Top 5 Student at T14 Taking Questions Forum

[michaelbluth]

Around the same realm at my respective school (but not a T14 by any stretch) and slightly concerned about being able to keep the motivation through 2L year, especially considering my grades went down slightly this past semester (but still kept the same rank). What caused you to stay motivated this year? Did you have to do anything different to keep the motivation? Did you notice others around you that were around the top slipping more than you did? Did you spend as much time on classes 2L as you did 1L year or less because of extracurriculars/LR?

I'm a rising 3L in OP's position at a T2.

My grades tend to be slightly better in spring which I attribute largely to mild seasonal depression that hits every fall/winter.

At any rate, rank and GPA have moved up since 1L, even with a .02 GPA dip 2L fall. I found motivation in 2L to be easier because I got to choose my classes and schedule, thus was able to cater to my interests and strengths. It's a lot easier to stay motivated when you actually care about the material. Also, I think being insanely busy was good for my motivation. (Fall was 3 classes, internship, paid job, note, weekly LR assignments. Spring was 5 classes, job, weekly LR assignments). When I genuinely don't have time to procrastinate or break down, the fear of dropping one of the dozen balls I'm juggling keeps me going. My motivation became very focused on the day-to-day. "I must finish these things so that I can get dinner with best friend when she arrives in an hour" or "I have tickets to x tomorrow, if I don't keep working, I can't go." I kept organized, broke tasks into small pieces, and set manageable goals while still giving myself time to do things like go to shows, eat out, watch TV, and occasionally get drunk on weekends.

I think the other thing about 2L is that you're no longer learning how to do law school. You know what to expect, know how you learn, etc. If you're in the top of your class, the vast majority of your classmates are still struggling to learn how to get As instead of Bs in law school. You know how to do it by this point. Once I let go of the anxiety and stress of 1L, I got a lot more efficient, and it's easier to be motivated when you're working efficiently because 1) you spend fewer hours working and, 2) you don't get bummed out by your own perception that you're wasting time.

[AllTheLawz]

I don't have a lot of free time. My typical weekday work from 5:30 a.m.-10:30 p.m. I am doing work all day except for when I am in classes or eating lunch and dinner. Sometimes I work out I guess. I sleep in on the weekends, but I generally work most of the day on Saturday and Sunday too. I know I work too hard and could get away with working less. But if I'm not working, I stress out about not working. So I might as well work.

A schedule like this for a law student seems more indicative of bad work habits (i.e. inefficiency and lack of prioritization by impact) than incredible work ethic. Are you worried at all about career success and how working as you do now will translate to the working world?

[ph14]

I don't have a lot of free time. My typical weekday work from 5:30 a.m.-10:30 p.m. I am doing work all day except for when I am in classes or eating lunch and dinner. Sometimes I work out I guess. I sleep in on the weekends, but I generally work most of the day on Saturday and Sunday too. I know I work too hard and could get away with working less. But if I'm not working, I stress out about not working. So I might as well work.

A schedule like this for a law student seems more indicative of bad work habits (i.e. inefficiency and lack of prioritization by impact) than incredible work ethic. Are you worried at all about career success and how working as you do now will translate to the working world?

Or it's indicative of OP knowing what works for him and what doesn't, and doing what works for him.

[foundingfather]

great thread. tagged

[d cooper]

If you have a possibility to get SCOTUS, you're probably HYS, but who knows.

Pretty good mix of T14: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la ... ted_States.

[AllTheLawz]

I don't have a lot of free time. My typical weekday work from 5:30 a.m.-10:30 p.m. I am doing work all day except for when I am in classes or eating lunch and dinner. Sometimes I work out I guess. I sleep in on the weekends, but I generally work most of the day on Saturday and Sunday too. I know I work too hard and could get away with working less. But if I'm not working, I stress out about not working. So I might as well work.

A schedule like this for a law student seems more indicative of bad work habits (i.e. inefficiency and lack of prioritization by impact) than incredible work ethic. Are you worried at all about career success and how working as you do now will translate to the working world?

