Yale Recent Grad Taking Qs Forum

[Elston Gunn]

Do you think the student body is different at Yale Law than Harvard Law? Were you deciding between the two?

That's really an impossible question to answer, and I think it's a bit silly how much students at one school or another try to explain the differences. I doubt there's a single person at either school right now who's attended both, so you're talking about vague impressions people get that can't possibly mean very much.

I'm also a particularly bad person to ask because I never seriously considered Harvard, and didn't even attend ASW. My choice was always Chicago/Columbia with $$$ vs. Yale. In fact, I think choosing Harvard over Yale with the same money, absent personal considerations like a spouse in Boston or you also got into HBS and aren't sure you want to be a lawyer, is borderline ridiculous. Whatever your cultural preferences--and the differences probably are real, but I'm quite sure overblown--you're choosing excellent employment opportunities over *incredible* employment opportunities.

I guess I should clarify: I don't think choosing Harvard is insane because it's going to screw up your life or anything like that. You'll very likely be very well off afterward. The difference between Yale and Harvard may well be at the margins, but it's quite obviously in Yale's favor.

One other anecdote on culture/environment I'll add: I have a pretty good friend who's a 1L at Harvard. Listening to her talk about her experience, it's almost hard to believe we're going through broadly the same professional program. It's not that she's unhappy, but the way she describes the everyday stress is just something I haven't experienced at all here. I work very hard, but I very rarely feel stressed.

[Elston Gunn]

What do you know about the clinics? Ever done one? Heard reviews?

I've been in a clinic all 3 semesters I've been eligible, and it's been the best experience I've had in law school. If you look up a bit in the thread, you'll see how I think accessibility of clinics at Yale means that, despite it's reputation, it's arguably the best place to prepare to be a lawyer if you want it to be.

50% of 1Ls join a clinic their first semester (and a significant majority of those who want a clinic, get one--though as many very angry students will remind you, it's not *all*), and 80% do one before they graduate. The worst I've heard anyone say about a clinic was that they didn't do much, and by far the most common point of view is mine, that it's the best experience you have in law school.

[ryaka]

Hi Elston, thanks for answering questions I'm starting at Y this fall, and was wondering--are people you know generally happy there? As happy as they were undergrad, say?

[Elston Gunn]

Hi Elston, thanks for answering questions I'm starting at Y this fall, and was wondering--are people you know generally happy there? As happy as they were undergrad, say?

Hmm, that's a really tough question to answer. I'm quite happy here, and the quality of life is quite good in my opinion. However, it's not the sort of utopia that TLS mythology sometimes seems to hold. I do think it's very easy to be happy as long as you A) keep perspective about what law school is like anywhere else, and B) know more or less what you want in life.

On A, there are some shitty things about YLS, notably an administration that doesn't much care about students (quite explicitly at times), and the feeling sometimes that success at the very top is often more about knowing (or cynically, sucking up to) the right people, having the right background, or pure randomness, which is exacerbated by the nebulous grading system. But of course those complaints are absolutely nothing compared to actually having to worry about not finding a decent job, and the stress that goes along with that at finals time. Of course, lots of us are the kind of people that always find something to stress about no matter what, but that's not the school's fault. For me, having read a lot of TLS before law school helped me a lot. I still get stressed about YLJ, clerkships, etc., but I never forget how lucky I am that, while only having taken two black letter classes for grades (I had a clinic and a seminar too), I was easily able to find a great firm job. It's makes everything a lot better when you remember to be grateful for the opportunities you have.

On B, the people who are the most unhappy seem to me to be those who really don't know what they want, and still haven't figured it out. The people who decide 5 minutes into their first Con Law class that the law is mostly bullshit and have no interest in being lawyers are the most cynical and frustrated. They'll still be fine, but they don't really like being here, even if they can easily skate by. The people who can't stop chasing prestige (a lot of us), also might struggle some, as it can breed the kind of franticness and bitterness that's normally reserved for people worried they might not find a job that would allow them to pay off their loans.

[gottago]

edit

[Elston Gunn]

I could've sworn there was another Yale Q&A but I'll just bump this one.

I'm a K-JD. So I'm young and unattached. It's coming down to H/Y.

on the one hand, H is in the boston area and has all those other schools on campus and in boston (Wellesley etc)

on the other, Y is in NH pretty much by itself, 2 hours from NYC and farther from Boston. It's pretty damn hard to walk away from YLS but if I want to have a "fun" 3 years too, do you think YLS will be too limiting because 1. most students not K-JD, most are already married, etc, and 2. there's nowhere to turn to like Tufts BC BU, Boston generally, etc.

