How difficult to make top 10% at T4? Forum

[Johann]

It's not like you go from pondering which Tttt you're gonna deposit at to leveraging the T14s against each other for scholly money. His chances of getting t14 by LSAT retake is equally shitty as transferring. Neither are gonna happen. Spending a year retaking to get ttt prolly ain't worth shit either. His best option at this point with most realistic chances is not to go to law school or just go to the tttt while he's feeling motivated, Transfer to Florida/fsu after putting in 40 hour weeks both semester and walk out after 3 years into his unemployed, empty abyss of a life he busted his ass for

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p7865023

2.6/145

Yeah? I think this proves my point? What is he gonna do study for a year and get a 155? All of this guys outcomes are likely gonna be shit. Waiting ain't gonna help. He needs about 17 more lsat poits before retaking becomes looking better than just rolling the dice.

[ManoftheHour]

It's not like you go from pondering which Tttt you're gonna deposit at to leveraging the T14s against each other for scholly money. His chances of getting t14 by LSAT retake is equally shitty as transferring. Neither are gonna happen. Spending a year retaking to get ttt prolly ain't worth shit either. His best option at this point with most realistic chances is not to go to law school or just go to the tttt while he's feeling motivated, Transfer to Florida/fsu after putting in 40 hour weeks both semester and walk out after 3 years into his unemployed, empty abyss of a life he busted his ass for

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p7865023

2.6/145

Yeah? I think this proves my point? What is he gonna do study for a year and get a 155? All of this guys outcomes are likely gonna be shit. Waiting ain't gonna help. He needs about 17 more lsat poits before retaking becomes looking better than just rolling the dice.

That's the point.

Unless he can do what you say, I'd say "Don't go" is the only option.

[sighsigh]

Honestly, I would guess that it wouldn't be difficult at all for the typical person heading to the T14 to get top of the class at a T4.

I imagine a T4 would have the same general caliber of students as a halfway respectable state undergrad. Except the distribution of talent would be FAR smaller. The entering median LSATs at T4s are in the mid 140 to very low 150 range (25th-50th percentile scores). My own [halfway respectable public] undergrad had an average LSAT score in the high 150s (~70th percentile) and I didn't find it difficult to make top 5% at all.

None of this is all that reassuring though. Top 10% or 5% would likely get you zilch at a T4. You'd have to aim to be in, like, the top 3 people in the class to get a positive outcome based on grades.

[moneybagsphd]

He probably shouldn't go period. Even with a stellar LSAT score (170+), he'd likely be forced to choose between a good splitter-friendly school at full boat or a worse school with a scholarship. The former isn't worth the money and the latter isn't worth the time.

[lawhopeful10]

This topic has been beaten to death so many times on this website. But to clear it up people with higher GPA/LSATs do have a slight statistical edge when going to lower ranked schools, however employment drops off much much more than the small advantage you get by having higher numbers. Thus, even a T14 student at a T4 while having a better shot of finishing above median still is a terrible decision. The only time I could see you ever factoring in higher GPA/LSAT into the equation would be when deciding on whether to go free ride at full regional vs. something greater because maybe the increased odds tips the scales for the regional but even then it is only acceptable because you are keeping your debt low and aware that you still likely won't finish near the top.

[sundance95]

.

[First Offense]

Long story short: Don't go to law school.

[FSK]

It's not like you go from pondering which Tttt you're gonna deposit at to leveraging the T14s against each other for scholly money. His chances of getting t14 by LSAT retake is equally shitty as transferring. Neither are gonna happen. Spending a year retaking to get ttt prolly ain't worth shit either. His best option at this point with most realistic chances is not to go to law school or just go to the tttt while he's feeling motivated, Transfer to Florida/fsu after putting in 40 hour weeks both semester and walk out after 3 years into his unemployed, empty abyss of a life he busted his ass for

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p7865023

2.6/145

Not going to law school is the answer here.