Or it's indicative of OP knowing what works for him and what doesn't, and doing what works for him.

Was more interested in the OP's view of how they plan on approaching the working world given they currently spend 100+ hours/week on school work. Just trying to get an idea of their overall philosophy.

[d cooper]

You mentioned doing LEEWS during 0L. Did you actually use the method during school?

[NYULawStudent123]

I don't have a lot of free time. My typical weekday work from 5:30 a.m.-10:30 p.m. I am doing work all day except for when I am in classes or eating lunch and dinner. Sometimes I work out I guess. I sleep in on the weekends, but I generally work most of the day on Saturday and Sunday too. I know I work too hard and could get away with working less. But if I'm not working, I stress out about not working. So I might as well work.

A schedule like this for a law student seems more indicative of bad work habits (i.e. inefficiency and lack of prioritization by impact) than incredible work ethic. Are you worried at all about career success and how working as you do now will translate to the working world?

Or it's indicative of OP knowing what works for him and what doesn't, and doing what works for him.

Was more interested in the OP's view of how they plan on approaching the working world given they currently spend 100+ hours/week on school work. Just trying to get an idea of their overall philosophy.

Overworking doesn't equal inefficient working. It means he overworks, which will likely be helpful in the real world where they expect you to work tons of hours. Just my two cents.

But an FYI, it's possible to do very well without overworking at all, so by no means is overworking a must.

[ymmv]

A schedule like this for a law student seems more indicative of bad work habits (i.e. inefficiency and lack of prioritization by impact) than incredible work ethic. Are you worried at all about career success and how working as you do now will translate to the working world?

Or it's indicative of OP knowing what works for him and what doesn't, and doing what works for him.

Was more interested in the OP's view of how they plan on approaching the working world given they currently spend 100+ hours/week on school work. Just trying to get an idea of their overall philosophy.

Overworking doesn't equal inefficient working. It means he overworks, which will likely be helpful in the real world where they expect you to work tons of hours. Just my two cents.

But an FYI, it's possible to do very well without overworking at all, so by no means is overworking a must.

More likely it means he will burn out in his first year of biglaw or before he ever even gets there. Anyone pulling an absurdly unnecessary schedule like that in LS is on track to live of life full of heart attacks and broken relationships.

[NYULawStudent123]

Or it's indicative of OP knowing what works for him and what doesn't, and doing what works for him.[/quote]

Was more interested in the OP's view of how they plan on approaching the working world given they currently spend 100+ hours/week on school work. Just trying to get an idea of their overall philosophy.[/quote]


Overworking doesn't equal inefficient working. It means he overworks, which will likely be helpful in the real world where they expect you to work tons of hours. Just my two cents.

But an FYI, it's possible to do very well without overworking at all, so by no means is overworking a must.[/quote]

More likely it means he will burn out in his first year of biglaw or before he ever even gets there. Anyone pulling an absurdly unnecessary schedule like that in LS is on track to live of life full of heart attacks and broken relationships.[/quote]


That's assuming he can't handle the amount of work he does. He did say that not working causes him stress, so...

[ymmv]

That's assuming he can't handle the amount of work he does. He did say that not working causes him stress, so...

Clearly he's not handling it. He's stretching LS work into twice as much labor as it should be and evidently has no social life to speak of. This is not indicative of good time management skills or sensible work ethic and almost certainly a sign of workaholism and inevitable burnout.

[d cooper]

That's assuming he can't handle the amount of work he does. He did say that not working causes him stress, so...

Clearly he's not handling it. He's stretching LS work into twice as much labor as it should be and evidently has no social life to speak of. This is not indicative of good time management skills or sensible work ethic and almost certainly a sign of workaholism and inevitable burnout.

[NYULawStudent123]

That's assuming he can't handle the amount of work he does. He did say that not working causes him stress, so...

Clearly he's not handling it. He's stretching LS work into twice as much labor as it should be and evidently has no social life to speak of. This is not indicative of good time management skills or sensible work ethic and almost certainly a sign of workaholism and inevitable burnout.

