Any Fordham Grads out there? Forum

[TheSpanishMain]

How bad is it really out there? Besides the numbers can someone give me examples of what the non $160k/yr law jobs are like?

We can argue about some of the details, but I think there would be near universal agreement that debt financing sticker price at Fordham is an AWFUL idea. The only people that would endorse it are probably on Fordham's payroll.

If you want to go to law school NYC, you either need to go to Fordham for close to free, or NYU/Columbia with a discount. Maybe Cardozo/Brooklyn if they are literally 100% free, no cost of living debt.

[Clearly]

So about these acronyms. I know ccn is Columbia, Chicago, or NYU. But what is this other forum besides tls? Dss? Google is not helping

Bahahahaa

[nygrrrl]

I have no regrets about going to Fordham, but I had specific needs that only Fordham could fulfill: I had to have an evening program (because I had to keep working, while in school) and I needed to stay in NYC for family reasons. Given those parameters, Fordham was my only choice. I liked several of my professors, met some great people, and felt that the alumni network was beneficial. The school served its purpose and I got what I needed out of it.

With your GPA, I would study my tail off for the LSAT and aim as high as possible/at least get $$.

[Yodamaster1990]

Okay....

[03152016]

so what are you going to do op

[Mal Reynolds]

Fordham at sticker is career suicide.

[Lacoste]

How bad is it really out there? Besides the numbers can someone give me examples of what the non $160k/yr law jobs are like?

We can argue about some of the details, but I think there would be near universal agreement that debt financing sticker price at Fordham is an AWFUL idea. The only people that would endorse it are probably on Fordham's payroll.

If you want to go to law school NYC, you either need to go to Fordham for close to free, or NYU/Columbia with a discount. Maybe Cardozo/Brooklyn if they are literally 100% free, no cost of living debt.

My bro received near full ride (~98%), but no stipend at Brooklyn. Do T2 schools like Brooklyn/Cardozo give out stipends?

How's Fordham's international law program?

[03152016]

How bad is it really out there? Besides the numbers can someone give me examples of what the non $160k/yr law jobs are like?

We can argue about some of the details, but I think there would be near universal agreement that debt financing sticker price at Fordham is an AWFUL idea. The only people that would endorse it are probably on Fordham's payroll.

If you want to go to law school NYC, you either need to go to Fordham for close to free, or NYU/Columbia with a discount. Maybe Cardozo/Brooklyn if they are literally 100% free, no cost of living debt.

My bro received near full ride (~98%), but no stipend at Brooklyn. Do T2 schools like Brooklyn/Cardozo give out stipends?

How's Fordham's international law program?

there are exceedingly few instances where one should attend bls or dozo, even on full scholarship
these schools have shockingly poor placement and fail to find legal jobs for half of their students

further, i'm not sure what you mean by international law
i'm sure they "have an international law program" but it's of practically no use to their students
maybe some top students enter corporate practice and are involved in international transactions
but if you're interested in prestigious pi/gov't work, your chances out of fordham aren't much better than out of hamburger university

look, if you want to go to school in the five boroughs, go to cls or nyu
you can legitimately debate fordham with a full ride, though i've made my feelings about that option clear itt
if your goal is to become a full-time practicing lawyer who actually gets paid, do not attend cardozo, brooklyn, cuny, st johns, or nyls under any circumstances

[timbs4339]

OP: If you get a job out of Fordham, it is probably not going to be "prestigious" work. You'll be starting out at the lower rungs of the DA/PD office, doing misdemeanor cases. Or Legal Aid, helping poor people with landlord-tenant, government benefits, and other areas of the law. Or you'll be working for a smaller firm in the outer boroughs or LI, working on personal injury, small business, local regulatory, or just really anything that walks into your boss's door. Salary will be 40-65K.

Yes, you can make a lot of money and become very successful as a lawyer even if you don't start out in a prestigious firm or organization. But it takes a lot of time (like decades), a huge capital investment, natural business skills, and even then it's a lot of risk. If you're already in finance and can get a CFA, stay in finance. You'll have a higher salary and better prospects in three years than you will out of Fordham.

[cattleprod]

How bad is it really out there? Besides the numbers can someone give me examples of what the non $160k/yr law jobs are like?

Starbuck Barista jobs after law school pays the same whether you have only a useless liberal arts degree or if you double down and add a useless JD. (I stole that line)
The only difference is about $150,000 in student loan debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.

