Harvard 3L taking questions over Christmas break Forum

[utlaw2007]

How do Texas firms look at non-Texans...even for IP?

I use to hear that roots to TX mattered...but the hiring partner of one biglaw TX firm explicitly told me that was not true. I think Texans will NOT look negatively toward non-Texans for 2L SA. There might be some 1L SA suspicion though.

I think it really depends on the firm. I had a midLaw firm interviewer tell me that because I was from Houston and had no ties to Dallas, that there was no way they would hire me. The entire interview was about how I would hate Dallas since I was from Houston. On the other hand, I have had tons of out of state law school classmates get Big Law offers in all of the major metropolitan Texas cities. They all attended UT Law so I'm sure that has something to do with it.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Tagging cuz I'm all over Harvard students taking questions thread. Oh, I'll ask a question.

WHY haven't we run into each other IRL yet?

Oh, and for the lurking 0Ls or stalking upperclassmen, I'm a 2L, won't say where I'm from cuz I have enough personal info on here already, will be in California next summer for biglaw, and def. not on track to grad with cum laude cuz I failed to show up to 100% of my corporations classes in November (it was before Noon, too much to ask).

Should've taken corp with Coates. No cold calling + no final = you don't have to read a page of corp law.

[DoubleChecks]

Tagging cuz I'm all over Harvard students taking questions thread. Oh, I'll ask a question.

WHY haven't we run into each other IRL yet?

Oh, and for the lurking 0Ls or stalking upperclassmen, I'm a 2L, won't say where I'm from cuz I have enough personal info on here already, will be in California next summer for biglaw, and def. not on track to grad with cum laude cuz I failed to show up to 100% of my corporations classes in November (it was before Noon, too much to ask).

Should've taken corp with Coates. No cold calling + no final = you don't have to read a page of corp law.

Was that the one w/ the HBS students? With "group work"? lol

As a random aside, Coates for 1L classes isn't as great because he's "too practical."

[Hattori Hanzo]

Tagging cuz I'm all over Harvard students taking questions thread. Oh, I'll ask a question.

WHY haven't we run into each other IRL yet?

Oh, and for the lurking 0Ls or stalking upperclassmen, I'm a 2L, won't say where I'm from cuz I have enough personal info on here already, will be in California next summer for biglaw, and def. not on track to grad with cum laude cuz I failed to show up to 100% of my corporations classes in November (it was before Noon, too much to ask).

Should've taken corp with Coates. No cold calling + no final = you don't have to read a page of corp law.

Was that the one w/ the HBS students? With "group work"? lol

As a random aside, Coates for 1L classes isn't as great because he's "too practical."

Yeah. Grades are based on a group paper (6000 words, 5 students). Best class ever.
I think I have mastered the art of going through law school with minimum effort. Since my 1L year I have had 2 classes that I had to read casebooks for.

[094320]

..

[DoubleChecks]

Tagging cuz I'm all over Harvard students taking questions thread. Oh, I'll ask a question.

WHY haven't we run into each other IRL yet?

Oh, and for the lurking 0Ls or stalking upperclassmen, I'm a 2L, won't say where I'm from cuz I have enough personal info on here already, will be in California next summer for biglaw, and def. not on track to grad with cum laude cuz I failed to show up to 100% of my corporations classes in November (it was before Noon, too much to ask).

Should've taken corp with Coates. No cold calling + no final = you don't have to read a page of corp law.

Was that the one w/ the HBS students? With "group work"? lol

As a random aside, Coates for 1L classes isn't as great because he's "too practical."

Yeah. Grades are based on a group paper (6000 words, 5 students). Best class ever.
I think I have mastered the art of going through law school with minimum effort. Since my 1L year I have had 2 classes that I had to read casebooks for.

Personally didn't take Coates' corps (I had Clark), but I did hear about the "laxness" in the workload haha. However, one critique my friends did have for it was that working in groups w/ business students can be infuriating because they don't believe in citing anything...or grammar lol.

