What happens when you don't get biglaw? Forum

[Glasseyes]

Back when I started on TLS, five years ago, the belief was that people who didn't get big law just got a job as a public defender or something. In reality, those jobs are highly sought after, and the ones getting them are people with decent grades (at a T14) and a demonstrated commitment to public interest work.

For people who gun for big law and don't get it, the outcome usually involves at least some period of unemployment prior to getting admitted to the bar. At least at a T14, some school funded internship will usually be available. The typical outcome after that is working at a small firm, often doing insurance or employment related work. Contrary to popular belief, there is a wide gamut of work in these areas. Smaller secondary markets have respectable small firms that cater to local businesses. Most big law firms, for example, do not have the cost structure to take on a $100,000 contractual dispute. Better labor and employment firms can pay associates six figures, although most small firm salaries are $50-80k. Of course there are firms that just do slip and falls, etc, but not every small firm is a low-end ID mill.

Two years out, I don't know anybody from my class (at a T14) working at an ID mill, still doing doc review, or still unemployed, although I imagine there are some.

Thanks for this. Confirms a lot of what I suspected, with much more detail. The one PD I've met came out of USC, and from I could tell it seemed like she graduated towards the top of her class and gunned hard to land that position. And then you hear about kids on the seemingly hyper-competitive DA track and it's all about demonstrating committed and continued interest all through law school and being willing to work in random, non-desirable markets just to get your foot in the door. I wish those could be backups for the biglaw dream, as they seem interesting and satisfying in their own right, but it doesn't seem likely.

[deebanger]

At the moment, it's not worth starting in biglaw because if PSLF sticks around, you're best off starting as a DA making minimum payments until forgiveness kicks in. Of course, you run the risk that PSLF won't still be around. People who know they want to go into a lower paying practice area shouldn't take out $250K in debt, though. Especially if your goal is DA - most offices are not prestige-conscious enough to justify taking t14 at sticker over a strong regional for free.

I'm not going to say that no one has ever in the history of law gone from biglaw to DA, but it is quite unusual. Even litigation in biglaw is nothing like what you do in a DA's office. I could see making a jump after a year or two when you're still essentially entry level (and then only if you have a lot of qualifications besides biglaw), but not if you stay 5-10 years in biglaw - you'd be ensconced.

(The jump from biglaw to AUSA is different, for whatever reason.)

Also going from 5 yrs biglaw to Ada is going career backwards

I'm not going to say no ones ever done it

But it's like "why"

Curious about this. Why is it like going backwards? So what are realistic/common options for a litigation associate post-biglaw? Lateral to other big law, lateral to midlaw/small law, and AUSA - what else?

Bc Ada is an entry level job which you're not even really that qualified for

so after spending 4-5 years in big law, if for whatever reason you get a job at the da's office as an ada, will u get paid like you just got out of law school, or a little more due to my experience?

[transferror]

so after spending 4-5 years in big law, if for whatever reason you get a job at the da's office as an ada, will u get paid like you just got out of law school, or a little more due to my experience?

You won't. If somehow you did, I imagine you would receive entry-level pay. But don't worry, you won't.

[prezidentv8]

Back when I started on TLS, five years ago

whoa youre still here too

[oblitigate]

Back when I started on TLS, five years ago, the belief was that people who didn't get big law just got a job as a public defender or something. In reality, those jobs are highly sought after, and the ones getting them are people with decent grades and a demonstrated commitment to public interest work.

For people who gun for big law and don't get it, the outcome usually involves at least some period of unemployment prior to getting admitted to the bar. At least at a T14, some school funded internship will usually be available. The typical outcome after that is working at a small firm, often doing insurance or employment related work. Contrary to popular belief, there is a wide gamut of work in these areas. Smaller secondary markets have respectable small firms that cater to local businesses. Most big law firms, for example, do not have the cost structure to take on a $100,000 contractual dispute. Better labor and employment firms can pay associates six figures, although most small firm salaries are $50-80k. Of course there are firms that just do slip and falls, etc, but not every small firm is a low-end ID mill.

Two years out, I don't know anybody from my class (at a T14) working at an ID mill, still doing doc review, or still unemployed, although I imagine there are some.

This is exactly right. I went to a well-received non-t14 school and it was exactly like this for what seemed like a decent chuck of the class. If you're even thinking about law school outside the top 5 or so schools, just forget it.

