Why do people go to law school? Forum

[Hipster but Athletic]

Here's my guess:
Graduate at year zero.

0: 200k in debt, had fun last 3 years.
1: 170k in debt, lived on 60k, go to work, work hard, suffer, eat good food, dont really care.
2: 130k in debt, lived on 70k, shit was tough, travel, ate good food, enjoyed girlfriend once in awhile.
3: 80k in debt, lived on 75k, stuff is tough.
4: 40k, tough year.
5: debt free, tough year.
6: save like 40k, tough year.
7: save another 50k, tough year. buy house.
make partner or go in house.
partner:
8: 500k, tough
9: 500k, tough
10: 500k, tough
11: go in-house at 300k, 35->retire at 55, solid life.
don't make partner:
8: 130k, easy as fuck, are 33-36 y.o., cruise control.
9: ++
etc.

I don't understand why people go to law school when they're in their 30s. If youre young it makes sense though I think. TLS overwhelmingly says "age doesn't matter" though, which I don't get.

[jbagelboy]

this is pretty depressing idk I guess I don't fit many of the stereotypes listed here, I majored in STEM at an elite UG, had good analyst gig bfore applying & my parents didn't care ect ect. There are definitely others at my school in my position who don't fit this theoretical shitty UG/useless major/wants another chance at money and prestige mold that's bandied around on tls

I think a combination of 1) being clearly intelligent possessing strong writing/analytic skills but not spectacularly good at any particular thing plus 2) lacking entrepreneurial spirit (for the most part - a few of my classmates and coworkers definitely have strong entrepreneurial/business instinct), 3) a little lazier than our peers in medicine plus 4) desire to grapple with at least somewhat challenging problems during the course of employment, learning on the job and gaining a license to solve the problems (i.e. sign the documents) others can't and last but not least 5) make 3-4 times the average american family income straight out of school

Also people sometimes exaggerate when characterizing legal work at a firm as useless or asinine or boring vis a vis other professions...in reality it does bear some interest as long as you're curious about that area of law/the case is kind of interesting, whatever. data entry in excel & making pivot tables is objectively worse than drafting a motion, researching case law, conference calls ect. So is charting, which is much of medicine unless you have scribe underlings (but senior associates have underlings for their research/citing/ect too). And these are the elite professions: you could be a security guard at a library or corporate plaza, and all you do is watch cameras, eat at your desk and play tetris. sounds great now but after 6 months I'd be so over it. There are some folks who have awesome jobs that are way cooler than practicing law, but it's not like those are so achievable and we all got punked not going into those fields

[84651846190]

I'm pretty sure "our peers in medicine" not only work harder than us but are also much more intelligent (on average). Hell, I bet the average MD student at a legit research institution is smarter than the average T10 law student these days. I mean, a 169 is an auto-acceptance ED at UVA law school these days. Think about that.

[Cogburn87]

And these are the elite professions

This notion is certainly part of the problem

[gnomgnomuch]

I'm pretty sure "our peers in medicine" not only work harder than us but are also much more intelligent (on average). Hell, I bet the average MD student at a legit research institution is smarter than the average T10 law student these days. I mean, a 169 is an auto-acceptance ED at UVA law school these days. Think about that.

TBF, an 169 is still a 95+ percentile score. I feel that sometimes TLS honestly doesn't realize how above the norm we are. At my UG'S pre-law society the e-board was telling us how a 160 is a SUPER good score.

Medicine is obviously more tough to break into, the average accepted MCAT score is a 32 which is an 85th percentile (around a 162) for the LSAT, than law.

[moneybagsphd]

I'm pretty sure "our peers in medicine" not only work harder than us but are also much more intelligent (on average). Hell, I bet the average MD student at a legit research institution is smarter than the average T10 law student these days. I mean, a 169 is an auto-acceptance ED at UVA law school these days. Think about that.

You don't actually know any med students, do you?

