Starting School in Fall, Getting Cold Feet Forum

[whereskyle]

BNL, you have mentioned nothing other than money as a reason to go to law school. My consideration of your "math equation" begs me to ask: would you like to work more hours at what is effectively the same pay rate doing something that you may not like?

I think your answer regarding law school is for now "no" as you freely admit that you have no compelling reason to attend, while you are offering us compelling reasons why you should not attend (i.e., you want to do math, not law). If you KNEW that you wanted to be a patent attorney, then of course you should go, but you don't. Patent law isn't math. It's patent law.

From the perspective of someone like me, who is going to law school without any current job prospects paying more than 40k/year, I see the allure of a jump from 90k + benefits to 160k (simply through adding work hours) as being negligible, if not dangerous, considering it's at best a toss-up that you'll like being an attorney. If you have a job that you know you like in a very secure industry that pays well in a city you'd like to stay in, I see no good reason to jump into law other than to waste time and to chase something illusory (being "very well off" as opposed to "well off", maybe, in twenty years). Sure, if you really feel like "exploring" the legal academy and various fields of law, then U Chicago at that price is the place to do it. But, I don't think you're really interested in that either. If you feel like you want to work additional hours for more money, can't you just take on additional projects in the engineering field?

[alkaseltzer]

What degree do you actually have? If you have an EE degree (or maybe CS) I would advise you to go either way.

[BNL]

What degree do you actually have? If you have an EE degree (or maybe CS) I would advise you to go either way.

My degree is in something other than CS and EE.

[jd20132013]

going to Uchicago will look nice on resume, and will be a nice convesation piece at those boring parties people like to go to to demonstrate social status

when you're stuck in an office at 3 am its just a diploma on the wall

[alkaseltzer]

My degree is in something other than CS and EE.

Do not go to law school then. Or get an MS in EE/CS and go.

[ManoftheHour]

90k plus benefits + 40 hours a week? Are you kidding me?

"Creating a life that reflects your values and satisfies your soul is a rare achievement. In a culture that relentlessly promotes avarice and excess as the good life, a person happy doing his own work is usually considered an eccentric, if not a subversive. Ambition is only understood if it's to rise to the top of some imaginary ladder of success. Someone who takes an undemanding job because it affords him the time to pursue other interests and activities is considered a flake. A person who abandons a career in order to stay home and raise children is considered not to be living up to his potential-as if a job title and salary are the sole measure of human worth.

You'll be told in a hundred ways, some subtle and some not, to keep climbing, and never be satisfied with where you are, who you are, and what you're doing. There are a million ways to sell yourself out, and I guarantee you'll hear about them.

To invent your own life's meaning is not easy, but it's still allowed, and I think you'll be happier for the trouble."

-Bill Watterson

[alkaseltzer]

I know I'm the exception to this board but I do love patent law. But I genuinely enjoy learning about new technologies.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Don't go to law school for $. You will essentially be working 50% more hours for 50% more pay, and not with more job security or necessarily better exit options. Plus you will give up three years of income. If you have genuinely good reasons for wanting to practice law that is different.

[prezidentv8]

Hello current students and recent graduates,

I am getting seriously cold feet about going to law school. Help me out here. Here are the pertinent facts:

• Current employment: really cool engineering field, 90k/yr + benefits, 40 hrs/week, in Chicago
• Planning to go into patent law
• Law school: University of Chicago
• Expected debt: <50k at ~3% interest

Am I crazy for leaving a perfectly good job to go grind for 35 years in law? Am I crazy for thinking about turning down a University of Chicago education with such little debt? Thanks in advance.

I think you should stick with the current gig unless you are 100% certain you want to be an attorney.

90k plus benefits + 40 hours a week? Are you kidding me?

"Creating a life that reflects your values and satisfies your soul is a rare achievement. In a culture that relentlessly promotes avarice and excess as the good life, a person happy doing his own work is usually considered an eccentric, if not a subversive. Ambition is only understood if it's to rise to the top of some imaginary ladder of success. Someone who takes an undemanding job because it affords him the time to pursue other interests and activities is considered a flake. A person who abandons a career in order to stay home and raise children is considered not to be living up to his potential-as if a job title and salary are the sole measure of human worth.

You'll be told in a hundred ways, some subtle and some not, to keep climbing, and never be satisfied with where you are, who you are, and what you're doing. There are a million ways to sell yourself out, and I guarantee you'll hear about them.