Yet, there are people who spend their life with that kind of work ethic.

What's your work ethic like? Has it worked for you?

[ymmv]

That's assuming he can't handle the amount of work he does. He did say that not working causes him stress, so...

Clearly he's not handling it. He's stretching LS work into twice as much labor as it should be and evidently has no social life to speak of. This is not indicative of good time management skills or sensible work ethic and almost certainly a sign of workaholism and inevitable burnout.

Yet, there are people who spend their life with that kind of work ethic.

What's your work ethic like? Has it worked for you?

I mean I am not in the top 5 of my class but I'm probably somewhere in 10-20%.
I don't think I ever got up for LS earlier than 7 except during exams. I had plenty of time to work out, was heavily involved in a number of student org board positions and pro bonos, and maintained a long-term relationship. I regularly went to social events and hung out with non-LS friends pretty much every weekend. Had time to visit family and didn't do much LS work at all over breaks.

So yeah, it's worked out. I probably could've pulled myself up to top 1-10% if I had killed myself, eliminated my social life, and ignored friends and family members (including probably wrecking my relationship), but I don't expect it would have made a colossal difference for employment and I really don't think that kind of lifestyle is long term sustainable - I'm almost certain it would subtract from the number of years I'll be able to survive biglaw.

Anyway, I also think it's an issue of diminishing returns. Once you get to the point of working twice as hard for only a marginal increase in grade performance I just don't think you can justify the consequences.

ETA:
Anecdotally, the only guy in my class I know of who worked as long and hard as this guy describes did pretty horribly on exams. There is probably some element of natural (lack of) skill involved, but it does go to show that the workaholic method doesn't work for everyone. LS is a heavy degree of figuring out what works for you and what you can handle, but when it gets to the point where you literally don't have a life outside of reading cases I'm inclined to think you're doing it wrong. Just imo.

[coachcowher]

Were you able to find time for any extracurriculars during 1L? Have you been able to work part-time at all during law school or is that a crazy idea?

[NYULawStudent123]

[/quote] Clearly he's not handling it. He's stretching LS work into twice as much labor as it should be and evidently has no social life to speak of. This is not indicative of good time management skills or sensible work ethic and almost certainly a sign of workaholism and inevitable burnout.[/quote][/quote]

Yet, there are people who spend their life with that kind of work ethic.

What's your work ethic like? Has it worked for you?[/quote]

I mean I am not in the top 5 of my class but I'm probably somewhere in 10-20%.
I don't think I ever got up for LS earlier than 7 except during exams. I had plenty of time to work out, was heavily involved in a number of student org board positions and pro bonos, and maintained a long-term relationship. I regularly went to social events and hung out with non-LS friends pretty much every weekend. Had time to visit family and didn't do much LS work at all over breaks.

So yeah, it's worked out. I probably could've pulled myself up to top 1-10% if I had killed myself, eliminated my social life, and ignored friends and family members (including probably wrecking my relationship), but I don't expect it would have made a colossal difference for employment and I really don't think that kind of lifestyle is long term sustainable - I'm almost certain it would subtract from the number of years I'll be able to survive biglaw.

Anyway, I also think it's an issue of diminishing returns. Once you get to the point of working twice as hard for only a marginal increase in grade performance I just don't think you can justify the consequences.[/quote]


Right, so all of that worked for you. What school are you at? Or what range?

But for him, what he did, worked. Maybe he is an introvert and isn't looking for much of a social life. Not everyone has the same needs and desires as you, and many like you, have. For him, the diminishing returns were worth it.

There are many ways different than both you and him that have worked for people. Heck, I would spend 2-3 hours watching TV with my girlfriend 2 days before finals, and that worked for me. Everyone has something that works for them. I just think we should be more openminded to the type of approaches that work for different people.

[ymmv]

Right, so all of that worked for you. What school are you at? Or what range?

I've said the school in other threads, but it's an upper T14.