I was also lucky enough to land a clerkship and a high end job, so take my hypocritical advice for what it's worth. But I'll tell you it was all purely luck bc my grades weren't exactly t14 either

[rad lulz]

,

[Dafaq]

I read so much about big and small law but what about mid-law and boutique firms with 50 attorneys (give or take) paying +120 to start and working your way up to 200? They seem to be fairly abundant. In conferring with friends at these firms (whatever you want to call them), they like it. For the most part associates are there for 5-7 years and then move into a partner position. Big Law may be wonderful for those that want NYC, LA, DC but they’re not the only lucrative option.

[SemperLegal]

I read so much about big and small law but what about mid-law and boutique firms with 50 attorneys (give or take) paying +120 to start and working your way up to 200? They seem to be fairly abundant. In conferring with friends at these firms (whatever you want to call them), they like it. For the most part associates are there for 5-7 years and then move into a partner position. Big Law may be wonderful for those that want NYC, LA, DC but they’re not the only lucrative option.

The thing is "MidLaw" doesn't really exist as a uniform thing.

There are true boutiques, which are just Big Law practice areas standing on their own. They are just like normal big law in their hiring, but more grade- and "soft"- selective. Additionally, they may go a year or two with no summers. The mostly fill their ranks with lateral from biglaw, because they don't have the manpower to train new lawyers.

Then there are regional biglaw firms that pay a good, but sub-market salary. They, also, recruit like biglaw, but they don't go very far or spend a lot doing it (i.e. unless you go to a school near them, you are going to have to mass mail them and pay for your own ticket) They tend to be suspicious and demand ties, because they are putting a large percentage of their capital into your training. They also tend to have entire years or more where they may not hire, since its harder for them to predict their needs.

Additionally, there are targeted practices: insurance defense, tax controversy, mesothelioma cases, etc.. No one on TLS really has any dope on them, but according to the rest of the internet, they pay nearly as bad as doc review, but at least its longer term and benefits are possible.

Finally, there are overgrown solo offices. Started by some older, local attorney with a crap load of charisma and business sense who kept expanding until his office fills like three floors in a 80s era office building visible from, but impossible to navigate from, the interstate. It probably specializes in suing the government when a police car gets into an acciden. The hours and the culture there tend to be true eat-what-you-kill. I have a few pre-law school friends who have worked in places like that for a decade, and most of them enjoy their job. They are big fish in a very small pond. They own nice cars, horrible suits, and get to be overly dramatic when clients are present and then get drunk with opposing counsel. However, in reality it is hard to give much advice on how to get a job there, or what life is like, because like other small businesses, it depends on the owner. Some only want top grades, others care more about personality, and others hire based on looks.

[oblitigate]

I read so much about big and small law but what about mid-law and boutique firms with 50 attorneys (give or take) paying +120 to start and working your way up to 200? They seem to be fairly abundant. In conferring with friends at these firms (whatever you want to call them), they like it. For the most part associates are there for 5-7 years and then move into a partner position. Big Law may be wonderful for those that want NYC, LA, DC but they’re not the only lucrative option.

I work in a boutique that does primary pat lit and corporate lit. The prob is they just typically don't hire law students. Otherwise they are great: big law pay but with mega bonuses; no billable req (if contingency fee practice); actual substantive work; actual partner prospects; and you can go into work dressed in anything you like as long as it's not a suit.

If you want to work in one of these firms, you really have to do things deliberately and try to get the opportunity any way you can to show them you will break your balls/vagina to work there

[Clearly]

I read so much about big and small law but what about mid-law and boutique firms with 50 attorneys (give or take) paying +120 to start and working your way up to 200? They seem to be fairly abundant. In conferring with friends at these firms (whatever you want to call them), they like it. For the most part associates are there for 5-7 years and then move into a partner position. Big Law may be wonderful for those that want NYC, LA, DC but they’re not the only lucrative option.

The thing is "MidLaw" doesn't really exist as a uniform thing.

There are true boutiques, which are just Big Law practice areas standing on their own. They are just like normal big law in their hiring, but more grade- and "soft"- selective. Additionally, they may go a year or two with no summers. The mostly fill their ranks with lateral from biglaw, because they don't have the manpower to train new lawyers.

Then there are regional biglaw firms that pay a good, but sub-market salary. They, also, recruit like biglaw, but they don't go very far or spend a lot doing it (i.e. unless you go to a school near them, you are going to have to mass mail them and pay for your own ticket) They tend to be suspicious and demand ties, because they are putting a large percentage of their capital into your training. They also tend to have entire years or more where they may not hire, since its harder for them to predict their needs.