To invent your own life's meaning is not easy, but it's still allowed, and I think you'll be happier for the trouble."

-Bill Watterson

Calvin and Hobbes dude nailed it.

[jd20132013]

to be fair, it's easy to say that after you're filthy rich doing what you love

yes I'm a bit bitter that that doesn't seem likely for me

[alkaseltzer]

Don't go to law school for $. You will essentially be working 50% more hours for 50% more pay, and not with more job security or necessarily better exit options. Plus you will give up three years of income. If you have genuinely good reasons for wanting to practice law that is different.

Do you know what you are talking about? All my colleagues with proper tech backgrounds are IPSECURE. They are either in-house counsel, partners at small boutiques, etc. Only 1 of them is a BIGLAW partner and make the ridiculous $$$$$$, but the majority earn more than engineers. The live to work lifestyle is gone after you pay your dues during your associate years. You can't mindlessly block someone from going into patent law just because it's law. He has proper tech experience, and I think with a little more credibility he'll be fine in the long run in patent law.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Don't go to law school for $. You will essentially be working 50% more hours for 50% more pay, and not with more job security or necessarily better exit options. Plus you will give up three years of income. If you have genuinely good reasons for wanting to practice law that is different.

Do you know what you are talking about? All my colleagues with proper tech backgrounds are IPSECURE. They are either in-house counsel, partners at small boutiques, etc. Only 1 of them is a BIGLAW partner and make the ridiculous $$$$$$, but the majority earn more than engineers. The live to work lifestyle is gone after you pay your dues during your associate years. You can't mindlessly block someone from going into patent law just because it's law. He has proper tech experience, and I think with a little more credibility he'll be fine in the long run in patent law.

Yo, I am a summer associate and I will be a lawyer. I'm actually working on an IP project now that I love, and if I had a science background I would probably go for IP. But the OP says his reason for law school is $. I think that's really not a good reason. A lot of people in my summer class are not happy at all. A lot of my law school classmates are not happy. Yes, he will likely have a secure financial future doing IP law. For someone who is about to leave a secure career to go into debt and give up $270k + benefits in salary (so at a cost of approximately $350k) I think that making money is not enough of a reason.

[igo2northwestern]

Don't go to law school for $. You will essentially be working 50% more hours for 50% more pay, and not with more job security or necessarily better exit options. Plus you will give up three years of income. If you have genuinely good reasons for wanting to practice law that is different.

Do you know what you are talking about? All my colleagues with proper tech backgrounds are IPSECURE. They are either in-house counsel, partners at small boutiques, etc. Only 1 of them is a BIGLAW partner and make the ridiculous $$$$$$, but the majority earn more than engineers. The live to work lifestyle is gone after you pay your dues during your associate years. You can't mindlessly block someone from going into patent law just because it's law. He has proper tech experience, and I think with a little more credibility he'll be fine in the long run in patent law.

I agree with this for the most part. OP, consider if tech doesn't continue in the current upward trend, whether your present line of work be less affected than patent law more generally. That's a caveat in the above quoted text (apart from what's been discussed already).

[alkaseltzer]

[quote]

[BNL]

Someone as smart as you in a useful field should not be thinking about going into law. The legal industry is a refuge for uncreative box-checker types. Why not get more experience in engineering and then go into consulting or start your own business? Do you have a PhD? You could potentially work as an expert witness for law firms, which is by far way cooler (and potentially more lucrative) than working as a lawyer. I know some very average expert consultants who bill out at $650/hr with very minimal overhead. That's over a million per year working from home.

Practicing law, especially as a junior patent litigation associate, is like reading the phone book all day--except you have to concentrate really hard and make sure you read every word of the phone book or you might get fired. It can be a really horrible combination of insanely boring with insanely stressful.

Also, the big money in law often reaches a dead end around year 10 or so for a lot of lawyers. I know ex-lawyers who left biglaw after longish stints and now make less than they did (in real dollars) before law school in non-law jobs. Granted, most of them did this by choice.

Is it really that boring? I've heard that the work is actually quite interesting, especially if you do prosecution because everything that comes across your desk is brand new technology. I've also heard that another benefit of patent prosecution is more regular hours and better work/life balance.

[84651846190]

Someone as smart as you in a useful field should not be thinking about going into law. The legal industry is a refuge for uncreative box-checker types. Why not get more experience in engineering and then go into consulting or start your own business? Do you have a PhD? You could potentially work as an expert witness for law firms, which is by far way cooler (and potentially more lucrative) than working as a lawyer. I know some very average expert consultants who bill out at $650/hr with very minimal overhead. That's over a million per year working from home.

