCN+ would have access to this as a career option. This all feels a bit unicorn-y. Like, "hey, don't do biglaw, do a bristow fellowship instead!" What advice would you have for someone with 1-3 years of meh work experience attending a lower T14 on a partial scholarship? If you attended a "less prestigious" school like Cornell or Northwestern, is this career option just not in the cards?

Nope! McKinsey comes to OCI and Columbia and NYU! Sure, the interviewing is rigorous and it is difficult to get hired, but those schools are square within McKinsey's recruiting profile.

You should ask if McKinsey comes to OCI at your school. I don't know. I was only involved in NYU and Columbia OCI. If not, you could try applying online.

[Voyager]

Currently considering doing an MPP before LS - or maybe instead of LS - at LSE or a school of that quality, are MPP's objectively worse than MBA's?

Anecdotal, but I work at a V50 consulting firm right now, just out of undergrad. MBAs are all a level above me in title/ pay, while MPPs/MPHs/MSs, etc. all have the same title as me (maybe making a bit more, or a bit larger signing bonus, don't know).

Question for Voyager:

As mentioned, I'm at a mid-sized (V50) consulting firm now, just applied to Michigan, Duke, Northwestern and a few other law schools. My LSAT score makes it out of reach for anything much higher and I've used my retakes. I've always wanted to get into the policy world (specifically healthcare) and have always viewed law school as the best way to learn those skills and make those connects. Would you still advise the ole 2-years-consulting-then-MBA path for someone like me?

I would. I don't think law has some special angle on policy making. Note, for example, that the PMF (Presidential Management Fellowship... which I also applied for and was interviewing at) takes all kinds of grad students.

I also think law is glutted with people right now and there are not enough jobs. Meanwhile, an MBA provides all kinds of options for you to explore, is cheaper, and effectively gets you a whole extra year of salary (because it is only 2 years long vs 3).

[Voyager]

Sorry I didn't understand from your original post.
Do you have an MBA? If so, did you initially pursue it or did you go JD -> MBA?

No. I only have a JD. Half of McKinsey's incoming Associate class each year are non-MBA grad school kids.

I think JD/MBAs are a giant scam perpetrated by schools on unsuspecting students.

[Voyager]

How much do grades matter for getting MBB out of HYS?

Not at all! I was a mediocre Columbia student. Middle of the class. No one asked to see my transcripts.

[Voyager]

Assuming non-business work experience pre law school, and HYS, what are the necessary conditions for MBB? Personality and grades? Something else?

Good essay in the application. Top school. KILLING the case interviews is all that matters, really. So good math skills, organized thinking, familiarity with some basic business concepts and their applications.

Should add: we are basically trying to figure out if you can solve difficult business problems and then effectively communicate the solution to the client. So yes, personality, communication skills etc. all matter.

Please see http://www.caseinterview.com

A former McKinsey guy (and Stanford B school alum) put it together years ago. I found it super helpful when I was prepping for case interviews. It used to all be free but I think he now charges for some of the content. Ignore that stuff. The free stuff is plenty good.

[Voyager]

Currently considering doing an MPP before LS - or maybe instead of LS - at LSE or a school of that quality, are MPP's objectively worse than MBA's?

Anecdotal, but I work at a V50 consulting firm right now, just out of undergrad. MBAs are all a level above me in title/ pay, while MPPs/MPHs/MSs, etc. all have the same title as me (maybe making a bit more, or a bit larger signing bonus, don't know).

One other thoughts: at MBB that is not the case. Everyone comes in at the exact same level. By month 4 the non-MBAs are indistinguishable from the MBAs (which should tell you something about business school...)

[lacrossebrother]

1) yes, I have an extensive pre-law school business background but many of my consulting PhD/law grad consulting peers did not

2) my jobs have always been 100x more stable than that of the average biglaw associate. Those dudes get waxed.

3) MBB kids are highly sought after. It is a golden ticket. I left after 2 years. Now I work 50 hrs/week with minimal travel

4) McKinsey (which is the only firm that really hires law school grads) offers a base of $140k ( I think... Was $135k when I did it), a $20k signing bonus, a 20% performance bonus and a 15%(?) retirement bonus (paid annually into a retirement account)

5) exit options beat that. I currently make more than a 4th year biglaw associate when including stock grants and bonus but I work much much less

6) advice to get into it? Attend CCN or better, sign up at OCI, prep the crap out of cases

Actual career advice upon arrival is a bit premature.

bcg recruits law students dude

[Voyager]

1) yes, I have an extensive pre-law school business background but many of my consulting PhD/law grad consulting peers did not

2) my jobs have always been 100x more stable than that of the average biglaw associate. Those dudes get waxed.

3) MBB kids are highly sought after. It is a golden ticket. I left after 2 years. Now I work 50 hrs/week with minimal travel

4) McKinsey (which is the only firm that really hires law school grads) offers a base of $140k ( I think... Was $135k when I did it), a $20k signing bonus, a 20% performance bonus and a 15%(?) retirement bonus (paid annually into a retirement account)

5) exit options beat that. I currently make more than a 4th year biglaw associate when including stock grants and bonus but I work much much less

6) advice to get into it? Attend CCN or better, sign up at OCI, prep the crap out of cases

Actual career advice upon arrival is a bit premature.

bcg recruits law students dude

Not many as far as I know. Bain tried it for awhile but met with failure. I thought BCG's incoming non-MBA crew was very small.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[lacrossebrother]

idk i went to one of their shindigs and they seemed to have a whole program set up for advanced degree bros and specifically mentioned being interested in JDs, but I don't know actual numbers. i just know that law is rad and that I assumed when i went to the shindig that they'd be using JDs to do like IP law strategy or some shit, but instead, they just said we like the way yall think. That just seemed like a waste.