[loomy78]

some people dont have any other career options beyond restaurant servers or shitty PI "policy " entry level positions

[jd20132013]

Here's my guess:
Graduate at year zero.

0: 200k in debt, had fun last 3 years.
1: 170k in debt, lived on 60k, go to work, work hard, suffer, eat good food, dont really care.
2: 130k in debt, lived on 70k, shit was tough, travel, ate good food, enjoyed girlfriend once in awhile.
3: 80k in debt, lived on 75k, stuff is tough.
4: 40k, tough year.
5: debt free, tough year.
6: save like 40k, tough year.
7: save another 50k, tough year. buy house.
make partner or go in house.
partner:
8: 500k, tough
9: 500k, tough
10: 500k, tough
11: go in-house at 300k, 35->retire at 55, solid life.
don't make partner:
8: 130k, easy as fuck, are 33-36 y.o., cruise control.
9: ++
etc.

I don't understand why people go to law school when they're in their 30s. If youre young it makes sense though I think. TLS overwhelmingly says "age doesn't matter" though, which I don't get.

wait are u saying this is expected outcomes

[JCougar]

some people dont have any other career options beyond restaurant servers or shitty PI "policy " entry level positions

And many people's career options aren't any better after $250K of debt and a JD.

[jbagelboy]

I'm pretty sure "our peers in medicine" not only work harder than us but are also much more intelligent (on average). Hell, I bet the average MD student at a legit research institution is smarter than the average T10 law student these days. I mean, a 169 is an auto-acceptance ED at UVA law school these days. Think about that.

The way you speak suggests you don't know a lot of med students.

I disagree with you to some extent - yes medicine has higher barriers to entry and in college pre-meds tended to have more facetime in the library/lab, but they aren't "much more intelligent" - many of my friends are either in law or medicine, and the anecdotal evidence suggests it's pretty even (I know some pretty mediocre med students and some brilliant law students). Also measuring intelligence by LSAT score already belies severe flaws in your reasoning here. Now, could most med students succeed in law school? Definitely. Could most law students get into med school? No. But you can't compare head to head (I know you said "average" - I don't think that's an appropriate measurement because it doesn't really mean anything). There are only a couple dozen law schools worth attending where you will find a critical mass of intelligent people, whereas most American legitimate medical schools are 'worth' attending from a career perspective. Comparing those individuals, if you could match their strengths apples to apples I think the two populations would have similar aptitude.

[Cogburn87]

And many most people's career options aren't any better after $250K of debt and a JD.

[loomy78]

some people dont have any other career options beyond restaurant servers or shitty PI "policy " entry level positions

And many people's career options aren't any better after $250K of debt and a JD.

from a top 10 school with 150k debt --> business litigator who secures biglaw and works for 3 years --> laterals to similar firm works for 3 years --> moves to midlaw or starts a solo - 100k for the rest of career. this career path assumes that big-lawyer does NOT get an in-house or government position, which some certainly do.

[Cogburn87]

from a top 10 school with 150k debt --> business litigator who secures biglaw and works for 3 years --> laterals to similar firm works for 3 years --> moves to midlaw or starts a solo - 100k for the rest of career. this career path assumes that big-lawyer does NOT get an in-house or government position, which some certainly do.

Man. Why didn't the unemployed lawyers I know just do this? What dumbasses.

[Hipster but Athletic]

Here's my guess:
Graduate at year zero.

0: 200k in debt, had fun last 3 years.
1: 170k in debt, lived on 60k, go to work, work hard, suffer, eat good food, dont really care.
2: 130k in debt, lived on 70k, shit was tough, travel, ate good food, enjoyed girlfriend once in awhile.
3: 80k in debt, lived on 75k, stuff is tough.
4: 40k, tough year.
5: debt free, tough year.
6: save like 40k, tough year.
7: save another 50k, tough year. buy house.
make partner or go in house.
partner:
8: 500k, tough
9: 500k, tough
10: 500k, tough
11: go in-house at 300k, 35->retire at 55, solid life.
don't make partner:
8: 130k, easy as fuck, are 33-36 y.o., cruise control.
9: ++
etc.

