JD ----> Management Consulting Forum

[Pokemon]

I interviewed with some of MBB. Even if they are not visiting your school, it is not that hard to get interviews with them if you have top standardized tests grades (SAT, ACT, LSAT, GMAT etc).
They couldn't care less about your law school grades.
The case interviews are not bad if you are good at mental math and can think logically. I found the behavioral questions to be by far the tougher part, tougher than any biglaw interview. The behavioral questions is where people with previous good experiences can really shine.

Lets say my SAT/LSAT are good but not great. Can I make up for this with a stellar GMAT?

No idea. But why would you take the GMAT if not going to b-school and what makes you think you will do well on GMAT if you did not do well on SAT math?

[FSK]

I interviewed with some of MBB. Even if they are not visiting your school, it is not that hard to get interviews with them if you have top standardized tests grades (SAT, ACT, LSAT, GMAT etc).
They couldn't care less about your law school grades.
The case interviews are not bad if you are good at mental math and can think logically. I found the behavioral questions to be by far the tougher part, tougher than any biglaw interview. The behavioral questions is where people with previous good experiences can really shine.

Lets say my SAT/LSAT are good but not great. Can I make up for this with a stellar GMAT?

No idea. But why would you take the GMAT if not going to b-school and what makes you think you will do well on GMAT if you did not do well on SAT math?

I didn't study for the SAT at all, and it was still my best portion. I might want to do B school within the next 5 years, so it wouldn't be a total wasted effort.

[hellojd]

Nothing to add, just tagging because I am interested to hear everyone's thoughts as well.

[jingosaur]

Do they really care about SAT scores even for grad students? I interviewed with Bain in UG and was shocked that they wanted my SAT score and I was actually pretty pissed because it wasn't representative of my actual standardized test taking abilities.

I currently work at a consulting firm that was Vault 50 and has recently fallen out of the rankings. From my experience, I wouldn't go back to a consulting firm over a BigLaw firm unless it's MBB. I think a lot of people want consulting over Biglaw because of perceived fewer hours and more job security, but in reality, job security is about equal (my partner has been trying to get me fired for 8 months now and I'm a top performer) and it's not uncommon for people to be on projects with 80+ hour weeks and/or 5 day a week travel to the middle of nowhere. The stress and workload on average probably isn't as bad as Biglaw, but with the exception of a few firms, you'll be making significantly less and raises and bonuses are virtually nonexistent.

[t-14orbust]

Do they really care about SAT scores even for grad students? I interviewed with Bain in UG and was shocked that they wanted my SAT score and I was actually pretty pissed because it wasn't representative of my actual standardized test taking abilities.

I currently work at a consulting firm that was Vault 50 and has recently fallen out of the rankings. From my experience, I wouldn't go back to a consulting firm over a BigLaw firm unless it's MBB. I think a lot of people want consulting over Biglaw because of perceived fewer hours and more job security, but in reality, job security is about equal (my partner has been trying to get me fired for 8 months now and I'm a top performer) and it's not uncommon for people to be on projects with 80+ hour weeks and/or 5 day a week travel to the middle of nowhere. The stress and workload on average probably isn't as bad as Biglaw, but with the exception of a few firms, you'll be making significantly less and raises and bonuses are virtually nonexistent.

How about MBcg > Biglaw?

[hellojd]

Do they really care about SAT scores even for grad students? I interviewed with Bain in UG and was shocked that they wanted my SAT score and I was actually pretty pissed because it wasn't representative of my actual standardized test taking abilities.

I currently work at a consulting firm that was Vault 50 and has recently fallen out of the rankings. From my experience, I wouldn't go back to a consulting firm over a BigLaw firm unless it's MBB. I think a lot of people want consulting over Biglaw because of perceived fewer hours and more job security, but in reality, job security is about equal (my partner has been trying to get me fired for 8 months now and I'm a top performer) and it's not uncommon for people to be on projects with 80+ hour weeks and/or 5 day a week travel to the middle of nowhere. The stress and workload on average probably isn't as bad as Biglaw, but with the exception of a few firms, you'll be making significantly less and raises and bonuses are virtually nonexistent.