Practicing law, especially as a junior patent litigation associate, is like reading the phone book all day--except you have to concentrate really hard and make sure you read every word of the phone book or you might get fired. It can be a really horrible combination of insanely boring with insanely stressful.

Also, the big money in law often reaches a dead end around year 10 or so for a lot of lawyers. I know ex-lawyers who left biglaw after longish stints and now make less than they did (in real dollars) before law school in non-law jobs. Granted, most of them did this by choice.

Is it really that boring? I've heard that the work is actually quite interesting, especially if you do prosecution because everything that comes across your desk is brand new technology. I've also heard that another benefit of patent prosecution is more regular hours and better work/life balance.

I don't know anything about patent prosecution.

For patent litigation, partners (and sometimes senior associates) do all the interesting work: high-level strategy, drafting important briefs, client interactions, anything that involves physically standing in a court room, etc. The only work that trickles down to junior associates, at least at a biglaw firm with a large practice, is work that requires too much time/drudgery for anyone more senior to be able do it efficiently (or even want to do it, for that matter). These kinds of things include prior art searching, document review, overseeing experts, overseeing contract document reviewers, responding/drafting massively long discovery documents, etc.

[Nomo]

In the end you've got a better shot at making money doing something you enjoy. If you enjoy you're work you will maximize your creativity and care more about your ambitions. Its going to lead to success. If you do something you don't enjoy (particularly with bad hours) you are going to burn out fast.

[oblitigate]

Someone as smart as you in a useful field should not be thinking about going into law. The legal industry is a refuge for uncreative box-checker types. Why not get more experience in engineering and then go into consulting or start your own business? Do you have a PhD? You could potentially work as an expert witness for law firms, which is by far way cooler (and potentially more lucrative) than working as a lawyer. I know some very average expert consultants who bill out at $650/hr with very minimal overhead. That's over a million per year working from home.

Practicing law, especially as a junior patent litigation associate, is like reading the phone book all day--except you have to concentrate really hard and make sure you read every word of the phone book or you might get fired. It can be a really horrible combination of insanely boring with insanely stressful.

Also, the big money in law often reaches a dead end around year 10 or so for a lot of lawyers. I know ex-lawyers who left biglaw after longish stints and now make less than they did (in real dollars) before law school in non-law jobs. Granted, most of them did this by choice.

Is it really that boring? I've heard that the work is actually quite interesting, especially if you do prosecution because everything that comes across your desk is brand new technology. I've also heard that another benefit of patent prosecution is more regular hours and better work/life balance.

Op--I work in patent litigation. Prosecution is mindnumbingly dry and so are patent prosecutors. You'll want to gouge your fkn eyes out if you prosecute. Good luck!!

[jbagelboy]

Someone as smart as you in a useful field should not be thinking about going into law. The legal industry is a refuge for uncreative box-checker types. Why not get more experience in engineering and then go into consulting or start your own business? Do you have a PhD? You could potentially work as an expert witness for law firms, which is by far way cooler (and potentially more lucrative) than working as a lawyer. I know some very average expert consultants who bill out at $650/hr with very minimal overhead. That's over a million per year working from home.

Practicing law, especially as a junior patent litigation associate, is like reading the phone book all day--except you have to concentrate really hard and make sure you read every word of the phone book or you might get fired. It can be a really horrible combination of insanely boring with insanely stressful.

Also, the big money in law often reaches a dead end around year 10 or so for a lot of lawyers. I know ex-lawyers who left biglaw after longish stints and now make less than they did (in real dollars) before law school in non-law jobs. Granted, most of them did this by choice.

Is it really that boring? I've heard that the work is actually quite interesting, especially if you do prosecution because everything that comes across your desk is brand new technology. I've also heard that another benefit of patent prosecution is more regular hours and better work/life balance.

Op--I work in patent litigation. Prosecution is mindnumbingly dry and so are patent prosecutors. You'll want to gouge your fkn eyes out if you prosecute. Good luck!!