But for him, what he did, worked. Maybe he is an introvert and isn't looking for much of a social life. Not everyone has the same needs and desires as you, and many like you, have. For him, the diminishing returns were worth it.

Maybe. But introverts still have need of friendships, albeit usually fewer of them and with less frequent interaction.

There are many ways different than both you and him that have worked for people. Heck, I would spend 2-3 hours watching TV with my girlfriend 2 days before finals, and that worked for me. Everyone has something that works for them. I just think we should be more openminded to the type of approaches that work for different people.

Yeah, I agree that it's a matter of knowing yourself. I'm just not sure the average 0L should be advised to enter with the above mindset first thing.

[NYULawStudent123]

Right, so all of that worked for you. What school are you at? Or what range?

I've said the school in other threads, but it's an upper T14.

But for him, what he did, worked. Maybe he is an introvert and isn't looking for much of a social life. Not everyone has the same needs and desires as you, and many like you, have. For him, the diminishing returns were worth it.

Maybe. But introverts still have need of friendships, albeit usually fewer of them and with less frequent interaction.

There are many ways different than both you and him that have worked for people. Heck, I would spend 2-3 hours watching TV with my girlfriend 2 days before finals, and that worked for me. Everyone has something that works for them. I just think we should be more openminded to the type of approaches that work for different people.

Yeah, I agree that it's a matter of knowing yourself. I'm just not sure the average 0L should be advised to enter with the above mindset first thing.

Does upper mena 10-14 range or 1-6 range? #strangequestions

Yeah, I mean he could still have his friends who he studies with and stuff and hangs out with during lulls. And I think he tried to make clear that this worked for him, but wouldn't work for everyone. I mean, if I were to give 0L's advice, I would advise against my study habits, as most people would end up in bottom 20% with them, so it's just a matter of how you portray your advice...

[JVK]

Thanks for doing this!

You mentioned a study partner who had the material down cold, but ended up around median for that particular class. You've consistently placed at the top of your classes, however. What do you think made the difference between you and her? Trying to figure out exactly what sorts of things a professor might want to see, a writing approach during the test, etc.?

[toothbrush]

Does upper mena 10-14 range or 1-6 range? #strangequestions

You can easily find what school he goes to by checking his history. Stop being a lazy fuck when it doesn't really matter.

[rayiner]

I wouldn't get too fixated on the 5am to 10pm thing. I think it's generally true that as you go from top 10% to top 5% to top 5 people, you find a higher proportion of people who work a lot and read the cases carefully. E.g. If you recognize that a fact pattern on an exam poses an issue left open in a case you studied, that kind of thing separates A exams from A+ exams. However, my educated guess is that OP's work hours are unusual even for students in the top 5. You can read and brief every case and do several iterations of our outlines on a reasonable 9-7 sort of schedule (or 2 pm to midnight as the case may be!)

But at the same time, I see no reason to criticize OP's work hours. Do what works for you.

[toothbrush]

Do what works for you.

This is really TCR and the reason that these threads, albeit promising, are always a bit pointless. Law school is about doing what works for you. I was able to do well at my t14 doing nearly half the work as others - never reading casebooks - never briefing - etc. But that is just the way I study and I am able to prepare for exams last minute with great retention and perform. For OP he does the complete opposite, it seems. That doesn't mean one way is better than the other - there is just one way that works better for ourselves.

To me 5a-10p sounds absurd, but it works, so congrats.

[foundingfather]

out of curiousity, how do you take notes? i've never used OneNote or anything similar; I prefer handwritten notes/outlines since I just seem to blank out after typing shit.

[toothbrush]

out of curiousity, how do you take notes? i've never used OneNote or anything similar; I prefer handwritten notes/outlines since I just seem to blank out after typing shit.

i know someone in op's position at a t14 who hand-wrote his notes.

just do you.

[jingosaur]

What type of academic skill sets do most of the top students have? Are they great at English, have solid logical skills, or is it kind of a mixed bag?