How about MBcg > Biglaw?

I'd second what this poster said, but emphasizing that he's not talking about MBB and probably the tier right below that (Accenture, Deloitte/Big 4, Booz, etc.). I used to be at one of those 2nd tier shops, and I can definitely vouch for the fact that there was a definite perceived dropoff between us and MBB, but also a large dropoff between our tier and all the other random consulting firms out there (there are a million, but an example of a TTT consulting firm IMO is Kurt Salomon). The dropoff is really steep and really quick, quite unlike biglaw where a dropoff exists between, say, a V10 and a V25, but not by much and even the V25 may beat the V10 on certain sectors/practice areas, and where the compensation is likely the same. To be honest, I'm surprised there's even a ranking up to 50 - as a former consultant, I don't think I can even name more than 10-15 significant shops that come to mind, which is very far from the case with law firms.

[iliketurtles123]

Anyone know how much time is needed/recommended to fully prep for case interviews (from scratch)?

I'm not 100% sure i want to get into consulting but would like to interview alongside OCI and have the option. My ordinary law interview skills aren't that great. Would I be better off using all my time preparing for law interviews or will prepping for case interviews translate over (I'm not sure how different these are)?

[hellojd]

Anyone know how much time is needed/recommended to fully prep for case interviews (from scratch)?

I'm not 100% sure i want to get into consulting but would like to interview alongside OCI and have the option. My ordinary law interview skills aren't that great. Would I be better off using all my time preparing for law interviews or will prepping for case interviews translate over (I'm not sure how different these are)?

The behavioral part of consulting interviews may translate over (tell us about X experience on your resume, how you work on a team, etc.) but the consulting firms will grill you harder on this. Basically every law firm interview I had for 1L SA positions was easier than just about every consulting behavioral interview I've gone through.

The case interviews are 100% different. I would think carefully about whether you truly want to devote the time to preparing for these, as they do require a time investment (I suppose you could always apply first, and if you get an interview then make the decision).

[lhanvt13]

Anyone know how much time is needed/recommended to fully prep for case interviews (from scratch)?

I'm not 100% sure i want to get into consulting but would like to interview alongside OCI and have the option. My ordinary law interview skills aren't that great. Would I be better off using all my time preparing for law interviews or will prepping for case interviews translate over (I'm not sure how different these are)?

managementconsulted.com
gmatclub
poetsandquants
those three were what I was told to look at.

Also, case in point, and caseinterview.com

[AllTheLawz]

Nothing to add, just tagging because I am interested to hear everyone's thoughts as well.

I'll add that MBB somehow appears to still be growing and salaries are on the rise a little bit. MBB 1st year all-in (including significant retirement contribution and signing bonus, excluding relocation) now up to $190-$200k for an avg performer and $210-220k for top performers.

[t-14orbust]

Anyone know the attrition rate at MBB? Is it comparable to the ~3 year 50% average in biglaw?

[AllTheLawz]

Anyone know the attrition rate at MBB? Is it comparable to the ~3 year 50% average in biglaw?

Yep. Almost exactly the same actually. First promotion window is 18-36 months so a good portion leave in the 30-36 month range. Idk for sure if its a full 50% by end of year 3 but definitely at least a full 50% by end of year 4 and probably a bit higher.

[t-14orbust]

Anyone know the attrition rate at MBB? Is it comparable to the ~3 year 50% average in biglaw?

Yep. Almost exactly the same actually. First promotion window is 18-36 months so a good portion leave in the 30-36 month range. Idk for sure if its a full 50% by end of year 3 but definitely at least a full 50% by end of year 4 and probably a bit higher.