[DoubleChecks]

How do Texas firms look at non-Texans...even for IP?

I use to hear that roots to TX mattered...but the hiring partner of one biglaw TX firm explicitly told me that was not true. I think Texans will NOT look negatively toward non-Texans for 2L SA. There might be some 1L SA suspicion though.

I think it really depends on the firm. I had a midLaw firm interviewer tell me that because I was from Houston and had no ties to Dallas, that there was no way they would hire me. The entire interview was about how I would hate Dallas since I was from Houston. On the other hand, I have had tons of out of state law school classmates get Big Law offers in all of the major metropolitan Texas cities. They all attended UT Law so I'm sure that has something to do with it.

I think you're right actually, when it comes to smaller firms. I was mostly just thinking about TX biglaw firms, but I did have cbs w/ a few smaller ones. The issue of whether I had TX ties or not did not come up that often (I grew up in TX so it is pretty self-explanatory), but I definitely did get the sense that that would be something they cared about. So I guess my caveat would be, bigger TX biglaw firms probably don't care at all (as long as you have a reasonable reason why you would want to be in the TX legal market), while smaller firms may vary quite a bit/care more about TX ties.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Personally didn't take Coates' corps (I had Clark), but I did hear about the "laxness" in the workload haha. However, one critique my friends did have for it was that working in groups w/ business students can be infuriating because they don't believe in citing anything...or grammar lol.

Yea they're atrocious but I think they grade each part separately. Our final paper had two completely different styles of writing and citation and we still got an H.

I had Clark for 2 days this fall (M&A) but it looked like too much work so I dropped it. The M&A workshop over J-term is the one to take.

[DoubleChecks]

Personally didn't take Coates' corps (I had Clark), but I did hear about the "laxness" in the workload haha. However, one critique my friends did have for it was that working in groups w/ business students can be infuriating because they don't believe in citing anything...or grammar lol.

Yea they're atrocious but I think they grade each part separately. Our final paper had two completely different styles of writing and citation and we still got an H.

I had Clark for 2 days this fall (M&A) but it looked like too much work so I dropped it. The M&A workshop over J-term is the one to take.

I heard Clark's M&A was intense. And yeah, not saying it would negatively affect your grade working w/ HBS students...my friends were just shedding tears at the actual frustration of doing so hahaha.

[094320]

..

[AllTheLawz]

Tagging cuz I'm all over Harvard students taking questions thread. Oh, I'll ask a question.

WHY haven't we run into each other IRL yet?

Oh, and for the lurking 0Ls or stalking upperclassmen, I'm a 2L, won't say where I'm from cuz I have enough personal info on here already, will be in California next summer for biglaw, and def. not on track to grad with cum laude cuz I failed to show up to 100% of my corporations classes in November (it was before Noon, too much to ask).

Should've taken corp with Coates. No cold calling + no final = you don't have to read a page of corp law.

Ehh it has a 1-hour final exam now. Apparently people complained about no final in the past. It sucks because you have to learn all of corps for a tiny exam and it's multiple choice with a little short answer sprinkled in so you cant really BS it. Pretty sure I got no better than a 70%.

[Hattori Hanzo]

I heard Clark's M&A was intense. And yeah, not saying it would negatively affect your grade working w/ HBS students...my friends were just shedding tears at the actual frustration of doing so hahaha.

Well yeah, if you think biglaw bound 2Ls and 3Ls are on "vacation"...I thought I was partying hard until I met some HBS students. NEVERMIND.

Okay you two, any must-take classes with certain profs?

Depends on what you're looking for. My advice is probably not very useful because I never intended to go into law after graduation so I have taken my classes based on schedule (nothing before noon) and amount of work. HOWEVER that j-term M&A workshop is recommended. It's very easy (no cases, just analyzing actual M&A cases) and considered the same as Clark's M&A hell.

