What is Law School really like? Forum

[DELG]

Sometimes, in negotiations, you get to make animals out of construction paper. I made a snake.

Whenever you see people participating in a class that appears to involve doing incredibly asinine shit, sign up for it immediately.

A solid rule of thumb.

If you hear gunners complaining about a class being "pointless" or "not how law school is supposed to be," sign up immediately.

[DELG]

If you hear someone who ran for LR EIC say they're "really excited" about a class you're in, drop immediately.

[ymmv]

Sometimes, in negotiations, you get to make animals out of construction paper. I made a snake.

Whenever you see people participating in a class that appears to involve doing incredibly asinine shit, sign up for it immediately.

A solid rule of thumb.

If you hear gunners complaining about a class being "pointless" or "not how law school is supposed to be," sign up immediately.

This also seems to be reliable code for "take-home essay final with no deadline."

[Ricky-Bobby]

The problem with law school classes is that, with some exceptions, very little effort is made to correlate what you're learning to real-world application. So most classes end up being kind of useless, especially first-year classes.

This. For me, less real world application = more philosophical masturbation = more participation by my most annoying classmates = more of me wondering why I didn't join the circus.

TBF you go to a school that prides itself on philosophical masturbation

Sometimes, in negotiations, you get to make animals out of construction paper. I made a snake.

Whenever you see people participating in a class that appears to involve doing incredibly asinine shit, sign up for it immediately.

I want a Law and Home Economics course

[elterrible78]

The problem with law school classes is that, with some exceptions, very little effort is made to correlate what you're learning to real-world application. So most classes end up being kind of useless, especially first-year classes.

This. For me, less real world application = more philosophical masturbation = more participation by my most annoying classmates = more of me wondering why I didn't join the circus.

TBF you go to a school that prides itself on philosophical masturbation

Uh-huh.

[A. Nony Mouse]

if you use class time to build your outline with your particular professor's analysis of each case, rather than trying to ace cold calls and follow the bullshit streaming from other students, it will be more productive.

I think the suggestion is not "zone out entirely in class and just work on your outline," but rather "take notes with outlining in mind." In other words, it's helpful for making your outline later if your notes already include, for each case, the holding, key facts, professor's "take" on it, as well as general things like what types of policy arguments does the prof tend to emphasize, what themes seem to be running though the class.

I agree with the above - I found the actual process of outlining at the end of the semester not helpful (I spent more time on format than learning), so I'd build the outline into my class notes/take notes into an outline, and then I just studied from my notes. It's not that I never added/subtracted stuff at the end of the semester, but it was much more minimal than if I outlined everything from scratch. (I'm also someone who takes a lot of notes and always has - it helps me pay attention - but my notes became much more the points identified above, and didn't include what students were opining about a case.)

[jbagelboy]

if you use class time to build your outline with your particular professor's analysis of each case, rather than trying to ace cold calls and follow the bullshit streaming from other students, it will be more productive.

I think the suggestion is not "zone out entirely in class and just work on your outline," but rather "take notes with outlining in mind." In other words, it's helpful for making your outline later if your notes already include, for each case, the holding, key facts, professor's "take" on it, as well as general things like what types of policy arguments does the prof tend to emphasize, what themes seem to be running though the class.

I agree with the above - I found the actual process of outlining at the end of the semester not helpful (I spent more time on format than learning), so I'd build the outline into my class notes/take notes into an outline, and then I just studied from my notes. It's not that I never added/subtracted stuff at the end of the semester, but it was much more minimal than if I outlined everything from scratch. (I'm also someone who takes a lot of notes and always has - it helps me pay attention - but my notes became much more the points identified above, and didn't include what students were opining about a case.)