I actually talked to someone else from the C/o 16 who got HY+Hamilton and she went to HLS because she thought YLS wouldn't be what she was looking for socially. She was also a K-JD. she went to YUG actually

so yea if I were a 26 year old coming off a Rhodes, have a long-term S/O and everything, then yea YLS is the place to be. but if I'm just 21/22 then YLS doesn't look too promising.

Personally, I think this is a pretty silly way to look at what's at minimum a 6 figure investment. And it's hardly the case that everyone is 26 and married. 80% are 3 years out or under and 20% are K-JD, and many people have found SOs here. I'm sure the social scene is indeed different, but a) the idea of picking H over Y to be happier makes absolutely no sense to me, since it will very likely be the opposite and b) you go to professional school to start a career, you're investing an insane amount of money, the social atmosphere seems like it should be secondary.

2. if it's only a secondary interest of mine to get a CoA/SCOTUS clerkship and my primary goal is getting V10, am i really giving up a lot by not going to YLS?

I fell like YLS gives me a better shot at CoA/SCOTUS (which is still pretty rare, and it's also getting ahead of myself), but my main interest in NYC biglaw, and so far I've gotten the sense they're pretty much the same

I know at HLS I can't ride straight Ps to Skadden, but I doubt I can do that at YLS either

I think it does matter, quite a bit. You absolutely can ride straight Ps to Skadden at Yale. I think Paul Weiss,* which had around 80 interview slots, gave callbacks to literally everyone, for example, and weren't especially selective at the callback stage. That's an extreme example, but the NYC V10/V15 are basically the backups for most people. If you bid heavily NYC, without almost any grades and any background, the odds of getting a V10 are very, very high, and the odds of getting a near-the-top NYC firm are basically 100% (there are lots of good firms, like Fried Frank and White & Case, that come every year and can't get anyone to take their offers). I really don't think either of those things are the case for Harvard students.

*Okay, Paul Weiss isn't technically a V10, but there's no real difference.

[bhs12]

Thanks OP; this is a really helpful thread. I particularly appreciate the H/Y comparisons, and wonder if you have thoughts for those in the position of deciding between Stanford and Yale?

What you write about the importance of faculty connections/borderline supplication for clerkship opportunities is consonant with what I've heard from other YLS students. One, a current 1L, advised me that SLS faculty are more accessible and welcoming of student contact generally (the idea being that the instrumentally-driven relationships at Yale breed some suspicion/tension between faculty and students). Do you have any thoughts about this?

[Elston Gunn]

Thanks OP; this is a really helpful thread. I particularly appreciate the H/Y comparisons, and wonder if you have thoughts for those in the position of deciding between Stanford and Yale?

What you write about the importance of faculty connections/borderline supplication for clerkship opportunities is consonant with what I've heard from other YLS students. One, a current 1L, advised me that SLS faculty are more accessible and welcoming of student contact generally (the idea being that the instrumentally-driven relationships at Yale breed some suspicion/tension between faculty and students). Do you have any thoughts about this?

I should make clear that I'm only talking about what's necessary for more or less feeder clerkships. It's very easy--well, it's hard in that it takes a lot of work, but it's very easy comparatively--to get a clerkship if you really want one, have decent grades, YLJ (which, contrary to popular belief isn't exactly easy to get on, but is much easier than other places) and a few professors (regardless of who they are) that know and like you. And even without YLJ, but with the other things, it's very doable.

It's impossible to compare with Stanford because I just don't know. The large majority of professors that I've interacted with here are very happy to talk with students and help out, and even the "gatekeepers," so to speak, actually have reputations as being lovely people, by and large. I don't really think that's a huge source of tension. I do, however, think the administration's general disinterest with student concerns does create tension from a lot of people, though it's not always clear where it's directed. I also think students who feel like they're missing out on opportunities because basically they don't know the right people are sometimes cynical or resentful, probably justifiably on some level.

[gottago]

edit

[Elston Gunn]

Well I guess a close analog in undergrad admissions would be Columbia/Penn Engineering vs MIT. Yea MIT is the better school, but Columbia and Penn might be funner places to spend 4 years while the education and career prospects are only slightly worse.

Yea I realize I'm going to LS at all to get a job not to have a good time but in my view (without having visited YLS yet, which I will), HY offer similar enough career prospects that secondary considerations like social scene, Boston, specialty in L&B start to matter.