Additionally, there are targeted practices: insurance defense, tax controversy, mesothelioma cases, etc.. No one on TLS really has any dope on them, but according to the rest of the internet, they pay nearly as bad as doc review, but at least its longer term and benefits are possible.

Finally, there are overgrown solo offices. Started by some older, local attorney with a crap load of charisma and business sense who kept expanding until his office fills like three floors in a 80s era office building visible from, but impossible to navigate from, the interstate. It probably specializes in suing the government when a police car gets into an acciden. The hours and the culture there tend to be true eat-what-you-kill. I have a few pre-law school friends who have worked in places like that for a decade, and most of them enjoy their job. They are big fish in a very small pond. They own nice cars, horrible suits, and get to be overly dramatic when clients are present and then get drunk with opposing counsel. However, in reality it is hard to give much advice on how to get a job there, or what life is like, because like other small businesses, it depends on the owner. Some only want top grades, others care more about personality, and others hire based on looks.

Bolded is the greatest thing I've ever read on tls.

[Dafaq]

I work in a boutique that does primary pat lit and corporate lit. The prob is they just typically don't hire law students. Otherwise they are great: big law pay but with mega bonuses; no billable req (if contingency fee practice); actual substantive work; actual partner prospects; and you can go into work dressed in anything you like as long as it's not a suit.

If you want to work in one of these firms, you really have to do things deliberately and try to get the opportunity any way you can to show them you will break your balls/vagina to work there

I agree with most of your post (and S-Legal too). Both posts are certainly a far cry from the usual tls threads regarding BL or bust (financially). The one advantage I suspect might exist with BL is an emergency lateral. I suspect if you get axed from a 50 attorney firm it might take a while before the next door opens.

As far as getting into a boutique, yeah, probably a bit harder because of fewer SA opportunities.

[IAFG]

Back when I started on TLS, five years ago, the belief was that people who didn't get big law just got a job as a public defender or something. In reality, those jobs are highly sought after, and the ones getting them are people with decent grades and a demonstrated commitment to public interest work.

For people who gun for big law and don't get it, the outcome usually involves at least some period of unemployment prior to getting admitted to the bar. At least at a T14, some school funded internship will usually be available. The typical outcome after that is working at a small firm, often doing insurance or employment related work. Contrary to popular belief, there is a wide gamut of work in these areas. Smaller secondary markets have respectable small firms that cater to local businesses. Most big law firms, for example, do not have the cost structure to take on a $100,000 contractual dispute. Better labor and employment firms can pay associates six figures, although most small firm salaries are $50-80k. Of course there are firms that just do slip and falls, etc, but not every small firm is a low-end ID mill.

Two years out, I don't know anybody from my class (at a T14) working at an ID mill, still doing doc review, or still unemployed, although I imagine there are some.

This is exactly right. I went to a well-received non-t14 school and it was exactly like this for what seemed like a decent chuck of the class. If you're even thinking about law school outside the top 5 or so schools, just forget it.

I was also lucky enough to land a clerkship and a high end job, so take my hypocritical advice for what it's worth. But I'll tell you it was all purely luck bc my grades weren't exactly t14 either

I hate to speak for Rayiner (lol no I don't) but that's not really what he's saying. Almost everyone we know landed on their feet in the end. There were some pretty emotionally trying journeys, but I can't think of anyone I know from NU c/o 2012 who is in a bad position.

Well except to the extent that working in biglaw is being in a "bad position."

[JusticeHarlan]

I read so much about big and small law but what about mid-law and boutique firms with 50 attorneys (give or take) paying +120 to start and working your way up to 200? They seem to be fairly abundant. In conferring with friends at these firms (whatever you want to call them), they like it. For the most part associates are there for 5-7 years and then move into a partner position. Big Law may be wonderful for those that want NYC, LA, DC but they’re not the only lucrative option.

--ImageRemoved--

[IAFG]

I read so much about big and small law but what about mid-law and boutique firms with 50 attorneys (give or take) paying +120 to start and working your way up to 200? They seem to be fairly abundant. In conferring with friends at these firms (whatever you want to call them), they like it. For the most part associates are there for 5-7 years and then move into a partner position. Big Law may be wonderful for those that want NYC, LA, DC but they’re not the only lucrative option.

--ImageRemoved--

Thank you. I wanted to post the same thing.

[Dafaq]

Interesting enough considering that I just saw in the news where bus drivers in some northern city are about to go on strike because they are unhappy with their $60K salary… they probably didn’t pay $200K for bus drivers school. Wonder if NALP has data more current than “11… a pretty sucky year for most.