[Stinson]

All incoming students should be aware that, whatever the difficulties relative to Professor Coates, Professor Clark's corporations class features several full fledged musical numbers. As in, he will end class early and sing songs that he has written about corporations to you. There will be musical accompaniment and everything. Make the right choice, 1L's.

[Doorkeeper]

All incoming students should be aware that, whatever the difficulties relative to Professor Coates, Professor Clark's corporations class features several full fledged musical numbers. As in, he will end class early and sing songs that he has written about corporations to you. There will be musical accompaniment and everything. Make the right choice, 1L's.

I'll just taking Hanson's Corporations.

[094320]

..

[Doorkeeper]

All incoming students should be aware that, whatever the difficulties relative to Professor Coates, Professor Clark's corporations class features several full fledged musical numbers. As in, he will end class early and sing songs that he has written about corporations to you. There will be musical accompaniment and everything. Make the right choice, 1L's.

I'll just taking Hanson's Corporations.

Ugh, no. If you're looking for an easy Corps class, take Ramseyer and buy his supplement. Everything you need to know is in there.

Haha. I want to have Corporations on my transcript without having actually studied Corporations.

You. You're doing HLS correctly.

I'm totally being serious.

Thanks. Are you a 1L? I suggest taking 1L somewhat seriously. I spent 2L fall semester drunk. I'll let you know when grades roll out if that was a good idea.

Yea, I am. I did take them pretty seriously. I was drunk for half of each weekend, but I still worked 7 days a week and I buckled down for finals. I think I struck a nice balance, but I'll see soon enough how things played out. haha.

[094320]

..

[smittytron3k]

I actually think Corps is one of the few classes where the contents are basics every lawyer should know.

This.

Take a Nesson class instead.

But not this.

[chickenalfredo]

How easy is to get an H in Nesson's American Jury?

[unc0mm0n1]

We haven't run into each other, but I am sure I have creepily recognized you from afar hahaha.

...

And yeah wow 100% is impressive. I missed a third of my corps class, and so did 2 of my other close friends. When we were studying, we were hoping together we would equal 100% attendance (as far as the material went)...apparently we overlapped on the 1/3 that we each knew.../poor planning.

I used to creepily recognize GeePee from afar, then I decided last semester to just introduce myself randomly one day "HI, you're GeePee, I recognize you from that one time you self-tar'ed. I'm acrossthelake!" It was gloriously awkward.

My prof wrote a supplement that was nearly identical to lecture, so I figured I'd just read class later...

To add to the anecdotes, I had grades slightly above median and targeted two secondary markets--one that is fairly insular and difficult, and the other that is somewhat difficult, but not really. I got 6 callbacks out of 16 screeners in the first secondary market, and 3 callbacks out of 5 in the second, and 1 out of 2 in NYC(lol,panicked and added last-minute when OCS told me my list was too risky and that I needed some safeties). Out of those, I got 3 offers in the first, wiped out in the second even though they were way easier odds-wise(they were VERY UNHAPPY to hear that I was interviewing in the first market), and cancelled my NYC callback after I got my offer from my current firm.

I hate NYC and I didn't target any firms there. I had slightly below median grades and OCS told me I should have some NYC safety firms. I was very close to doing it before I got my first CB. Ended up getting CBs to 26 of the 31 firms I interviewed with. The CBs I didn't get were the firms that focused on grades and a firm that I showed up 15 min late for. I truly think if you are a good interviewer you can do great no matter what your grades are.

[unc0mm0n1]

How do Texas firms look at non-Texans...even for IP?

I use to hear that roots to TX mattered...but the hiring partner of one biglaw TX firm explicitly told me that was not true. I think Texans will NOT look negatively toward non-Texans for 2L SA. There might be some 1L SA suspicion though.

I think it really depends on the firm. I had a midLaw firm interviewer tell me that because I was from Houston and had no ties to Dallas, that there was no way they would hire me. The entire interview was about how I would hate Dallas since I was from Houston. On the other hand, I have had tons of out of state law school classmates get Big Law offers in all of the major metropolitan Texas cities. They all attended UT Law so I'm sure that has something to do with it.