[pancakes3]

Sorry OP, a 145 is unredeemable. 145 is bottom quartile, missing more than half the questions. Comparatively, an SAT of the similar percentile would be a 1290. Out of 2400. There are other ways to make money.

[skri65]

Sorry OP, a 145 is unredeemable. 145 is bottom quartile, missing more than half the questions. Comparatively, an SAT of the similar percentile would be a 1290. Out of 2400. There are other ways to make money.

This is just BS. I scored a 147 on my diagnostic, a 152 the first time I took the LSAT. I studied hard, and ended up taking it three more times. I ended up at a T30 school with more than 1/2 scholarship and top 10% + LR.

Work hard, work smart, and it's well within reach. Just don't enroll in a T4.

And to answer the original OP's question, IMO you can work your way into the top 33-50%, but you can't necessarily work your way into the top 10%. A lot of it is luck, natural smarts, and students that just "get it"

[isuperserial]

It's not like you go from pondering which Tttt you're gonna deposit at to leveraging the T14s against each other for scholly money. His chances of getting t14 by LSAT retake is equally shitty as transferring. Neither are gonna happen. Spending a year retaking to get ttt prolly ain't worth shit either. His best option at this point with most realistic chances is not to go to law school or just go to the tttt while he's feeling motivated, Transfer to Florida/fsu after putting in 40 hour weeks both semester and walk out after 3 years into his unemployed, empty abyss of a life he busted his ass for

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p7865023

2.6/145

Not going to law school is the answer here.

Seconded. There is no happy ending to this story if he tries to go with those stats. This isn't, "I'm going to go to my local TTTT that does well in the area on a full ride." This is, "I'm paying sticker at Golden Gate." OP, I usually try to find the silver lining in situations like this, but law school isn't for you man. Abort mission, my friend.

[timmyd]

Just retake the LSAT after lots of prep and see how you do. I do not necesarily think its impossible, but please don't go tttt.

[isuperserial]

TL;DR:

[Mredav44]

.

[84651846190]

If you work as hard as you possibly can, you could still end up below median. It takes a combination of working hard AND smart, and even then it's a crapshoot.

[Louis1127]

Sorry OP, a 145 is unredeemable. 145 is bottom quartile, missing more than half the questions. Comparatively, an SAT of the similar percentile would be a 1290. Out of 2400. There are other ways to make money.

Yea no one ever improves their LSAT score by more than a point or two, and if someone by chance does, law schools won't care because they average LSAT scores and are totally not numbers whores.

[Clearly]

Sorry OP, a 145 is unredeemable. 145 is bottom quartile, missing more than half the questions. Comparatively, an SAT of the similar percentile would be a 1290. Out of 2400. There are other ways to make money.

Yea no one ever improves their LSAT score by more than a point or two, and if someone by chance does, law schools won't care because they average LSAT scores and are totally not numbers whores.

Listen, as a high scoring retaker myself, I'd like to take your position on it...but they have data on these things. It's absurdly rare that someone improves at the level he would need to. There's gotta be a point at which it's not worth the lost time and effort for the odds.

[Pokemon]

Sorry OP, a 145 is unredeemable. 145 is bottom quartile, missing more than half the questions. Comparatively, an SAT of the similar percentile would be a 1290. Out of 2400. There are other ways to make money.

Yea no one ever improves their LSAT score by more than a point or two, and if someone by chance does, law schools won't care because they average LSAT scores and are totally not numbers whores.

With a 2.6 gpa, OP need to improve his LSAT by 25 points, at least.

[mephistopheles]

it's a red flag for either complete unpreparedness or sheer idiocy to score below 150.

[catfished]

I would just like to chime in here and say that there is like, literally, NO WAY to predict your grades in law school. I've gotten A's, and I've gotten B's. I couldn't even begin to try to explain why I received the grades I did.

I used to give tours to admitted students. There were many times when I was put off by what prospective students had to say. But NOTHING put me off more than the prospective student that came in touting that s/he would be in the Top-10% of the class. It's an asinine statement, with no basis in reality whatsoever.