So I guess I was asking what the YLS scene was. maybe I'll have different thoughts once I visit but I can't imagine it being close to HLS's social calendar/bars

Do you, bro. You know what I think.

[Instinctive]

If I can be so intrusive as to ask, how do you feel about the cost of attendance? My choice is Yale or Ruby, so it's not quite the easiest thing to figure out.

[Elston Gunn]

If I can be so intrusive as to ask, how do you feel about the cost of attendance? My choice is Yale or Ruby, so it's not quite the easiest thing to figure out.

I was making the same call. It's definitely not too intrusive.

I mean, it sucks. It'll take me years to pay back the debt, and I could've graduated virtually debt free from U Chi. I definitely don't regret the decision right now (in fact, I'm very happy with it!), but it's hard to really give advice about something like that until I'm actually paying it back. When I was actually making the decision, I wrote this, and I think still agree with a lot of it:

I've actually made this decision, so I'll add some of my thoughts. (Note, this mostly only applies to Yale. It's unclear to me how similar things are at Stanford, but outcomes are definitely weaker at Harvard--i.e. big law is not a near-guarantee and you still have to standout to get an AIII clerkship.)

1. The clerkship factor.

I suspect the biggest practical difference between going to Yale vs. CCN is in clerkship chances. My 1L host at ASW stated confidently that anyone who was willing to work in a flyover could get a district clerkship. Obviously, he was somewhat exaggerating, but it's reasonable to think a YLS student who really wants to clerk has something like a 60-70% chance of making that happen.

The question is, how valuable is clerking? Well, if you want to be a professor, work in the federal government or in prestige PI, it's pretty much a requirement. Another area where it's very important (and one I think is chronically ignored in TLS conventional wisdom of Academia/FedGov/Prestige PI) is doing appellate litigation at a big firm, as well as working at the elite Lit shops that give you a real chance to make partner. These are the things that litigation-minded people really gun for.

Another thing to consider is the exit options and job security that come with having been a federal clerk. It'd be hard to quantify the effect, but I think it's undoubtedly there. (There was a thread a while back by an HLS grad five years out, who I think said he didn't think the Harvard name necessarily carried that much weight in changing jobs, but that his clerkships definitely did.) I don't know if it will stop you from being Lathamed, but I would bet a lot that any Lathamed associates with clerkships had a softer landing.

2. Big law

At Yale, some people do strike out at FIP, but essentially every single person who is persistent and doesn't have a resume that screams that they don't want to work at a firm finds a job paying 145K plus. And even people with those resumes almost always find something if they're really persistent.

In addition to that security is dramatically increased ability to get jobs in more difficult cities, particularly D.C. So something you'd want to take into account is how comfortable you are working BigLaw in NYC vs. some other market.

3. Best/Worst case scenarios vs. median outcomes

When making this decision, I think it's especially important to think about: what's the best reasonable outcome for me (80th percentile), the most likely outcome, and the worst reasonable outcome (10th percentile) at the different schools?

In the end, I thought the best and worst outcomes at Yale at near-sticker were both preferable to the equivalent at Chicago at none, but the median outcome at Chicago was better. I decided to gamble a little, knowing the downside risk was very low. But this is very personal--for instance, at the 80th percentile, it's certainly not obvious whether clerkship + elite DC appellate/lit boutique or BigFed + a lot of debt and a solid LRAP is better or worse than middling DC BigLaw or elite NYC BigLaw plus little to no debt. (Though I imagine most will say the latter is obviously better, it wasn't in my eyes.)

3. Quality of Life

I cannot tell you how easy first semester 1L is here, and after this I will still probably never take more than 1 or 2 exams in the same semester. I'm not sure how much that's worth, but it's a real difference.

4. Litigation vs. Transactional

I think this distinction is nearly as important as the distinction between Academia and BigLaw in making this decision. If you want transactional, most of the benefits of Yale won't be relevant to you (though you may get very excited at the idea of getting a V5 from way below the theoretical median, it's certainly not any guarantee). Granted, most people don't really know what they want before they start law school, though I think a fair number of people do.

I'm working this summer at an awesome DC firm, have a district clerkship lined up and am about to start applying for circuit clerkships. When I'm done with the clerkship, hopefully I'll be able to return to my summer firm or, if I decide to, go to one of those lit boutiques. Not quite the best possible scenario, but it's gone well, and I'm pleased. Other parts of TLS are right that clerking is not a career, and not an end to shoot for in itself, but I am so incredibly excited for mine, for lots of reasons outside of instrumentality/prestige. But in four years, when I've still got $180k of debt, will I think that was worth it? I really don't know.