I'm working in patent lit right now, and I'm actually at one of the rare big firms that has both lit and prosecution work so I've seen some of both. Honestly, you're right that some people do like patent pros and find it interesting - these people tend to be former engineers. Thing is, it's pretty rare at the larger firms and that's because it isn't supported by the business model: in huge litigations, you can bill hundreds of thousands of dollars for your hours working on largely jurisdictional, choice of law and evidentiary questions before you get to the merits of the infringement and/or invalidity. Huge companies like Ebay, Apple, Oracle, Microsoft, ect. have sizeable budgets set aside to handle our rates, and the outcomes are typically high enough stakes that it's worth it for them.

On the other hand, smaller companies trying to push through USPTO examination can't carry the same freight, and thus, the work is less lucrative and (despite what the firm might say outwardly), somewhat discouraged. You don't see many partners that paved their partnership track on patent prosecution work for start-ups; even firms that manage thousands of portfolios make most of their PPP on lit.

So, you'd want to go to a patent boutique where the billing rates conform to the prosecution model (and still do litigations). You said you don't have a degree in CS or EE, so I'm not sure about hiring practices at those firms right now; however, it might not be what you're expecting.

[NYSprague]

Please don't waste your time and money going to law school. I wouldn't go if I were you and had a solid job and a happy life.

Defer if you want to.

You might PM rayiner and desert Fox, both of whom are engineers now practicing law.

[Laser Lady]

Is it really that boring? I've heard that the work is actually quite interesting, especially if you do prosecution because everything that comes across your desk is brand new technology. I've also heard that another benefit of patent prosecution is more regular hours and better work/life balance.

I love science. I like learning about new technologies. I hated the four months I spent working for the patent prosecution group of an IP boutique firm during my 2L summer. There was nothing at all interesting about the kind of work I was doing. For instance, one of the time-consuming tasks assigned to me was checking through hundred-page patent applications to make sure that we always had the right chemical formula in our descriptions of the chemical we wanted to patent, since the partner who drafted the patents was sometimes rather sloppy in his copy-and-paste jobs. I did this for about fifty patents, all for nearly identical chemicals in the same chemical family. It did not get more interesting with time, and I certainly did not learn anything new. The partners' work was probably a little more interesting, but not by much.

Yeah, you've got a good deal on law school costs, but if something won't improve your life, there's no point in buying it, deal or not. If you owned a BMW, would you give it away to buy a Yugo, just because someone offered you a good deal on the Yugo?

[BNL]

Update: Taking into consideration all your warnings (namely that biglaw crushes the soul), I am seriously considering withdrawing. Before I do, can any of the 12 people who voted Go share their reasoning? Do you think the others are exaggerating how awful biglaw is? Are the hours that ridiculous? Is the work really that mind-numbing? I've spoken to a few people that really seem to enjoy patent and IP work. Are they the minority?

I should also add that my current employer is pretty bad when it comes to career development. Promotions are based more on seniority and who you're friends with than on job performance. On the flip side, the industry and the company are characterized by a huge bimodal age distribution, so it follows that eventually there will be a significant leadership vacuum.

Please help...

[boozehound]

Dude, I just showed up, but WTF is the problem? Go to UChicago Law. I've got a PhD in BME and just finished law school. Now I'm set up to work in SoCal for triple what I made in research. Go to law school. Law is where the money is. Research blows ... forever!

[alkaseltzer]

You should make your own decision based on what you want in life, what you would like to do in a job, etc. However, I just want to say this. This board has a lot of speculation and less facts. Don't make your decision based on this board. The majority of them do not know an inch about patent law and even if they do, they have very little experience in it. Go talk to an alum from your school and just e-mail them, asking them to sit down with you and talk to you about the field. Don't ponder over indirect advice.

[bizzybone1313]

You should sit down and write on a piece a paper the pros and cons of your decision:

Pros:

-Potential to make a lot more money.
-More prestigious career.
-Ability to start your own law firm/business later on.
-Cheap price to attend Chicago.

Cons:

-Significant risk in going into oversaturated legal market.
-You could get fired/laid off from Big Law if you aren't good at what you do.
-It could be very difficult to go back to engineering after having obtained a law degree.
-You can't buy a house anytime soon at record low interest rates.
-You will lose a lot of income in the years you won't be working.
-Your quality of life is going to be very bad for years or even decades to come.
-You will be entering a much more stressful career than what you currently have.
-There is more to life than making money.

I wish I had done this when I was pondering whether or not to quit my consulting job a few years back. I made a bad decision and will be paying for it for a long time. You should really defer a year if at all possible and think about it some more. Attending law school for you is a really tough decision. Right now you are probably somewhere in the 70-80% percentile of income. That's not a bad place to be at your age.