Loyola Law School Forum

[stuffedburrito]

loyola law school employment statistics; broken down quite well.

http://intranet.lls.edu/careerservices/ ... tstats.pdf

If those statistics are correct, LLS places pretty well don't you guys think? It is much, much more optimistic than what Loyola2L and other pessimistic players argue.

[hiphoppopotamus]

It is much, much more optimistic than what Loyola2L and other pessimistic players argue.

absolutely.

1. i don't know exactly how seriously we can take Loyola2L; i have a feeling he may be a lone dissenter and not giving LLS the credit it deserves- perhaps he is projecting his own faults onto the school rather than conducting a thorough self-examination as to why he is having trouble getting a good job.

2. i feel like people have been using a little bit of flawed logic in discussing employment opportunities. true, if biglaw, then good job. but that is not to say if not biglaw, then not good job....there are plenty of high paying jobs in medium-very large sized firms that sort of go unnoticed on forums like this sometimes.

so, i feel like if you conduct real research, rather than relying on only the school and the forums, you will be quite surprised and comfortable with what you find...loyola is becoming more and more attractive to me everyday- especially w/ a 2/3 scholarship.

[sockpuppet]

Loyola law school employment statistics; broken down quite well.

http://intranet.lls.edu/careerservices/ ... tstats.pdf

If those statistics are correct, LLS places pretty well don't you guys think? It is much, much more optimistic than what Loyola2L and other pessimistic players argue.

i feel like people have been using a little bit of flawed logic in discussing employment opportunities. true, if biglaw, then good job. but that is not to say if not biglaw, then not good job....there are plenty of high paying jobs in medium-very large sized firms that sort of go unnoticed on forums like this sometimes.

The only category with average salary over $100k is Very Large Firm. If you back out the percentages and number reporting in private practice, then you find that 66 graduates placed in this category (15% of the class). This just happens to match the number (66) who reported getting jobs through OCI. Half of the class wind up in government, public interest, and Very Small or Small firms. Despite the "average" salary of $65 - 85k in these categories, the truth is that most of these people will be making more like $45k. You'll notice that they report averages here rather than medians or quartiles, in order to obfuscate the actual distribution.

http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_le ... on-of.html

Another fifth (the same fifth that couldn't manage to pass the bar) wind up in Business & Industry, which means flipping burgers or temping for California minimum wage (notice that they report no salary data at all for this category). Only about twenty-nine wind up in mid-law (the Medium and Large firm categories). That does not seem like, "plenty of high paying jobs in medium sized firms."

The top 1/5 of the class seems to do well, more or less, maybe with a bit of struggle for those outside the top 10%. If you feel good about dealing with $150k debt on a $45k salary, or having to rank in the top 15% to get a job through OCI and earn north of $100k, then you may agree that they, "place pretty well," and, "it's not as bad as they say." This does not mean that going to Loyola will absolutely prevent you from getting a good legal job or making decent money. But don't kid yourself -- the odds are 4 in 5 against.

[hiphoppopotamus]

Half of the class wind up in government, public interest, and Very Small or Small firms.

and...? you don't know that those in government and public interest didn't do it by choice. government offers great benefits and early retirement in addition to interesting career paths (although i don't think they would be for me). public interest offers an opportunity to do something very noble with your degree. furthermore, there are many organizations that will pay back or help you pay back your loans if you are committed to public interest law. as for small and very small firms- while they don't offer the big money out of the gate for law students, they do offer opportunities for advancement and experience. so while that 1st year associate is only making 60k out of the gate, perhaps in 5 years they will be making well over 100k, either with that small firm or with another they were able to switch over to. it is important to keep in mind that these are only numbers for the first year out of law school. at that point, i will be 26. i don't need to make six figures when i am 26- although i definitely wouldn't mind.

Another fifth (the same fifth that couldn't manage to pass the bar) wind up in Business & Industry, which means flipping burgers or temping for California minimum wage (notice that they report no salary data at all for this category)

so not working in the legal profession automatically makes you a minimum wage worker? pretty sure you would still have more education than about 99% of Americans, and so I highly doubt that law school graduates who placed low in their class or didn't pass the bar are being reduced to "flipping burgers" or standing in temp lines.

and speaking of bar pass rates, it is interesting to note that while loyola has a 78% pass rate, boalt is only 82%. are we to assume that those despicable 18% boalt grads are flipping burgers as well?