[oxie]

Thanks so much for making this thread!

In your old post you mentioned that at Yale you'd have a "dramatically increased ability to get jobs in more difficult cities, particularly D.C." I'm interested in working in DC (probably doing regulatory work) after graduation. Given your experience so far, do you still feel like YLS has a significant advantage for DC? How confident can you be in getting DC if you're below median at YLS?

Also, I'm going to be visiting next week (not through the official admitted students program, though) -- is there anything you'd really recommend doing while I'm there?

[Elston Gunn]

Thanks so much for making this thread!

In your old post you mentioned that at Yale you'd have a "dramatically increased ability to get jobs in more difficult cities, particularly D.C." I'm interested in working in DC (probably doing regulatory work) after graduation. Given your experience so far, do you still feel like YLS has a significant advantage for DC? How confident can you be in getting DC if you're below median at YLS?

Yes, I still think that. The problem with your second question is that "below median" isn't really a thing. All P's? You might have a few issues (though that's really me guessing, and it's easy to avoid having all P's). D.C. is not a guarantee for almost anyone, but the odds are good. Like I said above, the real advantage is that there aren't any cutoffs for Yale students. DC is normally hard to get because the firms that take large classes (e.g. Covington, Wilmer, Hogan, A&P, Sidley, etc) tend to be inaccessible to all but the top third/top quarter at non-HYS schools. At Yale, you can get your foot in the door at any of them. (And Hogan, a great DC reg firm, offers almost literally everyone who interviews with them, historically.) If you've got a regulatory background at all, I'd say your shot is very, very good. Even without that, it would still be surprising if you got nothing out of D.C. Finally, one nice thing about the clerkship placement is that, if you don't like what you get out of FIP, you can get another bite at the proverbial apple after the clerkship, when you'll be a bit more attractive.

Also, I'm going to be visiting next week (not through the official admitted students program, though) -- is there anything you'd really recommend doing while I'm there?

Sorry, I don't have too much advice about this. My main advice about ASWs is to not put too much stock in them!

[oxie]

Thanks for the response, I really appreciate it! Still wrapping my head around the YLS approach to grades, which does seem amazing.

[Elston Gunn]

Bump if anyone has pre-FIP Qs.

[girlmonster]

CLS student here. Sorry to intrude on your thread, but did you or anyone you know happen to take Richard Brooks for Contracts?

[Elston Gunn]

Bump, in case there are FIP questions or anything. Studying for the bar is not in the slightest bit fun.

[sneakyleo]

---

[Elston Gunn]

Bump, in case there are FIP questions or anything. Studying for the bar is not in the slightest bit fun.

Thanks, Elston! Not an FIP question but as an incoming 1L, I'm just wondering if you have any advice for someone starting their law school experience in general and at Yale in particular - anything you're particularly glad you did a certain way, or anything you wish you'd done slightly differently.

Good luck with the bar!

Thanks.

The first piece of advice I would give is, before you start, think a little about how much you care about the high-prestige jobs out there, particularly things like feeder clerkships and to a lesser extent appeals clerkships in New York, D.C. or LA/SF and surrounding areas. It's obviously silly to have any thoughts about these things when you haven't spent a minute in law school, but the sooner you can decide one way or another, the happier you'll be IMO. (Which is not to suggest you should decide before you start, just that you should be thinking about it.)

I spent my first two years half wanting that stuff and half being cynical and not caring, to the point where I really wouldn't do the things you need to to make it happen (i.e. develop strong relationships with connected professors) and then would feel guilty that I didn't. Once I realized I had no desire to actually be a litigator, and dropped out of any further competition on that front, I was a lot happier. The other side, is that if you really do care, the earlier you really commit yourself to it, doing the good work and developing the relationships you need, the better your chances of success. The really motivated people will already have a strong recommender or two after first semester 1L, and feeder judges are hiring 1L summer these days. That's not to scare anyone, but that's just the reality.

Also keep in mind there are lots of cool things you can still be ambitious for without being specifically ambitious toward the things that are most competitive and sought after. One of the coolest things about Yale is that your job prospects are likely good enough that you can take risks and figure out a path that fits you better than the typical T14 law student follows (which leaves most people unhappy).