Right, all of this is what I was trying to express. I was not suggesting paying no attention in class (although that's inevitable some days), quite the opposite. The first month or two you'll have no idea what to do anyway so observation is key; after that, see the above comments. I did end up spending a ton of time working on my outlines in the month before and during finals, but a lot of that is formatting (I'm undecided on whether outline formatting into easily traceable indentation schemes is a waste of time or a helpful substantive exercise) and making additions after reviewing practice exams and seeing the major holes from my class notes.

I also had to miss 3-5 classes in each course spring semester due to job interviewing and moot court travel - everyone will ultimately miss a few classes - and I took direct notes from the casebook and compared to previous year's outlines to fill in.

[johnnyquest]

I agree with the above - I found the actual process of outlining at the end of the semester not helpful (I spent more time on format than learning), so I'd build the outline into my class notes/take notes into an outline, and then I just studied from my notes. It's not that I never added/subtracted stuff at the end of the semester, but it was much more minimal than if I outlined everything from scratch. (I'm also someone who takes a lot of notes and always has - it helps me pay attention - but my notes became much more the points identified above, and didn't include what students were opining about a case.)

Are you allowed to electronically record class? I did this a lot in undergrad.

[despina]

I agree with the above - I found the actual process of outlining at the end of the semester not helpful (I spent more time on format than learning), so I'd build the outline into my class notes/take notes into an outline, and then I just studied from my notes. It's not that I never added/subtracted stuff at the end of the semester, but it was much more minimal than if I outlined everything from scratch. (I'm also someone who takes a lot of notes and always has - it helps me pay attention - but my notes became much more the points identified above, and didn't include what students were opining about a case.)

Are you allowed to electronically record class? I did this a lot in undergrad.

Totally depends on the school and the prof. Some profs at our school have all classes recorded officially by the registrar and posted on the course website, some will schedule an official recording on request (for religious holidays or serious illness), some will allow you to do make your own recording if you ask. I wouldn't try to make your own recording without getting the prof's permission.

[johnnyquest]

I agree with the above - I found the actual process of outlining at the end of the semester not helpful (I spent more time on format than learning), so I'd build the outline into my class notes/take notes into an outline, and then I just studied from my notes. It's not that I never added/subtracted stuff at the end of the semester, but it was much more minimal than if I outlined everything from scratch. (I'm also someone who takes a lot of notes and always has - it helps me pay attention - but my notes became much more the points identified above, and didn't include what students were opining about a case.)

Are you allowed to electronically record class? I did this a lot in undergrad.

Totally depends on the school and the prof. Some profs at our school have all classes recorded officially by the registrar and posted on the course website, some will schedule an official recording on request (for religious holidays or serious illness), some will allow you to do make your own recording if you ask. I wouldn't try to make your own recording without getting the prof's permission.

More importantly, will I look like a gunner/nerd if recording on my own?

[despina]

More importantly, will I look like a gunner/nerd if recording on my own?

Possibly, but a) we're all nerds, b) if you have found that recording class helps you learn, then who cares? I can't imagine that it would help me, and I feel a little weird having my cold call face-palm moments recorded for posterity, but we all have different learning styles and anybody who's going to give you a really hard time about something like that is probably a jerk anyway.

[sundontshine]

More importantly, will I look like a gunner/nerd if recording on my own?

Realistically, you won't need to ever re-listen to a lecture, so it's not all that necessary. If you really feel the urge to record your lectures, and get the professor's permission to do so, then you'll look like a gunner/nerd if you put a big tape recorder on your desk. But, I had someone in one of my classes just record lectures using some program on her laptop, and that's probably the way to go since it's more discrete.

[Rahviveh]

I agree with the above - I found the actual process of outlining at the end of the semester not helpful (I spent more time on format than learning), so I'd build the outline into my class notes/take notes into an outline, and then I just studied from my notes. It's not that I never added/subtracted stuff at the end of the semester, but it was much more minimal than if I outlined everything from scratch. (I'm also someone who takes a lot of notes and always has - it helps me pay attention - but my notes became much more the points identified above, and didn't include what students were opining about a case.)

Are you allowed to electronically record class? I did this a lot in undergrad.