Seriously, if you have a $70,000 per year job already, there is no point going to law school. You are throwing away 3 years of income, 3 years of 401k savings and growth, 3 years of useful experience in a real career. after law school at Fordham, there is a 40% chance that you will be really upset at yourself that you left your current career and wishing you could start over and get it back. But with the scarlet letter of the JD hanging on your resume, that non-law career you have now will be forever closed to you. You cannot easily erase those 3 years and explain away the gap. Very few non-law employers will consider you for serious employment.

Seriously, stay on the path to your CFA and save your marriage and your future. Being a lawyer is just absolutely the pits. There is nothing at all positive about the legal career path.

[JCougar]

How bad is it really out there? Besides the numbers can someone give me examples of what the non $160k/yr law jobs are like?

LOL. If you don't get a $160K/year job out of OCI, your options are:

1) Volunteer for no pay for 1-2 years in public interest/government
2) Work at some shitlaw firm doing slip n' fall cases or insurance defense, making about $30K/year and still working Biglaw hours
3) Work for your parents' law firm

Law school is a gigantic fraud and a pyramid scheme, and if you're thinking about paying sticker at a school like Fordham, you are the mark. There's only lawyer jobs AT ALL for about 50% of graduating JDs, and there's only desirable jobs for about 15% of them at best.

[JenDarby]

OP: If you get a job out of Fordham, it is probably not going to be "prestigious" work. You'll be starting out at the lower rungs of the DA/PD office, doing misdemeanor cases. Or Legal Aid, helping poor people with landlord-tenant, government benefits, and other areas of the law. Or you'll be working for a smaller firm in the outer boroughs or LI, working on personal injury, small business, local regulatory, or just really anything that walks into your boss's door. Salary will be 40-65K.

I'm not a Fordham cheerleader, by any means, but this is ridiculous.

I don't know one person doing any of those things.

Fordham certainly isn't going to guarantee you employment. That being said, I only have one good friend who graduated unemployed.

Scanning linkedin quickly and just looking at people from my section, I count around 5 DA gunners who got their first choice district, 20 some people with big law, quite a few people at firms I've never heard of in the city, fellows at various non profits. I can only think of a couple people from my section who definitively didn't graduate with employment lined up.

It is what it is. There are certinaly other schools with better employment prospects.

Don't go at sticker (to Fordham or anywhere, IMO). I agree with everyone suggesting you stay on your current career path.

[03152016]

the people in your group got lucky

according to their official 2013 NALP disclosure, almost 4 out of 10 students (37.5%) did not have employment lined up by graduation (435 reporting)

[03152016]

couple other interesting statistics:
of those who were employed out of fordham in their first nine months after graduation, 52.1% were seeking different employment (however, only 163 reporting, so take this with a grain of salt)
30.5% of students got their jobs through oci (420 reporting)

[JenDarby]

the people in your group got lucky

according to their official 2013 NALP disclosure, almost 4 out of 10 students (37.5%) did not have employment lined up by graduation (435 reporting)

This seems really crazy to me. Even if I go outside of my section and run through everyone I know mildly well, most graduated with employment lined up.

All the same, I'm pretty sure I have never really raved about or pushed Fordham on here. It worked out for me and it works out for many, but clearly there's a real chance it won't work out for any given person.

[nygrrrl]

This seems really crazy to me. Even if I go outside of my section and run through everyone I know mildly well, most graduated with employment lined up.

All the same, I'm pretty sure I have never really raved about or pushed Fordham on here. It worked out for me and it works out for many, but clearly there's a real chance it won't work out for any given person.

Yep.
Jen's experience is same as mine, though she was a day student and I was evening. Yes, there are other schools with better employment rates and YES, I don't believe that people should pay sticker for Lawl Skool (!!!), and yes, maybe Jen and I are outliers... But of my friends, at least 75% are going into Big Law, DA's offices, or solid Mid-Law/P.I. work.
As I've said before, I think Fordham can be a great means to an end, as long as you are clear on that from the beginning.

[NYCFAN1]

This seems really crazy to me. Even if I go outside of my section and run through everyone I know mildly well, most graduated with employment lined up.

All the same, I'm pretty sure I have never really raved about or pushed Fordham on here. It worked out for me and it works out for many, but clearly there's a real chance it won't work out for any given person.

