Is clerking overrated? Forum

[Elston Gunn]

This makes sense only if your clerking salary + bonus is more than your exit option salary.

You're forgetting raises (essentially the differential between year 4 pay and year 1 pay):

Clerk+Bonus-->Year2-->Year3-->Year4-->Quit/Exit
Year1-->Year2-->Year3-->Quit/Exit-->Exit

But yea it's hard to figure out whether it's worth it in advance and probably not all that useful.

So is it fair to say that if clerking is something we think we'd enjoy doing and our firm's cool with it, we should go and do it, but it's probably not ultimately all that hurtful or helpful in the long-term?

Unless you've got specific goals, yeah, that's my read.

[OutCold]

This makes sense only if your clerking salary + bonus is more than your exit option salary.

You're forgetting raises (essentially the differential between year 4 pay and year 1 pay):

Clerk+Bonus-->Year2-->Year3-->Year4-->Quit/Exit
Year1-->Year2-->Year3-->Quit/Exit-->Exit

But yea it's hard to figure out whether it's worth it in advance and probably not all that useful.

So is it fair to say that if clerking is something we think we'd enjoy doing and our firm's cool with it, we should go and do it, but it's probably not ultimately all that hurtful or helpful in the long-term?

Unless you've got specific goals, yeah, that's my read.

Agreed. Hard to say if clerking is going to make much of an impact on your career, but I think it is safe to say that (assuming you've already lined up big law) it won't have a negative impact.

[NYSprague]

I don't know. I think clerkship are a long term intangible plus, but I'm in corporate so I know only what I've heard. I know there are firms who strongly prefer clerks, but you might be in one of those firms anyway.

[sundance95]

For those who are taking the 'careerwise, clerking is meh' position, do you believe that is true for both CoA and DCt clerkships?

Also, something I haven't seen discussed yet; one big benefit of clerking that I hear about is that it plugs you into networks, i.e., that you get a major mentor (the judge) and are brought into the fold of the clerking 'family.' Is that bullshit?

[A. Nony Mouse]

For those who are taking the 'careerwise, clerking is meh' position, do you believe that is true for both CoA and DCt clerkships?

Also, something I haven't seen discussed yet; one big benefit of clerking that I hear about is that it plugs you into networks, i.e., that you get a major mentor (the judge) and are brought into the fold of the clerking 'family.' Is that bullshit?

I don't think it is (though obvious bias). I mean, you make connections at a firm, too, it's just the clerkship connections are different and you won't make them any other way. The precise value is going to depend a lot on the judge and former clerks, though, and how much they offer in what markets.

[09042014]

For those who are taking the 'careerwise, clerking is meh' position, do you believe that is true for both CoA and DCt clerkships?

Also, something I haven't seen discussed yet; one big benefit of clerking that I hear about is that it plugs you into networks, i.e., that you get a major mentor (the judge) and are brought into the fold of the clerking 'family.' Is that bullshit?

There are some jobs that defacto require a clerkship. But that is mostly appellate work and high end lit boutiques. If you want that, there is a clear benefit.

But I think a D. Montana clerkship is god damn useless to someone.

I can see why local clerkships might be useful. We've got a guy who did E.D. Texas were we do work. And that is valuable.

But TLS overvalues a clerkship. I don't know for sure, but I've heard clerkships got way way more competitive after the legal crash in late 08 early 09.

[Holly Golightly]

If clerking opens up doors to non-biglaw legal jobs, and most people will either want or be forced into non-biglaw legal jobs, then the fact that clerking doesn't drastically increase partnership odds doesn't seem particularly important to me.

I really doubt it (a significant amount of) opens doors.

It may not always, but it certainly can.

Also, it's the best fucking job ever.

[KD35]

If clerking opens up doors to non-biglaw legal jobs, and most people will either want or be forced into non-biglaw legal jobs, then the fact that clerking doesn't drastically increase partnership odds doesn't seem particularly important to me.

I really doubt it (a significant amount of) opens doors.

It may not always, but it certainly can.

Also, it's the best fucking job ever.

Strong phrasing for what seems like just a year of doing legal research & writing for a small "firm" (chambers).

[Elston Gunn]

Think it's important to be clear about what question you're answering. In my obviously not all that informed opinion, people who can clerk, don't want corporate, and won't have to upset their lives to do it, should take the chance in the large majority of situations. If you already have the resume for a clerkship, I think the likely intangible benefits make it a relative no brainer.

I don't think, however, that people should make school choices on the basis of wanting to clerk. I mean, I do think it's a genuine plus that HYS gets so many clerkships, but at this point I think my ability to get a DC firm that does the work I want to do was a lot bigger benefit than my ability to get a clerkship. It's just not worth *that* much, unless I guess you've got a PhD and a research agenda, and are sure you want to be an academic, or maaaybe if you're absolutely positive you want to be a federal government litigator.