Are the exit options any better? Thanks for the responses, btw

[robotrick]

I've also been looking into the MBB route for post-LS employment. I tried out of UG, but I went to a non-target school (to say the least) and couldn't get an interview despite my best efforts. I know my LS will get me at least to the interview stage if I still want to at the end of 2L summer.

To me, the type of work that consultants do at MBB seems much more interesting than what junior associates do at BigLaw firms. However, the prospects for 5-10 years out on each path are less clear in my mind mostly because I just don't have a good data set of outcomes to look at. Still not sure what I'll do.

[t-14orbust]

I've also been looking into the MBB route for post-LS employment. I tried out of UG, but I went to a non-target school (to say the least) and couldn't get an interview despite my best efforts. I know my LS will get me at least to the interview stage if I still want to at the end of 2L summer.

To me, the type of work that consultants do at MBB seems much more interesting than what junior associates do at BigLaw firms. However, the prospects for 5-10 years out on each path are less clear in my mind mostly because I just don't have a good data set of outcomes to look at. Still not sure what I'll do.

I'm pretty much in the same exact boat

[igo2northwestern]

Anyone know how much time is needed/recommended to fully prep for case interviews (from scratch)?

I'm not 100% sure i want to get into consulting but would like to interview alongside OCI and have the option. My ordinary law interview skills aren't that great. Would I be better off using all my time preparing for law interviews or will prepping for case interviews translate over (I'm not sure how different these are)?

managementconsulted.com
gmatclub
poetsandquants
those three were what I was told to look at.

Also, case in point, and caseinterview.com

I'd recommend spending your time prepping for law interviews. OCI is in August, you have your 1L summer job, and it would be difficult (though not impossible) to get case-ready in 2 months, especially if you don't have the proper resources. Caseinterview.com is the best of the listed websites, but they are largely insufficient if you don't have practice partners + b-school/consulting club resources.

[igo2northwestern]

Nothing to add, just tagging because I am interested to hear everyone's thoughts as well.

I'll add that MBB somehow appears to still be growing and salaries are on the rise a little bit. MBB 1st year all-in (including significant retirement contribution and signing bonus, excluding relocation) now up to $190-$200k for an avg performer and $210-220k for top performers.

Where are you getting these numbers? It should be 190k on high end. $125-35 salary, $20 signing, $35-$40 bonus.

[igo2northwestern]

Anyone know the attrition rate at MBB? Is it comparable to the ~3 year 50% average in biglaw?

Yep. Almost exactly the same actually. First promotion window is 18-36 months so a good portion leave in the 30-36 month range. Idk for sure if its a full 50% by end of year 3 but definitely at least a full 50% by end of year 4 and probably a bit higher.

Are the exit options any better? Thanks for the responses, btw

If you're interested in VC/PE, it's still very very difficult. I think the exits are better, but I don't yet fully understand what law exits are.

Also, I think the answer to your question depends on what metric you're using to evaluate an exit. If by salary, the answer is yes, consulting exits MBB exits are better. If by hours, it might be similar. Could you be more specific?

[AllTheLawz]

Nothing to add, just tagging because I am interested to hear everyone's thoughts as well.

I'll add that MBB somehow appears to still be growing and salaries are on the rise a little bit. MBB 1st year all-in (including significant retirement contribution and signing bonus, excluding relocation) now up to $190-$200k for an avg performer and $210-220k for top performers.

Where are you getting these numbers? It should be 190k on high end. $125-35 salary, $20 signing, $35-$40 bonus.

Note that above I said I was including retirement contribution (I believe 5% of base+bonus at the low end (BCG/Bain?) and 12% base+bonus at high end (McK).. no vesting period for any of the three that I know of). Also, add $5K to signing bonuses or base this year I think (135+25 or 140+20)

[AllTheLawz]

Anyone know the attrition rate at MBB? Is it comparable to the ~3 year 50% average in biglaw?

Yep. Almost exactly the same actually. First promotion window is 18-36 months so a good portion leave in the 30-36 month range. Idk for sure if its a full 50% by end of year 3 but definitely at least a full 50% by end of year 4 and probably a bit higher.