Yep.
Jen's experience is same as mine, though she was a day student and I was evening. Yes, there are other schools with better employment rates and YES, I don't believe that people should pay sticker for Lawl Skool (!!!), and yes, maybe Jen and I are outliers... But of my friends, at least 75% are going into Big Law, DA's offices, or solid Mid-Law/P.I. work.
As I've said before, I think Fordham can be a great means to an end, as long as you are clear on that from the beginning.

Fordham almost never makes sense. They're stingy as hell with $ and if you have the numbers to get substantial scholarship money, you're looking at $ at the lower t-14.

[jingosaur]

I was pretty much in the exact same situation as OP expressed here:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5#p7959305
except I had a much better first LSAT score. With a Biglaw-or-bust mentality, the lowest ranked law school you can even seriously consider attending is Cornell and if it's at a back-end T14, you need at least $60k of scholarship money to make it reasonably doable. I still think T6 at sticker is justifiable, but $300k in student loans is fucking scary and will put you in a risky spot.

[JenDarby]

the people in your group got lucky

according to their official 2013 NALP disclosure, almost 4 out of 10 students (37.5%) did not have employment lined up by graduation (435 reporting)

Looking at the ABA employment summary and NALP report for 2013 grads the numbers were 42/481 unemployed at 9 months. 351 were employed with bar passage required which is 73% already.

Can you link to this 37% unemployment?

http://law.fordham.edu/career-planning/32159.htm

[03152016]

p. 6 of fordham's 2013 nalp disclosure
under heading "timing of job offer"



"before graduation" – 62.5%
100 - 62.5 = 37.5%

this brings up an important point that i neglected
this is factoring in non-JD jobs, this is factoring in part-time and short-term jobs
this is factoring in non-professional jobs
and eliminates unemployed from the denominator

so, in fact, 37.5% is too small, the actual number is higher

we can correct for the unemployment factor at least
there were 481 grads in 2013
272 were employed at graduation
so the "unemployed at graduation" rate is actually 43.45%
(again, this number would be substantially higher if short-term, part-time, non-jd/non-professional jobs are eliminated)

[03152016]

also, it's worth nothing that 1 out of 7 employed grads from fordham was school-funded
it's very difficult to tell if these jobs turned into permanent positions (this isn't specific to fordham, it's a real problem at many schools)

[JenDarby]

That seems different from this NALP report:



We can split hairs on timing of jobs, I don't really care either way.

But this is still worth noting.

[03152016]

you're looking at a table detailing outcomes at 9 months
which is completely different from what we're talking about
it's not splitting hairs, we were talking specifically about employed at graduation
that's why my chart is different
(although i have some things to say about fordham unemployment figures for sure, will address this later)

second, let me just clarify some further points for anyone who may see this table and come away with the wrong impression of fordham outcomes
that 73.3% bar passage required includes temp coding jobs and part-time work
and a solid chunk (1 out of 7) of the people listed on this chart are employed by the school
the salary statistics listed are completely off-base because a) a significant chunk of students don't respond, and b) those students are the most likely to have terrible salaries that cannot finance astronomical fordham law school tutition debt
jd advantage includes the types of jobs that students had before law school and/or continued through law school. the jd being an advantage in some way is a nebulous and abused distinction. also, do not put stock into those salary figures
other professional includes such categories as "education" (teaching kindergarten would qualify) or "business" (any business job requiring "professional training", not necessarily related to law)

i have some things to do right now but i'll go into more detail (and get into fordham unemployment) later tonight when i have a chance to sit down and really flesh things out
i also have some things to say about their pricing model and marketing

[JenDarby]

You typed way more than I will read in a TLS post.

I said in my initial post that my numbers were 9 months out. I don't think that time diminishes the graduates' employment stats.

Also I don't really care. If you want to flesh out the above for others, by all means.

[03152016]

I can only think of a couple people from my section who definitively didn't graduate with employment lined up.

the people in your group got lucky
according to their official 2013 NALP disclosure, almost 4 out of 10 students (37.5%) did not have employment lined up by graduation (435 reporting)

Can you link to this 37% unemployment?

*links to 37.5% not having employment lined up by graduation*

That seems different from this NALP report:
*links to employment at 9 months*

you're looking at a table detailing outcomes at 9 months
which is completely different from what we're talking about

I said in my initial post that my numbers were 9 months out. I don't think that time diminishes the graduates' employment stats.