[Holly Golightly]

Strong phrasing for what seems like just a year of doing legal research & writing for a small "firm" (chambers).

lolk

[sundance95]

Strong phrasing for what seems like just a year of doing legal research & writing for a small "firm" (chambers).

lolk

Would love it if you would expand on this.

[09042014]

Think it's important to be clear about what question you're answering. In my obviously not all that informed opinion, people who can clerk, don't want corporate, and won't have to upset their lives to do it, should take the chance in the large majority of situations. If you already have the resume for a clerkship, I think the likely intangible benefits make it a relative no brainer.

I don't think, however, that people should make school choices on the basis of wanting to clerk. I mean, I do think it's a genuine plus that HYS gets so many clerkships, but at this point I think my ability to get a DC firm that does the work I want to do was a lot bigger benefit than my ability to get a clerkship. It's just not worth *that* much, unless I guess you've got a PhD and a research agenda, and are sure you want to be an academic, or maaaybe if you're absolutely positive you want to be a federal government litigator.

I'm just not sure the intangibles are all that great.

I'm sure it's 5x better than biglaw.

[Holly Golightly]

Strong phrasing for what seems like just a year of doing legal research & writing for a small "firm" (chambers).

lolk

Would love it if you would expand on this.

It is absolutely nothing like working for a firm. If you like the academic side of law and figuring out the right answers to things as opposed to just arguing whatever is best for your client, it is a wonderful experience. So is getting to know a judge and how things work behind the scenes in chambers. In federal district/COA clerkships you also get to look at a huge range of different types of cases. And writing opinions is way different than writing briefs.

[Elston Gunn]

Think it's important to be clear about what question you're answering. In my obviously not all that informed opinion, people who can clerk, don't want corporate, and won't have to upset their lives to do it, should take the chance in the large majority of situations. If you already have the resume for a clerkship, I think the likely intangible benefits make it a relative no brainer.

I don't think, however, that people should make school choices on the basis of wanting to clerk. I mean, I do think it's a genuine plus that HYS gets so many clerkships, but at this point I think my ability to get a DC firm that does the work I want to do was a lot bigger benefit than my ability to get a clerkship. It's just not worth *that* much, unless I guess you've got a PhD and a research agenda, and are sure you want to be an academic, or maaaybe if you're absolutely positive you want to be a federal government litigator.

I'm just not sure the intangibles are all that great.

I'm sure it's 5x better than biglaw.

I'm skeptical too, but enough people say it's makes a difference and the downside is low, so why not? (Also including the it being an amazing job as one of the intangibles.)

[09042014]

Think it's important to be clear about what question you're answering. In my obviously not all that informed opinion, people who can clerk, don't want corporate, and won't have to upset their lives to do it, should take the chance in the large majority of situations. If you already have the resume for a clerkship, I think the likely intangible benefits make it a relative no brainer.

I don't think, however, that people should make school choices on the basis of wanting to clerk. I mean, I do think it's a genuine plus that HYS gets so many clerkships, but at this point I think my ability to get a DC firm that does the work I want to do was a lot bigger benefit than my ability to get a clerkship. It's just not worth *that* much, unless I guess you've got a PhD and a research agenda, and are sure you want to be an academic, or maaaybe if you're absolutely positive you want to be a federal government litigator.

I'm just not sure the intangibles are all that great.

I'm sure it's 5x better than biglaw.

I'm skeptical too, but enough people say it's makes a difference and the downside is low, so why not? (Also including the it being an amazing job as one of the intangibles.)

But those people are all clerkship gunners. People say the same shit about law review, and that is a downright lie.

[sundance95]

It is absolutely nothing like working for a firm. If you like the academic side of law and figuring out the right answers to things as opposed to just arguing whatever is best for your client, it is a wonderful experience. So is getting to know a judge and how things work behind the scenes in chambers. In federal district/COA clerkships you also get to look at a huge range of different types of cases. And writing opinions is way different than writing briefs.

Tyft

[Holly Golightly]

I'm sure it's 5x better than biglaw.

I'm skeptical too, but enough people say it's makes a difference and the downside is low, so why not? (Also including the it being an amazing job as one of the intangibles.)

But those people are all clerkship gunners. People say the same shit about law review, and that is a downright lie.

I got an interview that I am fairly certain I never would have gotten without my clerkship.

[Elston Gunn]

But those people are all clerkship gunners. People say the same shit about law review, and that is a downright lie.