The top 1/5 of the class seems to do well, more or less, maybe with a bit of struggle for those outside the top 10%. If you feel good about dealing with $150k debt on a $45k salary, or having to rank in the top 15% to get a job through OCI and earn north of $100k, then you may agree that they, "place pretty well," and, "it's not as bad as they say." This does not mean that going to Loyola will absolutely prevent you from getting a good legal job or making decent money. But don't kid yourself -- the odds are 4 in 5 against.

i don't know anybody who would feel good about $150k in debt on a $45k salary, but that is certainly the extreme in both cases, wouldn't you say? the number of people who are covering 100% of their educational costs and earning at the lowest point on the pay scale are likely few and far between. in fact, i would be willing to guess that many of those who are covering their full tuition are more likely to come out on top, as their investment and risks are that much greater.

if 66/405 are working in very large firms, and another 29 are in medium-large, then that is a total of 95/405 working in medium-very large firms, or 23.5%. if you use the same numbers for those who actually go into private practice (again, we can't just assume that those unfortunate souls who go into public interest or government are doing so against their will, and there is no need to include those who don't pass the bar) you get 96/238, or 40.3%. both of these are about what i would expect from a school like loyola.

You'll notice that they report averages here rather than medians or quartiles, in order to obfuscate the actual distribution.

actually, you'll notice that they do use medians. they also use averages. take another gander. i'm pretty sure i'll be able to live with myself if I am making 70k/year when i am 26 years old (which would be the median at a very small firm- i know how you love medians).

look, i was never trying to present this as if LLS somehow equated to HLS in terms of employment prospects. obviously they are not even close to being in the same league. what i was hoping to do, and what I am pretty sure I have done, is show that employment prospects out of LLS (yes, there are many of us who are actually considering going here- you know, the ones who didn't get in at t14 schools) are not as dire as Loyola2L or sockpuppet would have us think. the whole point i was making was that it seems like on TLS there is an attitude that if you aren't making 150k/year directly out of law school that it would be a complete waste of time and money to attend law school.

perhaps i am a bit more optimistic about LLS and their placement because of the 2/3 scholarship I have been offered there (which obviously makes my financial situation much more managable and my stress over finding a six-figure income slightly alleviated).

i think we are reading the employment opportunities here pretty much in the same way, although perhaps our standards of what constitutes a good job is where we deviate from one another...

[agent433]

basically it looks likes u gotta be top 15-20% for a 6 figure job. and honestly, how can u expect anythin more from a non tier 1 school? thats actually pretty good imo.

[Jesse]

I graduated from Loyola in May 2007. First off, I walked to school every day for my first two years since I lived about a block and 1/2 away. It was probably not wise, but nothing bad happened to me. The campus itself is very secure and there were no security incidents on campus the entire time I was there. Its so secure and blocked off to the outside surroudings, you really forget you are in the middle of LA and the campus is kept in manicured condition. Second, although the bar passage rate was 78% for my class (2007), one should keep in mind that we are a much larger law school than most CA schools except for Hastings maybe. In addition, Loyola has an evening school and its well known that an evening school can bring down the bar passage rate significantly since many of the students work and have families to take care of. Hastings which is comparable in overall student body size does not have a night school and neither does Berkely, Stanford, UCLA, or USC. If you take the 12% that failed the bar and divide it evenly between day and night, then the day division (which is aproximately about 320/400 students) would have a 84% pass rate. Finally, Loyola is more competitive than it might seem by its rankings which are bogus in so many respects anyways. I knew plenty of people that chose Loyola over top 20 schools including myself to take a full ride or 2/3 scholarship. I really don't have any regrets since I was not aiming for big law to begin with. What this may mean is that it is not a cake walk to make the top 10-20%. I knew some brilliant and not so brilliant people that got Cs and some people that were good at exams but not much else got As. What I can assure is that the professors are VERY GOOD lecturers and always willing to meet with you for extra help when you need it. One of my favorite professors would often give me such great explanations after class that he would sometimes apologize for taking so much of my time! I only fell asleep once in 3 years of class and it was only because I was attending class after an all nighter of school work. Also, I was able to participate in Law Review, Trial Advocacy, worked for the DA, Disability Rights Legal Center, and Bet Ztedek Legal Services during law school. These experiences were possible because of Loyola's strong presence and connections in LA and they are the kind of experiences that will help a student become a good attorney more than just academic classes alone. Hope this helps some of you.