Are the exit options any better? Thanks for the responses, btw

Going to agree with the other respondent that you have to be more specific. "Better" is mostly in the eye of the beholder. In terms of salary, see this survey:

http://www.charlesaris.com/Charles%20Ar ... 202014.pdf

General guideline is 150K+ all-in manager position if you leave before first promotion, Sr. Manager/Director/VP position making significantly more if you leave at a level after the first promotion.

[t-14orbust]

Well, it's my understanding that corporate exit options 3-5 years out are mostly in-house gigs making 1-200k tops with limited advancement potential but decent hours in the range of 40-60 tops which allows for a decent work/life balance. On the lit side it's my understanding that you really only have the options of going to another firm to work similar hours at a small paycut, work at another firm for less hours at a much larger paycut, or attempt to get a government gig working good hours for cheap.
As of now I'm interested in corporate work (hence the MBB/business interests) but I don't really know what I'll like once I get to LS. As for what I'm looking for, I'd say it's a good balance between pay and hours worked, with opportunity for advancement (fuck me, right?).
I guess you should just disregard my question, as what I really meant to ask was what the exit options were, and what employment opportunities look like 5-10+ years down the road.
I see someone answered about the options pre/post first promotion, but how hard is it to get that promotion exactly? Is the attrition because of people being asked to leave, or are they just fed up like in biglaw?

Thanks to all in this thread, and sorry for my rambling

[t-14orbust]

Anyone know the attrition rate at MBB? Is it comparable to the ~3 year 50% average in biglaw?

Yep. Almost exactly the same actually. First promotion window is 18-36 months so a good portion leave in the 30-36 month range. Idk for sure if its a full 50% by end of year 3 but definitely at least a full 50% by end of year 4 and probably a bit higher.

Are the exit options any better? Thanks for the responses, btw

Going to agree with the other respondent that you have to be more specific. "Better" is mostly in the eye of the beholder. In terms of salary, see this survey:

http://www.charlesaris.com/Charles%20Ar ... 202014.pdf

General guideline is 150K+ all-in manager position if you leave before first promotion, Sr. Manager/Director/VP position making significantly more if you leave at a level after the first promotion.

That link is really helpful, thanks

[jbagelboy]

Do they really care about SAT scores even for grad students? I interviewed with Bain in UG and was shocked that they wanted my SAT score and I was actually pretty pissed because it wasn't representative of my actual standardized test taking abilities.

I currently work at a consulting firm that was Vault 50 and has recently fallen out of the rankings. From my experience, I wouldn't go back to a consulting firm over a BigLaw firm unless it's MBB. I think a lot of people want consulting over Biglaw because of perceived fewer hours and more job security, but in reality, job security is about equal (my partner has been trying to get me fired for 8 months now and I'm a top performer) and it's not uncommon for people to be on projects with 80+ hour weeks and/or 5 day a week travel to the middle of nowhere. The stress and workload on average probably isn't as bad as Biglaw, but with the exception of a few firms, you'll be making significantly less and raises and bonuses are virtually nonexistent.

How about MBcg > Biglaw?

I'd second what this poster said, but emphasizing that he's not talking about MBB and probably the tier right below that (Accenture, Deloitte/Big 4, Booz, etc.). I used to be at one of those 2nd tier shops, and I can definitely vouch for the fact that there was a definite perceived dropoff between us and MBB, but also a large dropoff between our tier and all the other random consulting firms out there (there are a million, but an example of a TTT consulting firm IMO is Kurt Salomon). The dropoff is really steep and really quick, quite unlike biglaw where a dropoff exists between, say, a V10 and a V25, but not by much and even the V25 may beat the V10 on certain sectors/practice areas, and where the compensation is likely the same. To be honest, I'm surprised there's even a ranking up to 50 - as a former consultant, I don't think I can even name more than 10-15 significant shops that come to mind, which is very far from the case with law firms.