Didn't attend UT, not from Texas and went 5 for 6 in Texas. I only applied to big Texas firms so I'm not sure how midlaw Texas firms work. But as far as the ones I applied to, I think ties are important but selling them on why you want to be in Texas is just as important.

[DoubleChecks]

Haha. I want to have Corporations on my transcript without having actually studied Corporations.

I felt the same for Evidence (unsure now why I wanted it on my transcript given that I'm doing transactional work...), so I took Nesson's class

I actually think Corps is one of the few classes where the contents are basics every lawyer should know.

This.

Take a Nesson class instead.

But not this.

How easy is to get an H in Nesson's American Jury?

lol corps definitely is a class any transactional attorney should know...at least for background. But take a Nesson class too! I know Smitty disliked it, but I enjoyed it (it's an "experience"). Please don't view it as a learning/law experience though...you may be let down. If you try to envision where he's coming from, it works out and you should get an H I suppose. That being said, he isn't necessarily entertaining in a way most entertaining people would be...he's "Nesson entertaining"...which just ends up being painful for many. Regardless of how much you hate/enjoy the class though, one plus is there is virtually no work or studying involved.

[DoubleChecks]

We haven't run into each other, but I am sure I have creepily recognized you from afar hahaha.

...

And yeah wow 100% is impressive. I missed a third of my corps class, and so did 2 of my other close friends. When we were studying, we were hoping together we would equal 100% attendance (as far as the material went)...apparently we overlapped on the 1/3 that we each knew.../poor planning.

I used to creepily recognize GeePee from afar, then I decided last semester to just introduce myself randomly one day "HI, you're GeePee, I recognize you from that one time you self-tar'ed. I'm acrossthelake!" It was gloriously awkward.

My prof wrote a supplement that was nearly identical to lecture, so I figured I'd just read class later...

To add to the anecdotes, I had grades slightly above median and targeted two secondary markets--one that is fairly insular and difficult, and the other that is somewhat difficult, but not really. I got 6 callbacks out of 16 screeners in the first secondary market, and 3 callbacks out of 5 in the second, and 1 out of 2 in NYC(lol,panicked and added last-minute when OCS told me my list was too risky and that I needed some safeties). Out of those, I got 3 offers in the first, wiped out in the second even though they were way easier odds-wise(they were VERY UNHAPPY to hear that I was interviewing in the first market), and cancelled my NYC callback after I got my offer from my current firm.

I hate NYC and I didn't target any firms there. I had slightly below median grades and OCS told me I should have some NYC safety firms. I was very close to doing it before I got my first CB. Ended up getting CBs to 26 of the 31 firms I interviewed with. The CBs I didn't get were the firms that focused on grades and a firm that I showed up 15 min late for. I truly think if you are a good interviewer you can do great no matter what your grades are.

This is generally my experience, and seemingly the experience of nearly everyone I know. Interviewing skills > grades for the majority of firms. Extreme cases and super selective firms are exceptions, plus the obvious tweaks one should make (i.e., DC market slightly tougher than NYC, etc.).

OCS errs on the side of caution a lot, which makes sense if you think about their point of view/where they are coming from. Incentives are a bit different for you and them.

[AllTheLawz]

Speaking of interviewing skills > grades... Anyone ever heard of there being employment consequences for a LP 2L year? Talking about firms that typically offer 100%.

[smittytron3k]

Yeah, I should clarify that a lot of people like Nesson's class, and even those who don't (like me) will concede that it's not very much work. I just thought that the class was vacuous, didn't enjoy being a guinea pig for poorly-conceived teaching experiments (like spending a day on a "read-aloud" of a Supreme Court oral argument), and resented getting a P on an exam that was so bad it ended up on ATL. Then again, I loved admin and fed courts, so it might be the case that my preferences are simply the opposite of everyone else's.