[bk1]

Interesting enough considering that I just saw in the news where bus drivers in some northern city are about to go on strike because they are unhappy with their $60K salary… they probably didn’t pay $200K for bus drivers school. Wonder if NALP has data more current than “11… a pretty sucky year for most.

Of course they do (and it looks even worse). Things aren't going to be significantly better than 2011 and its foolish to think 2011 is an outlier.

[Dafaq]

Interesting enough considering that I just saw in the news where bus drivers in some northern city are about to go on strike because they are unhappy with their $60K salary… they probably didn’t pay $200K for bus drivers school. Wonder if NALP has data more current than “11… a pretty sucky year for most.

Of course they do (and it looks even worse). Things aren't going to be significantly better than 2011 and its foolish to think 2011 is an outlier.

Would I would love to know is how the data breaks out with the top 25 schools or tier-1. To that degree, those numbers/charts are misleading at best.

[84651846190]

Interesting enough considering that I just saw in the news where bus drivers in some northern city are about to go on strike because they are unhappy with their $60K salary… they probably didn’t pay $200K for bus drivers school. Wonder if NALP has data more current than “11… a pretty sucky year for most.

Of course they do (and it looks even worse). Things aren't going to be significantly better than 2011 and its foolish to think 2011 is an outlier.

Would I would love to know is how the data breaks out with the top 25 schools or tier-1. To that degree, those numbers/charts are misleading at best.

It's all shit. Law is shit. Don't do it.

HYS probably does the same now as it used to. I imagine there's been a small drop for CCN, a slightly bigger one for MVPB, and an even bigger one for the rest of the T14.

[bjsesq]

You pretend you always wanted to do PI until you get caught at 3L OCI. You graduate jobless. Your wife fucks a black guy and you ain't even mad.

But do just beta out and raise the guys cafe au lait children? Or do you have enough self respect to sleep on the couch an just drink whiskey all day instead?

Some beta enough to fail getting big law from a t14? Yea he raises Tyrones kids.

Tyrone's children are charming, though. So there's that.

[spleenworship]

You pretend you always wanted to do PI until you get caught at 3L OCI. You graduate jobless. Your wife fucks a black guy and you ain't even mad.

But do just beta out and raise the guys cafe au lait children? Or do you have enough self respect to sleep on the couch an just drink whiskey all day instead?

Some beta enough to fail getting big law from a t14? Yea he raises Tyrones kids.

Tyrone's children are charming, though. So there's that.

You're just falling into the patronizing and racist white person trap of assuming all mixed-race children are better looking. Don't be that guy.

[bjsesq]

You're just falling into the patronizing and racist white person trap of assuming all mixed-race children are better looking. Don't be that guy.

[spleenworship]

God, I love that one.

[bk1]

Interesting enough considering that I just saw in the news where bus drivers in some northern city are about to go on strike because they are unhappy with their $60K salary… they probably didn’t pay $200K for bus drivers school. Wonder if NALP has data more current than “11… a pretty sucky year for most.

Of course they do (and it looks even worse). Things aren't going to be significantly better than 2011 and its foolish to think 2011 is an outlier.

Would I would love to know is how the data breaks out with the top 25 schools or tier-1. To that degree, those numbers/charts are misleading at best.

The data is out there if you just look. And you're deluding yourself if you think that things are significantly better at tier 1 schools. You'd be better off if you stopped trying to rationalize that those statistics will not apply to you for reason X, Y, or Z.

[IAFG]

Interesting enough considering that I just saw in the news where bus drivers in some northern city are about to go on strike because they are unhappy with their $60K salary… they probably didn’t pay $200K for bus drivers school. Wonder if NALP has data more current than “11… a pretty sucky year for most.

Of course they do (and it looks even worse). Things aren't going to be significantly better than 2011 and its foolish to think 2011 is an outlier.

Would I would love to know is how the data breaks out with the top 25 schools or tier-1. To that degree, those numbers/charts are misleading at best.

It's all shit. Law is shit. Don't do it.

HYS probably does the same now as it used to. I imagine there's been a small drop for CCN, a slightly bigger one for MVPB, and an even bigger one for the rest of the T14.

It's more like big drop to CCN medium ish to MVPBDCN. The "MVPB" minitier is only relevant to admissions. It's not relevant in employment at all.

[PepperJack]

Taking jobs and debt out of the equation, a competitive market for public defenders is a great thing for our legal system. The amount of people convicted despite all evidence in their favor because of an incompetent lawyer is what gave our justice system a bad name.