It's not a lie for clerking! I mean, it's impossible to know. Poking holes in the law student assumption that clerking is the ultimate golden ticket is a good thing, but I don't think a few anecdotes that people who've clerked don't appear to have advanced further than those who haven't at a few firms is enough evidence to just assume that it doesn't matter at all.

[09042014]

But those people are all clerkship gunners. People say the same shit about law review, and that is a downright lie.

It's not a lie for clerking! I mean, it's impossible to know. Poking holes in the law student assumption that clerking is the ultimate golden ticket is a good thing, but I don't think a few anecdotes that people who've clerked don't appear to have advanced further than those who haven't at a few firms is enough evidence to just assume that it doesn't matter at all.

I don't know either way, but it just doesn't seem earthshattering. But relying on law students prestige meters is crazy.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Strong phrasing for what seems like just a year of doing legal research & writing for a small "firm" (chambers).

lolk

Would love it if you would expand on this.

It's just completely different. You're looking at litigation from an entirely different perspective. There's a huge range of "legal research and writing" projects and chambers isn't anything like a firm. Writing to determine the outcome of a case is very different from writing to support one element of one motion or answer a client's random question. The kind of work chambers sees is totally different from small firm work.

I mean, if you hate legal research and writing, you won't like clerking, but you likely won't like litigation in a firm, either. That doesn't mean clerking is like working for a small firm

And some clerkships can be miserable, but a decent to good clerkship is one of the best jobs around.

[rpupkin]

It is absolutely nothing like working for a firm. If you like the academic side of law and figuring out the right answers to things as opposed to just arguing whatever is best for your client, it is a wonderful experience. So is getting to know a judge and how things work behind the scenes in chambers. In federal district/COA clerkships you also get a huge range of cases and law. And writing opinions is way different than writing briefs.

Another difference is that you are way closer to the action as a clerk. If you're a junior associate at a big firm, you're probably not the principal drafter of major motions and briefs. As a clerk, by contrast, you draft opinions. You actually help decide cases. In some instances, your ideas contribute to the development of the law. At most law firms, it will be several years (at least) before you get comparable substantive responsibility as an advocate.

[Elston Gunn]

But those people are all clerkship gunners. People say the same shit about law review, and that is a downright lie.

It's not a lie for clerking! I mean, it's impossible to know. Poking holes in the law student assumption that clerking is the ultimate golden ticket is a good thing, but I don't think a few anecdotes that people who've clerked don't appear to have advanced further than those who haven't at a few firms is enough evidence to just assume that it doesn't matter at all.

I don't know either way, but it just doesn't seem earthshattering. But relying on law students prestige meters is crazy.

Sure, we're in agreement. Definitely not earth-shattering. I wasn't talking about what law students say, but actual lawyers, though the people who actually clerk obviously have an interest in justifying their decision/were clerkship gunners back in the day.

[09042014]

But those people are all clerkship gunners. People say the same shit about law review, and that is a downright lie.

It's not a lie for clerking! I mean, it's impossible to know. Poking holes in the law student assumption that clerking is the ultimate golden ticket is a good thing, but I don't think a few anecdotes that people who've clerked don't appear to have advanced further than those who haven't at a few firms is enough evidence to just assume that it doesn't matter at all.

I don't know either way, but it just doesn't seem earthshattering. But relying on law students prestige meters is crazy.

Sure, we're in agreement. Definitely not earth-shattering. I wasn't talking about what law students say, but actual lawyers, though the people who actually clerk obviously have an interest in justifying their decision/were clerkship gunners back in the day.

I've only seen former clerks be really impressed by it. Nobody else seems to care. Then again that's worth something because its not rare to meet a former clerk.

[rayiner]

It's overrated, in the sense that law students care about it more than is warranted. Most people I know in C/O 2012 are going back to their 2L SA firms. But several used their clerkship to get a different job or change markets. There's a few specific areas where I think a clerkship can really help: 1) switching markets to where your clerkship is located; 2) getting a job at a litigation boutique; 3) getting a job in an appellate group; 4) getting another shot at academic recruiting.

That said, Holly is right in that it's a pretty neat job, though if you do big law first the pay-cut is hard to swallow. You really get to think about your cases and take time to perfect your writing. There's little time for that at a firm.

[rayiner]

Basically, outside of giving you a real shot at AUSA/DOJ, it does seem pretty marginal. Sure, doing a feeder/D.C. Cir will give you a decent shot at being in an appellate group, which would be cool I guess if that's your thing (though hard to imagine how you make a whole career out if it).

You might need SCOTUS/feeder/DC Circuit to join a V100 DC appellate group, but most of the practitioners in front of most of the Courts of Appeals work at local/regional firms. Any COA should give you a decent shot at such firms in the same region.