[stuffedburrito]

I graduated from Loyola in May 2007. First off, I walked to school every day for my first two years since I lived about a block and 1/2 away. It was probably not wise, but nothing bad happened to me. The campus itself is very secure and there were no security incidents on campus the entire time I was there. Its so secure and blocked off to the outside surroudings, you really forget you are in the middle of LA and the campus is kept in manicured condition. Second, although the bar passage rate was 78% for my class (2007), one should keep in mind that we are a much larger law school than most CA schools except for Hastings maybe. In addition, Loyola has an evening school and its well known that an evening school can bring down the bar passage rate significantly since many of the students work and have families to take care of. Hastings which is comparable in overall student body size does not have a night school and neither does Berkely, Stanford, UCLA, or USC. If you take the 12% that failed the bar and divide it evenly between day and night, then the day division (which is aproximately about 320/400 students) would have a 84% pass rate. Finally, Loyola is more competitive than it might seem by its rankings which are bogus in so many respects anyways. I knew plenty of people that chose Loyola over top 20 schools including myself to take a full ride or 2/3 scholarship. I really don't have any regrets since I was not aiming for big law to begin with. What this may mean is that it is not a cake walk to make the top 10-20%. I knew some brilliant and not so brilliant people that got Cs and some people that were good at exams but not much else got As. What I can assure is that the professors are VERY GOOD lecturers and always willing to meet with you for extra help when you need it. One of my favorite professors would often give me such great explanations after class that he would sometimes apologize for taking so much of my time! I only fell asleep once in 3 years of class and it was only because I was attending class after an all nighter of school work. Also, I was able to participate in Law Review, Trial Advocacy, worked for the DA, Disability Rights Legal Center, and Bet Ztedek Legal Services during law school. These experiences were possible because of Loyola's strong presence and connections in LA and they are the kind of experiences that will help a student become a good attorney more than just academic classes alone. Hope this helps some of you.

Not to be so blunt, but where are you working at now, what type of law are you doing, and what kind of salary do you make? Since you participated in Law Review, I'm guessing you were in the top 10% of your 1L class? Sorry if the questions are too straightforward, but I really want to know these realities. You can ignore them if you choose to.

[Jesse]

Not to be so blunt, but where are you working at now, what type of law are you doing, and what kind of salary do you make? Since you participated in Law Review, I'm guessing you were in the top 10% of your 1L class? Sorry if the questions are too straightforward, but I really want to know these realities. You can ignore them if you choose to. [/quote]