Totally depends on the school and the prof. Some profs at our school have all classes recorded officially by the registrar and posted on the course website, some will schedule an official recording on request (for religious holidays or serious illness), some will allow you to do make your own recording if you ask. I wouldn't try to make your own recording without getting the prof's permission.

More importantly, will I look like a gunner/nerd if recording on my own?

You can record a class without anybody noticing with your laptop or your phone.

More importantly, this presumes that you need to pay attention to every detail and hang onto every word that the professor utters. This is unnecessary and counterproductive. Paying attention in class is important, but usually if you miss anything, you can fill in the gaps with supplements or old outlines, or study groups if you participate in one. Yes, it's important to figure out what your professor wants, but it's more efficient to do so by taking old exams.

[TheSpanishMain]

Maybe I'm only saying this because I don't currently have to deal with it, but that actually sounds very interesting.

It might sound that way, but it's not. Class is an enormous waste of time in 99% of all sessions. Even if you start with all the drive and passion in the world, by October you'll be not paying attention and screwing around on the Internet with the rest of your classmates rather than listen to your professor ask questions that are irrelevant for your life or the final exam.

I've heard that noting what the professor focuses on/asks questions about is the best guide for what's likely to be on the final. If it's ephemeral philosophizing bullshit that's irrelevant to real life, then be prepared to make with the ephemeral philosophizing bullshit on the final. Have you noticed professors spending a lot of time covering something and then not having that come up on the final?

[despina]

It might sound that way, but it's not. Class is an enormous waste of time in 99% of all sessions. Even if you start with all the drive and passion in the world, by October you'll be not paying attention and screwing around on the Internet with the rest of your classmates rather than listen to your professor ask questions that are irrelevant for your life or the final exam.

I've heard that noting what the professor focuses on/asks questions about is the best guide for what's likely to be on the final. If it's ephemeral philosophizing bullshit that's irrelevant to real life, then be prepared to make with the ephemeral philosophizing bullshit on the final.

This is my experience, though even profs who spend a lot of time on "philosophizing" are likely to have a significant portion of the exam be doctrinal, especially for 1L classes. So if 75% of the class is philosophizing, expect at least 25% of the exam to require philosophizing. Even if the exam looks all doctrinal (issue spotter), that type of prof might like to see you spend a few sentences on broader implications of your answer (e.g. instead of just "Issue A is likely to turn out B way because of X Y and Z, although the defendant has a strong argument in P if the jurisdiction follows Q case because of similarity R," you could add "this outcome would be unfair to social group J because..." or "this logic creates an unintended complication in K situation because..." depending on what your prof is into / likes to emphasize.

Have you noticed professors spending a lot of time covering something and then not having that come up on the final?

This has never happened to me.

[ymmv]

Maybe I'm only saying this because I don't currently have to deal with it, but that actually sounds very interesting.

It might sound that way, but it's not. Class is an enormous waste of time in 99% of all sessions. Even if you start with all the drive and passion in the world, by October you'll be not paying attention and screwing around on the Internet with the rest of your classmates rather than listen to your professor ask questions that are irrelevant for your life or the final exam.

I've heard that noting what the professor focuses on/asks questions about is the best guide for what's likely to be on the final. If it's ephemeral philosophizing bullshit that's irrelevant to real life, then be prepared to make with the ephemeral philosophizing bullshit on the final. Have you noticed professors spending a lot of time covering something and then not having that come up on the final?

Occasionally, but those tend to be the worst professors, and hopefully you'll realize it early enough to compensate by learning the material from supplements. My worst grade is actually from a class where I realized too late that the professor was spending 80% of class time on tangents that would be utterly irrelevant to the exam, and I found myself spending the last few weeks before finals frantically trying to learn the course through Glannon et al.

A good tell is if your professor is a 4L or has never taught this particular course before. Never, I repeat never trust a brand new law professor to have any clue how to cogently assemble a class, especially if there are no previous outlines to reference.