Fact about law school is you could be a goddamn savant and still B a class. And it's NOT because your peers are more "brilliant" than you are. Sometimes the difference between an A and a B will boil down to one or two sentences, heck, even WORDS in an exam answer.

If you are going to a law school with the intent to transfer, you best get comfortable homey. Because odds are not in your favor. No matter how smart, hardworking or "dedicated to the law" you may be.

Good luck.

[TheSpanishMain]

Sorry OP, a 145 is unredeemable. 145 is bottom quartile, missing more than half the questions. Comparatively, an SAT of the similar percentile would be a 1290. Out of 2400. There are other ways to make money.

Yea no one ever improves their LSAT score by more than a point or two, and if someone by chance does, law schools won't care because they average LSAT scores and are totally not numbers whores.

It does happen, but it's extremely rare. So, yeah, it's theoretically possible that OP could jump 25 points, but very, very unlikely. I know we all talk about how the LSAT can be gamed and isn't a good predictor of law school success/intelligence, and while I agree with that within a certain band of scores, I think it's pretty meaningful at the extremes. Sub 150s suggests that the person doesn't just need to drill games or work on time management; it suggests they are unable to comprehend dense texts or apply logical reasoning. The odds are bad here. Like, worse than the odds of getting a decent job out of Cooley. Keep in mind OP also has a 2.6 GPA to compensate for.

OP, unless you have a guaranteed job, in writing, and some source of outside funding for law school (rich family, rich spouse, veterans' benefits, etc) you shouldn't go to law school. The odds of you being able to make this work are very, very long.

[Louis1127]

Sorry OP, a 145 is unredeemable. 145 is bottom quartile, missing more than half the questions. Comparatively, an SAT of the similar percentile would be a 1290. Out of 2400. There are other ways to make money.

Yea no one ever improves their LSAT score by more than a point or two, and if someone by chance does, law schools won't care because they average LSAT scores and are totally not numbers whores.

It does happen, but it's extremely rare. So, yeah, it's theoretically possible that OP could jump 25 points, but very, very unlikely. I know we all talk about how the LSAT can be gamed and isn't a good predictor of law school success/intelligence, and while I agree with that within a certain band of scores, I think it's pretty meaningful at the extremes. Sub 150s suggests that the person doesn't just need to drill games or work on time management; it suggests they are unable to comprehend dense texts or apply logical reasoning. The odds are bad here. Like, worse than the odds of getting a decent job out of Cooley. Keep in mind OP also has a 2.6 GPA to compensate for.

OP, unless you have a guaranteed job, in writing, and some source of outside funding for law school (rich family, rich spouse, veterans' benefits, etc) you shouldn't go to law school. The odds of you being able to make this work are very, very long.

I think we are on different pages. I searched OP and couldn't find a post where (s)he said how much he/she studied before taking the LSAT. If OP walked in totally cold and got a 143, if OP works extremely hard, he/she could realistically make it into the high 150s, maybe even break 160, and a very small (but not 0) chance of going beyond the low 160s.

Obviously, if OP studied legitimately for 6 months and got a 143, different story.

I am missing something, as I am not sure where the 25 point improvement came in. the applications game, even with a low GPA, is way different w/ a 143 than it is w/ a 159. Some TTTs might throw a full scholarship with no stips OP's way, and that may potentially be a solid option depending on what OP wants to do (and I realize that this is a point of contention between ppl here on TLS, and that's fine, but my point is: 1. that it's worth trying for a higher LSAT if OP got a 143 cold), and 2. the idea that 143 (if gotten cold) is totally unredeemable is pure bullshit.

Also, one of OP's post MAY indicate that OP is a URM, unless he/she asked that question for someone else besides him/herself, which is a possibility. Obviously that would help in the admissions game.

[pancakes3]

Sorry OP, a 145 is unredeemable. 145 is bottom quartile, missing more than half the questions. Comparatively, an SAT of the similar percentile would be a 1290. Out of 2400. There are other ways to make money.