Not a problem. after law school, I took and passed the July 2007 California Bar and then I moved to Washington, my home state after deciding to be closer to my family near Seattle. I was hesitant to move because the conventional wisdom was to remain in the LA area where the market is supposed to be strongest for Loyola grads. I have some friends and acquaintances in Seattle that are attorneys and they told me to just get up here and it would work out. I was not top 10% of my class, I was in the middle of the class. At Loyola, everyone has to participate in the write on competition. Each paper is graded by 5 different people and averaged out. I scored well enough to get my first pick of the three law reviews at Loyola and I chose the Entertainment Law Review (ELR) because it seemed more interesting to me (intellectual property and lots of first amendment issues). I believe the top 10% is invited on but they still have to do the write on or they lose their invitation. After my year as a staffer, I was selected for the executive board of ELR. Since I moved to Washington in September 2007, I was not very successful in the job hunt because I was not yet admitted anywhere. I was admitted in CA and was told that it would help me in the job hunt and I did manage to secure an interview with the public interest firm I initially wanted to work for before I moved up to Washington. My interviewing with this firm went to the final round. I wasn't expecting to do well because they want attorneys that are conversational in Spanish and I am not. I have a background in Spanish and they were willing to try me out anyway and may invest in some Spanish training for me if I'm hired. I am still waiting for results for the Washington Bar Exam which I took in Feb. 2008 and if all goes well, then I will have a job too. My job opportunities were much better in the LA area and I was able to get plenty of interviews during my final year of school with public interest firms and mid sized private firms but living in WA was more important to me. If I had to borrow for my tuition, it would have been a different story as I would have stayed in LA. Plenty of my friends got jobs in LA and were not in the top 10%. One of my friends was in the middle of the class and made it on to ELR and had a job at a smaller firm waiting for her at graduation starting out at 80K. Some of my friends work for the DA and the AG starting at about 52-56K working 40-45hrs/week and some who were in the top 15% started off at 160K and working 80 plus hours a week at firms like Skadden and O'Melveny. There are plenty of opportunities for Loyola grads who are willing to work for them one way or another. However, if you simply want a top 250 law firm job and big bucks, then my personal feeling is that there are easier ways to make that kind of money that take less of an investment then 3 years and 110K in tuition and another 50K in living expenses. You would be better off going to a top 20 law school. If you want to become a good lawyer and have a good support system and work in LA or Southern Cal, then Loyola is a great school to do it at. I would not have gone to Loyola if I couldn't accept the great possibility (85% chance) that I would not get a big law firm job. I would have went to a top 20 or 14 school or not at all.

[mes789]

...

[publicservant101]

thank you jesse! i feel like a great load has been taken off my chest!

[Herbellis]

Outstanding post Jesse! Thanks for taking the time.

[getreal]

I graduated from Loyola in May 2007. First off, I walked to school every day for my first two years since I lived about a block and 1/2 away. It was probably not wise, but nothing bad happened to me. The campus itself is very secure and there were no security incidents on campus the entire time I was there. Its so secure and blocked off to the outside surroudings, you really forget you are in the middle of LA and the campus is kept in manicured condition. Second, although the bar passage rate was 78% for my class (2007), one should keep in mind that we are a much larger law school than most CA schools except for Hastings maybe. In addition, Loyola has an evening school and its well known that an evening school can bring down the bar passage rate significantly since many of the students work and have families to take care of. Hastings which is comparable in overall student body size does not have a night school and neither does Berkely, Stanford, UCLA, or USC. If you take the 12% that failed the bar and divide it evenly between day and night, then the day division (which is aproximately about 320/400 students) would have a 84% pass rate. Finally, Loyola is more competitive than it might seem by its rankings which are bogus in so many respects anyways. I knew plenty of people that chose Loyola over top 20 schools including myself to take a full ride or 2/3 scholarship. I really don't have any regrets since I was not aiming for big law to begin with. What this may mean is that it is not a cake walk to make the top 10-20%. I knew some brilliant and not so brilliant people that got Cs and some people that were good at exams but not much else got As. What I can assure is that the professors are VERY GOOD lecturers and always willing to meet with you for extra help when you need it. One of my favorite professors would often give me such great explanations after class that he would sometimes apologize for taking so much of my time! I only fell asleep once in 3 years of class and it was only because I was attending class after an all nighter of school work. Also, I was able to participate in Law Review, Trial Advocacy, worked for the DA, Disability Rights Legal Center, and Bet Ztedek Legal Services during law school. These experiences were possible because of Loyola's strong presence and connections in LA and they are the kind of experiences that will help a student become a good attorney more than just academic classes alone. Hope this helps some of you.

You're in serious need of some training in very basic math. First of all, if 78% passed the bar, then 22% (not 12%) failed it. Secondly, percentages are not additive when applied to fractions, so there is no "dividing" of percentages. The 320/400 day students would have a 78% pass rate, and the 80/400 night students would have also have a 78% pass rate.

Sheesh.

[barashka]

Hi,
I am a Southwestern Law School (Los Angeles) 2L Evening student. I just got accepted to Loyola's (LA) 2L Evening program.
Does anybody have an opinion if tranferring to Loyola is really worth it?
Thanks in advance!