Again, this is a minority. Most professors, in my experience, spend very little class time on material irrelevant to the exam, and you should pay close attention in class to whatever they spend the most energy on.

[KD35]

Maybe I'm only saying this because I don't currently have to deal with it, but that actually sounds very interesting.

It might sound that way, but it's not. Class is an enormous waste of time in 99% of all sessions. Even if you start with all the drive and passion in the world, by October you'll be not paying attention and screwing around on the Internet with the rest of your classmates rather than listen to your professor ask questions that are irrelevant for your life or the final exam.

I've heard that noting what the professor focuses on/asks questions about is the best guide for what's likely to be on the final. If it's ephemeral philosophizing bullshit that's irrelevant to real life, then be prepared to make with the ephemeral philosophizing bullshit on the final. Have you noticed professors spending a lot of time covering something and then not having that come up on the final?

Occasionally, but those tend to be the worst professors, and hopefully you'll realize it early enough to compensate by learning the material from supplements. My worst grade is actually from a class where I realized too late that the professor was spending 80% of class time on tangents that would be utterly irrelevant to the exam, and I found myself spending the last few weeks before finals frantically trying to learn the course through Glannon et al.

A good tell is if your professor is a 4L or has never taught this particular course before. Never, I repeat never trust a brand new law professor to have any clue how to cogently assemble a class, especially if there are no previous outlines to reference.

Again, this is a minority. Most professors, in my experience, spend very little class time on material irrelevant to the exam, and you should pay close attention in class to whatever they spend the most energy on.

Just reminds me of ConLaw where I spent so much time studying Commerce Clause/DCC because he really emphasized it and it wasn't on the exam AT ALL.

Basically just listen and be wary when you hear a professor hides the ball. Those are the tricky ones that you need to watch out for. Unless it is an obscure class or a class where a professor's personal beliefs can drastically change the law, stick with Supplements.

[ymmv]

Just reminds me of ConLaw where I spent so much time studying Commerce Clause/DCC because he really emphasized it and it wasn't on the exam AT ALL.

Funny enough, this was the case in my Con Law as well, but I just knew somehow that it wasn't going to feature heavily on the exam since he was clearly 10x more passionate about DPC/EPC and state action issues, despite spending so much time on CC.

[jbagelboy]

Have you noticed professors spending a lot of time covering something and then not having that come up on the final?

This has never happened to me.

Here I would diverge pretty strongly. My Contracts professor, for example, did not test on anything he spent time covering in class. The exam was on fraud and parole evidence, when we spent most class time on bargaining/consideration.

In Con law, the commerce clause occupied maybe 1/4 of the curriculum - definitely the largest set of any subject. It was constantly re-emphasized in class. It appeared nowhere on the issue spotters - everything from gibbons to the lopez prongs and sebelius was dead weight knowledge.

In property, we spent weeks on covenants/easements and CIC's. No mention on the exam. Zoning/takings clause issues, which were a huge part of the course, were only referenced tangentially in one question of six on the exam.

In my experience, your professor will always emphasize something that he or she omits from the exam. The major exception is civ pro - basically every exam had to have jurisdiction & choice of law in some form in addition to some rules questions, and ours was true to form.

Part of the reason there will always be topics the prof spent "a lot of time" on and that were left off is that the professors write the exams near the end of the class, not at the beginning. They teach all the material, emphasizing what they may have tested in past years - which is why PT's are important, but not dispositive - and then decide to test on a different subject; I've heard this is also to help create a decent curve, since everyone will know the primary material stressed by the professor and that makes it more challenging to distinguish a B+ paper from an A- one.

[spleenworship]

Have you noticed professors spending a lot of time covering something and then not having that come up on the final?

Like about a third of my fucking classes, maybe half, this happened. So annoying. Crim Pro II, Family Law, Crim, and a bunch of others.

[linkx13]

this thread is so tagged