[Voyager]

idk i went to one of their shindigs and they seemed to have a whole program set up for advanced degree bros and specifically mentioned being interested in JDs, but I don't know actual numbers. i just know that law is rad and that I assumed when i went to the shindig that they'd be using JDs to do like IP law strategy or some shit, but instead, they just said we like the way yall think. That just seemed like a waste.

Ah, friend. Law school teaches you very little of actual worth. You don't actually have any unique skills to bring to the table. IP law strategy? Why not hire an actual IP law firm with people that have been thinking about it for years?

That is why new attorneys basically just look for commas for 3 years. They don't know anything.

[lacrossebrother]

idk i went to one of their shindigs and they seemed to have a whole program set up for advanced degree bros and specifically mentioned being interested in JDs, but I don't know actual numbers. i just know that law is rad and that I assumed when i went to the shindig that they'd be using JDs to do like IP law strategy or some shit, but instead, they just said we like the way yall think. That just seemed like a waste.

Ah, friend. Law school teaches you very little of actual worth. You don't actually have any unique skills to bring to the table. IP law strategy? Why not hire an actual IP law firm with people that have been thinking about it for years?

That is why new attorneys basically just look for commas for 3 years. They don't know anything.

This is what I also realized. I was confused was I was being recruited, prior to learning how to be a lawyer in practice. But also MBAs have no actual worth, either. In fact, in the business school courses I've taken, the dudes are actually more obsessed with jargon than lawyers (despite the lack of consequence), can't write, aren't particularly good at math, marketing, or economics, and generally seem useless.

[Voyager]

idk i went to one of their shindigs and they seemed to have a whole program set up for advanced degree bros and specifically mentioned being interested in JDs, but I don't know actual numbers. i just know that law is rad and that I assumed when i went to the shindig that they'd be using JDs to do like IP law strategy or some shit, but instead, they just said we like the way yall think. That just seemed like a waste.

Ah, friend. Law school teaches you very little of actual worth. You don't actually have any unique skills to bring to the table. IP law strategy? Why not hire an actual IP law firm with people that have been thinking about it for years?

That is why new attorneys basically just look for commas for 3 years. They don't know anything.

This is what I also realized. I was confused was I was being recruited, prior to learning how to be a lawyer in practice. But also MBAs have no actual worth, either. In fact, in the business school courses I've taken, the dudes are actually more obsessed with jargon than lawyers (despite the lack of consequence), can't write, aren't particularly good at math, marketing, or economics, and generally seem useless.

Heh. Yes, it is true the MBAs spent most of their time drinking and ALSO have much to learn.

But here's the thing: they arrived at the same spot as the JDs 1 year faster while drinking and partying the whole time.

That said, the ones that are not good at math are not hired by MBB. We screen those people out.

[bearsfan23]

So OP doesn't have an MBA, yet tells people an MBA is essentially a golden ticket for success/wealth? That's terrible advice. I know plenty of people who seriously regretted pursuing MBAs, and the people who have had success with an MBA were successful BEFORE they got the degree.

Pursuing an MBA without business experience is probably the worst educational decision someone could make.

[Voyager]

So OP doesn't have an MBA, yet tells people an MBA is essentially a golden ticket for success/wealth? That's terrible advice. I know plenty of people who seriously regretted pursuing MBAs, and the people who have had success with an MBA were successful BEFORE they got the degree.

Pursuing an MBA without business experience is probably the worst educational decision someone could make.

Dude. You guys are applying to law school which is objectively a horrific idea. A top MBA is loads better for the reasons I outline (I can't speak about crappy MBAs... not sure where your "friends" got theirs). I ended up in the same place those kids do and am now hiring them.

As for the people you know... EVERYONE I know who went into law regrets it. The MBAs I know are happy they have a top MBA.

One more thought: you are a student. I've actually done what I'm talking about and am friends with a great many practicing attorneys and working MBAs. It is highly likely I am much better informed than you are.

[Pneumonia]

When you say math, what do you mean? Like I'm not afraid of numbers or calculus or anything, but also I'm in law school so math isn't by strong suit. What do I need to be good at?

[Voyager]

When you say math, what do you mean? Like I'm not afraid of numbers or calculus or anything, but also I'm in law school so math isn't by strong suit. What do I need to be good at?

Algebra and arithmetic. Go google some example case interviews to see what i mean

[lacrossebrother]

Is anyone besides Fortune 500 executives ever impressed when someone mentions that they work for a fortune X company?

[Johann]

what was your case study question? this interview style seems awesome. not sure why these people prep for so long on the case studies though.

[Voyager]

what was your case study question? this interview style seems awesome. not sure why these people prep for so long on the case studies though.

Because doing them well is difficult and you are competing against very very smart people.

I had 6 case interviews I went through. I don't remember the specifics too clearly. One involved whether a retailer should buy a failing furniture making business. Another involved shipping coal by sea.

You can Google example case interviews.

[Voyager]

Is anyone besides Fortune 500 executives ever impressed when someone mentions that they work for a fortune X company?

I'm not particularly impressed either, but it is a quick way to describe where I work without telling you the company name.

Honestly, what is it with this place? There is always some minority on kids here who are hyper defensive and very sensitive if they think anyone is bragging. I'm not bragging about working where I work. So relax.