Yea no one ever improves their LSAT score by more than a point or two, and if someone by chance does, law schools won't care because they average LSAT scores and are totally not numbers whores.

It does happen, but it's extremely rare. So, yeah, it's theoretically possible that OP could jump 25 points, but very, very unlikely. I know we all talk about how the LSAT can be gamed and isn't a good predictor of law school success/intelligence, and while I agree with that within a certain band of scores, I think it's pretty meaningful at the extremes. Sub 150s suggests that the person doesn't just need to drill games or work on time management; it suggests they are unable to comprehend dense texts or apply logical reasoning. The odds are bad here. Like, worse than the odds of getting a decent job out of Cooley. Keep in mind OP also has a 2.6 GPA to compensate for.

OP, unless you have a guaranteed job, in writing, and some source of outside funding for law school (rich family, rich spouse, veterans' benefits, etc) you shouldn't go to law school. The odds of you being able to make this work are very, very long.

I think we are on different pages. I searched OP and couldn't find a post where (s)he said how much he/she studied before taking the LSAT. If OP walked in totally cold and got a 143, if OP works extremely hard, he/she could realistically make it into the high 150s, maybe even break 160, and a very small (but not 0) chance of going beyond the low 160s.

Obviously, if OP studied legitimately for 6 months and got a 143, different story.

I am missing something, as I am not sure where the 25 point improvement came in. the applications game, even with a low GPA, is way different w/ a 143 than it is w/ a 159. Some TTTs might throw a full scholarship with no stips OP's way, and that may potentially be a solid option depending on what OP wants to do (and I realize that this is a point of contention between ppl here on TLS, and that's fine, but my point is: 1. that it's worth trying for a higher LSAT if OP got a 143 cold), and 2. the idea that 143 (if gotten cold) is totally unredeemable is pure bullshit.

Also, one of OP's post MAY indicate that OP is a URM, unless he/she asked that question for someone else besides him/herself, which is a possibility. Obviously that would help in the admissions game.

Well you and I are certainly on different pages.

1) Sorry, did I say that the OP can only improve his score by 1-2 points?
2) Are law schools NOT number whores?
3) It's a lose-lose on the 145 LSAT score. Either the OP is the type of person who thought it'd be a good idea to apply to law school with an ice-cold 1st time LSAT and got a 145 or the OP studied and got a 145. Either way - that person should not be a lawyer.
4) I had no idea that 2.6 GPA, 160 LSAT applicants got full rides with no stips. That doesn't sound right. Scammy, for-profit law schools don't offer zero-stip scholarships. I'd like a cite - even anecdotal.
5) A full ride TTT still only offers a 20-30% chance at long-term JD employment. Shitty long-term JD employment at that.
6) Let's string along the what-if's here. You say the OP should retake for a higher score - a much higher score. 20 points higher. That's a big if. You want the OP to get a full ride. That's an even bigger if. Then the OP has to graduate in the top third of his/her class for even a shot at a job. There's another big if.

Let's just say the chances of improving his/her LSAT by 20 points is a GENEROUS 50% shot. Then let's say it's another 50/50 on if he gets significant zero-stip scholly money. 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/3 = 8.3% chance the OP comes out with a 40-60k/year job.

More realistic probabilities would be 10% chance the LSATs jump that many points, 10% chance at meaningful $$$ scholly with stips, and only the top quartile get long-term employment out of a TTT. .1*[.1*(.5*.75*.75)]*.25 = 0.7% chance the OP comes out with a 60k/year job.

(The .5*.75*.75 is the likelihood OP maintains the stips. Gave the benefit of the doubt that it's 50/50 first year and higher probabilities keeping the scholly the 2nd and 3rd years).

I'm sticking with irredeemable. OP should try getting a real estate license or something.

[mephistopheles]

i think louie is just an idiot

[dowu]

LSAT over median can get you a Scholly at a lot of schools worth going to. Just sayin.