Second, regardless of how ambitious you decide to be, DO NOT STRESS EVEN THE SLIGHTEST BIT ABOUT 1L CLASSES. You could literally take all your exams drunk and have no issues. Don't go to Torts with Guido every morning at 8:30. Don't brief cases and all that stuff. It's not that you should be lazy exactly (though you certainly can if you want), but 1Ls don't know how or what they actually need to get out of cases and classes yet, and no grades means there's no pressure to figure it out earlier than would happen naturally. You'll have a much better idea of what kind of studying you actually need to do after you go through the whole process. The only things you can get out of first semester 1L are some good friends and a good connection or two with your professors.

Third, especially if you think you might do FIP, take at least one class 1L spring that's a near guaranteed H. Take a graded clinic and/or a seminar (and do a good job on the paper). I know it's a little instrumental-sounding, but it's very possible to get straight Ps if you take 4 exam classes, and that's not a good look for FIP. You'll still definitely get offers in NY unless you screw something up, but you'll limit options a lot.

Fourth, try not to get too cynical. My class especially got very, very cynical about YLS as an institution. A lot of the criticisms are fair. But in the end, we have it far better than everywhere else, and focusing too much on what's shitty is just miserable in the end.

Finally, related to what I said in the first one, just be open to developing new interests. Appellate litigation isn't actually the only cool job in the world (in fact, I think it'd be oppressively isolated for a lot of people). Not everyone should do a clerkship. Not everyone in law school should be a lawyer. You don't have to be at the ACLU to help people. Etc. My interests are completely different from what they were when I started LS, and I'm much, much happier for it. (We'll see how it actually plays out when I start working!)

Hope that helps.

[sneakyleo]

---

[jetsfan1]

Hey great thread here, really appreciate it. I know you mentioned you've got nothing to add on the admissions level, but out of curiosity would you be able to talk a little about your personal cycle and what you think made you stand out? You can be as vague as possible if you would like. Great numbers, even relative to the rest of the incoming class? Softs? PS? Thanks a ton for the thread!

[Elston Gunn]

Hey great thread here, really appreciate it. I know you mentioned you've got nothing to add on the admissions level, but out of curiosity would you be able to talk a little about your personal cycle and what you think made you stand out? You can be as vague as possible if you would like. Great numbers, even relative to the rest of the incoming class? Softs? PS? Thanks a ton for the thread!

Honestly, by far the biggest thing was that I had essentially perfect numbers. I imagine it also helped that I went to a very small undergrad and probably was unusually close with my professors. I've said this elsewhere, but I think the TLS CW about "softs" is a bit off, at least wrt Yale. On this site, when people talk about softs, they're basically talking about the things listed on their resume. That matters a lot, of course, but the quality of recommendations matters a lot too. (Remember it's faculty members who are reviewing most of the competitive applications.)

[jetsfan1]

Hey great thread here, really appreciate it. I know you mentioned you've got nothing to add on the admissions level, but out of curiosity would you be able to talk a little about your personal cycle and what you think made you stand out? You can be as vague as possible if you would like. Great numbers, even relative to the rest of the incoming class? Softs? PS? Thanks a ton for the thread!

Honestly, by far the biggest thing was that I had essentially perfect numbers. I imagine it also helped that I went to a very small undergrad and probably was unusually close with my professors. I've said this elsewhere, but I think the TLS CW about "softs" is a bit off, at least wrt Yale. On this site, when people talk about softs, they're basically talking about the things listed on their resume. That matters a lot, of course, but the quality of recommendations matters a lot too. (Remember it's faculty members who are reviewing most of the competitive applications.)

Thanks!

[omegaweapon]

Hey, incoming 1L here, and I had a couple questions about your suggestion to take at least one easy H class. It seems like, from the people I've talked to, the lack of curve and any mandatory graded classes make it a lot less like the traditional law school experience, and a lot more like undergrad, where you can take easy A classes to pad your GPA to whatever you want.

Do you feel like the pressure to do that stopped you from taking the classes and professors that you were genuinely interested in? If you could do things over, do you think you'd be more or less instrumental in your choices?

Relatedly, are firms aware that the grades they're using are less meaningful in your experience? Does it seem like they would choose someone who had 3Hs in a clinic and two seminars over someone who had all Ps in purely black letter stuff? I've heard that some selective firms just don't care about grades, and rely on who's on YLJ. Is that true at all?

I'm pretty set on trying to go into government, but I know how inconsistent the hiring for those jobs is, and I don't want to shoot myself in the foot if I need to do a stint in biglaw first.