While I agree there's a dropoff in nationwide notoriety between the largest brand consulting firms like Mckinsey, Deloitte and Booz, and many of the smaller firms, the work quality and substance distinction is specious and mistakes or misrepresents the nature of the consulting practice. Major F500 client work distributes throughout a large number of high quality firms, many of which perform substantially similar work and produce similar deliverables depending on whether its more of a strategy, economic, litigation, supply chain, IT, or other emphasis. Business relationships b/t consultant and company will often carry over wherever you go. At places like Towers Watson and KPMG your experience will not be different from Bain if you're working with the same client and subject area, except that fewer people will know the name of your employer (but they'll know your client). Analysis Group is the top of its field but its a different lifestyle from the Mon - Thurs night travel management consultant positions. I would argue there's a "steep drop-off" in size and breadth of practices/offices, but certainly not clients and work, which matter a lot more if you're interested in specializing anyway.

For example, I started at a larger ("top") brand as analyst and moved into a more boutique consulting firm which represented clients in a particular industry; we represented the biggest international players in that industry, but lacked the breadth (and obviously name recognition) of somewhere like McKinsey. Still, since many of the partners had brought clients over from the big name firms, the work and travel was the same quality and scope.

By "50" are you referring to vault? Why are people on tls obsessed with websites like vault where they shouldn't even apply? Consulting can't be reduced to that type of prestige chasing shit

[igo2northwestern]

Do they really care about SAT scores even for grad students? I interviewed with Bain in UG and was shocked that they wanted my SAT score and I was actually pretty pissed because it wasn't representative of my actual standardized test taking abilities.

I currently work at a consulting firm that was Vault 50 and has recently fallen out of the rankings. From my experience, I wouldn't go back to a consulting firm over a BigLaw firm unless it's MBB. I think a lot of people want consulting over Biglaw because of perceived fewer hours and more job security, but in reality, job security is about equal (my partner has been trying to get me fired for 8 months now and I'm a top performer) and it's not uncommon for people to be on projects with 80+ hour weeks and/or 5 day a week travel to the middle of nowhere. The stress and workload on average probably isn't as bad as Biglaw, but with the exception of a few firms, you'll be making significantly less and raises and bonuses are virtually nonexistent.

How about MBcg > Biglaw?

I'd second what this poster said, but emphasizing that he's not talking about MBB and probably the tier right below that (Accenture, Deloitte/Big 4, Booz, etc.). I used to be at one of those 2nd tier shops, and I can definitely vouch for the fact that there was a definite perceived dropoff between us and MBB, but also a large dropoff between our tier and all the other random consulting firms out there (there are a million, but an example of a TTT consulting firm IMO is Kurt Salomon). The dropoff is really steep and really quick, quite unlike biglaw where a dropoff exists between, say, a V10 and a V25, but not by much and even the V25 may beat the V10 on certain sectors/practice areas, and where the compensation is likely the same. To be honest, I'm surprised there's even a ranking up to 50 - as a former consultant, I don't think I can even name more than 10-15 significant shops that come to mind, which is very far from the case with law firms.

While I agree there's a dropoff in nationwide notoriety between the largest brand consulting firms like Mckinsey, Deloitte and Booz, and many of the smaller firms, the work quality and substance distinction is specious and mistakes or misrepresents the nature of the consulting practice. Major F500 client work distributes throughout a large number of high quality firms, many of which perform substantially similar work and produce similar deliverables depending on whether its more of a strategy, economic, litigation, supply chain, IT, or other emphasis. Business relationships b/t consultant and company will often carry over wherever you go. At places like Towers Watson and KPMG your experience will not be different from Bain if you're working with the same client and subject area, except that fewer people will know the name of your employer (but they'll know your client). Analysis Group is the top of its field but its a different lifestyle from the Mon - Thurs night travel management consultant positions. I would argue there's a "steep drop-off" in size and breadth of practices/offices, but certainly not clients and work, which matter a lot more if you're interested in specializing anyway.