I don't understand why people go to law school when they're in their 30s. If youre young it makes sense though I think. TLS overwhelmingly says "age doesn't matter" though, which I don't get.

wait are u saying this is expected outcomes

Yes if leaving "good lifestyle"

[Crowing]

I'm not sure why people ITT are suggesting that medicine is more intellectual. I was a STEM major and many of my high school and college friends are either med students or residents. If anything, medicine is maybe the least intellectual path out of STEM because what you're learning is so rote and frequently done by straight memorization. It's sort of like an extension of college o-chem; there's nothing really difficult, nebulous, or creative about it but it manages to be challenging because of the sheer quantity of the material.

[Hipster but Athletic]

I think becoming a surgeon is pretty damn impressive

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

I think becoming a surgeon is pretty damn impressive

I don't think anyone is saying otherwise, but there is a difference between respecting the job for the hard work and talent it reflects and fetishizing the entire medical field because it requires some understanding of "hard science."

There's no doubt that many doctors are very smart, but would you not say the same of Supreme Court Clerks? What about DC Circuit clerks? SDNY? Wachtell SAs? Keker? Williams and Connolly? Sure, you have to draw the line somewhere (sorry research clerks for Montana's 16th District), but you can't pretend that people who get the most competitive and desirable law jobs are not extremely smart.

We all say "lawyers are stupid" because we're familiar with the worst-of-the-worst slip-and-fall cut-and-paste-complaint paper churners, but when we say "doctors are smart" we're often overlooking the licensed physician who is advertising in the back of supermarket flyers for his sham practice that blindly writes medical marijuana prescriptions in Berkeley.

Surgery residencies are really competitive, but we shouldn't forget that SA positions at most v10 firms are also really competitive. Saying "med students are smarter than law students" only makes sense insofar as there is no domestic med school equivalent of Thomas Jefferson School of Law (though with 50% unemployment rates foreign medical schools that teach students who aim to work in the US come close). If you were instead to compare Stanford Law School to Stanford Medical School, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that one group was definitively "smarter" than the other.

[Hipster but Athletic]

I think the fact that you can get into an elite law school with sub 3.0 GPA though is kind of telling. Law school and MBA are the easiest grad programs to get into

[spleenworship]

I think the fact that you can get into an elite law school with sub 3.0 GPA though is kind of telling. Law school and MBA are the easiest grad programs to get into

Yeah, but that said, the fact is that GPA doesn't reflect intelligence. I had a 3.0 per LSAC and I know I'm smarter than a lot of the people who got higher GPAs. GPA could be because you are smart, but it could also be about the amount of work you put into classes, class selection, and teacher grading foibles than it is about smarts.

And the MCAT is, like the LSAT, a learn-able test. With hard work a friend of mine went from a 24 to a 32, and then got into med school. Is he smart? Yeah. Smarter than me? Yeah. But he's not that much smarter than me.

[runinthefront]

.

[yomisterd]

I think the fact that you can get into an elite law school with sub 3.0 GPA though is kind of telling. Law school and MBA are the easiest grad programs to get into

I don't think the correlation between intelligence and UGPA is nearly as strong as you think it is.

It's not telling at all. Look at all these 3.8XX, 155 posts

once again, LSAT as measure of intelligence is also flawed.

[prezidentv8]

It's a great way to abort a decent lifestyle.

*chortle*

[prezidentv8]

Montana's 16th District

I would be super jazzed if Montana was actually divided into 16 or more districts, because LOL

[tomwatts]

Montana's 16th District

I would be super jazzed if Montana was actually divided into 16 or more districts, because LOL

It goes up to 22.

[TatteredDignity]

Montana's 16th District

I would be super jazzed if Montana was actually divided into 16 or more districts, because LOL

It goes up to 22.

He probably meant federal districts.