For example, I started at a larger ("top") brand as analyst and moved into a more boutique consulting firm which represented clients in a particular industry; we represented the biggest international players in that industry, but lacked the breadth (and obviously name recognition) of somewhere like McKinsey. Still, since many of the partners had brought clients over from the big name firms, the work and travel was the same quality and scope.

By "50" are you referring to vault? Why are people on tls obsessed with websites like vault where they shouldn't even apply? Consulting can't be reduced to that type of prestige chasing shit

If what OP or anyone is interested in is being a career consultant, then none of this perceived prestige stuff really matters because the criteria is completely different from what I thought it would be (compensation is fine, and travel is to be expected).

But the purpose of consulting, in my opinion, really boils down to two things: high(er) compensation and exits. The compensation at the brand consulting firms is usually better from the beginning to any advancement stage (I don't know how your boutique was, but from what I've heard from people who've worked at boutiques, their salaries were usually lower OR slightly higher to justify the cut in prestige), and exits are unparalleled because of perceived prestige. For MBB vs. others, the difference in perceived prestige is significant. And between larger brands and smaller brands, it is also very significant. What supports this is the fact that the exits are vastly better at the name brand firms. This isn't to say that you can't get good exits out of boutiques, but a pay cut + perhaps more time spent is likely to be in the equation.

As for the actual work, operations is operations. But at brand firms, there are more opportunities to work for better clients. This is an important distinction, because while at MBB you do work in no-name-city every now and then, you really really don't want to be stuck out in the middle of nowhere for 6 months. Further, at MBB, there are more opportunities, substance-wise, to work on more challenging strategy engagements.

I agree that Vault doesn't accurately paint a picture of the consulting profession, just as Vault doesn't paint a perfect picture of the legal profession (see Dovel & Luner), but it's a decent starting point for recruitment. Similar to Vault law rankings, except there are no Williams & Connolly/Munger/Irell-type firms that are hidden in the Vault consulting rankings. MBB is a distinct tier. And this is coming from someone who isn't really a prestige whore (after all, igo2northwestern..).

[igo2northwestern]

Well, it's my understanding that corporate exit options 3-5 years out are mostly in-house gigs making 1-200k tops with limited advancement potential but decent hours in the range of 40-60 tops which allows for a decent work/life balance. On the lit side it's my understanding that you really only have the options of going to another firm to work similar hours at a small paycut, work at another firm for less hours at a much larger paycut, or attempt to get a government gig working good hours for cheap.
As of now I'm interested in corporate work (hence the MBB/business interests) but I don't really know what I'll like once I get to LS. As for what I'm looking for, I'd say it's a good balance between pay and hours worked, with opportunity for advancement (fuck me, right?).
I guess you should just disregard my question, as what I really meant to ask was what the exit options were, and what employment opportunities look like 5-10+ years down the road.
I see someone answered about the options pre/post first promotion, but how hard is it to get that promotion exactly? Is the attrition because of people being asked to leave, or are they just fed up like in biglaw?

Thanks to all in this thread, and sorry for my rambling

I'm not sure what exits are like 7-10 years down the line, but I'll give it a shot for the 3-5. A McK engagement manager or BCG project leader might in an exceptional case become the director of X division at a $XX mm startup. The more frequent exit though is into in-house strat positions. These pay well and have lifestyles probably similar to in-house legal positions. People also move in smaller numbers into hedge funds and PE. I'd estimate it at ~10%, compensation is ~2-3x consulting $. The MBB exits are varied, such that I can't really put my finger on what the norm is. You see people becoming managers across lots of industries, including nonprofit, tech, finance, fashion, health, etc.

Since I mentioned some of the positives, here is the other side of the story. The thing I'm told by a lot of alums is that the value of MBB is a bit oversold -- you get knocked for not ever having industry experience, and once you get into a position, it's pretty much all on you. The MBB alum network is koolaid for the most part.