[hjmarkar]

I've been reading this site constantly for the past 2 weeks, and it has given me the feeling that if I don't go to HYS, or CCN, then my future will be pretty dim. Realistically, however, I don't think that is true. My sister and her best friend both attended Loyola, graduated in 2006 (both in the part time program). My sister was number 2 in her class, (the school waives the tuition for the top 2% or top 5% of students), didn't participate in any reviews, got a job at a small firm (about 30 attorneys) making 90k. Although a 90k salary doesn't sound that great, she worked about 45hrs/week for 2 years, then quit, and went to a slightly larger firm making 140k, and still working less than 50hrs/week.

My sisters friend went strait to big law out of loyola. She was between the top 25% and top 50% of her class. She started out making 160k with huge bonuses. She was working 80hrs/week, and hated every minute of it. She quit after a year and went in-house at a TV satellite company, making ~120k, with much more subtle bonuses. She works the normal 40hr/week, and is very happy where she is.

So, I don't think going to a school like Loyola closes the doors on a high salary. Anyway, just thought I would share some personal information.

[nkrienke32]

Is it necessary to have a car if you go to Loyola? Can anyone describe how one's lifestyle would be different with or without a car at Loyola? I have been to LA but only briefly and I understand the public transpo is not great; I will not be able to afford a car for law school. Thanks for any information!

[CourierTwelve]

I used to live a block or two west of Loyola Law in LA. You need a car. The area you're in has a Ralph's, but it's over by USC. Loyola is in a rough part of town too. There's quite a bit of drug activity nearby and Downtown is a ghosttown at night. Everywhere you'll want to go is up in Hollywood or out in Santa Monica, and you don't want to take the bus.

[smOkesCreen]

the only truth in courier's post is that you will need a car in LA.

[CourierTwelve]

the only truth in courier's post is that you will need a car in LA.

Oh yeah. What was I thinking. Go hang out on the corner of Bonnie Brae and Seventh after dark - it's great.

Also, Downtown LA is known for its lack of drug activity, fantastic transportation, and plentiful grocery stores on every corner.

What got into me.

[NYLAW20]

Hi, was accepted to Loyola's evening program. Does anyone know what is required or expected in order to transfer to full time? Also, are the career services and other programs that are available to full-time students also available to the evening students? Thanks for any feedback.

[Ntrance]

Hi, was accepted to Loyola's evening program. Does anyone know what is required or expected in order to transfer to full time? Also, are the career services and other programs that are available to full-time students also available to the evening students? Thanks for any feedback.

Just need a 2.8 gpa after 1L, then you can automatically transfer to day

[NYLAW20]

Thanks for the response. Doe anyone know about the availability of OCI to part time students? What are the main disdvantages that Loyola part timers have? Thanks.

[ruleser]

Does ANYONE know... is this really such a bad area as everyone says? I have been told that to go here I would have to "carry a gun" and it is keeping me from being happy about the acceptance!

USC is actually in a far worse neighborhood. There's just not much to where Loyola is, it's not great, but not war torn. Basically you won't live around there or walk around at night, but the campus is self-enclosed and right off the freeway.

[ruleser]

the only truth in courier's post is that you will need a car in LA.

Oh yeah. What was I thinking. Go hang out on the corner of Bonnie Brae and Seventh after dark - it's great.

Also, Downtown LA is known for its lack of drug activity, fantastic transportation, and plentiful grocery stores on every corner.

What got into me.

Nice. Yes, since they rid the town of gangs, drugs, all the extra money that used to go to police now has been used to make all sidewalks coveryor belts that get you anywhere you want to go with 6 seconds.

Oh, and the smog is completely gone.

[SK714]

I've posted this in a few other places on TLS, but I think its something that any LA local that is considering Loyola would want to read:
I got into Loyola...
I didn't get any aid offers, so pretty much everything I will be paying is going to be taken out as a loan. My parents have a house in the valley, approx 15 miles away from campus, and I live there now. It's not a huge place, but I do have my own room, my own desk, my own tv, and i live pretty comfortably. Parents cook food all the time, they can help me with day-to-day stuff like laundry, so much of my 'needs' are taken care of at home. Would it be a bad idea to live at home during my first year? Or should I get my own place no matter what?

Perks: I would be saving about 10k a year by living at home. I personally don't mind living at home. No one bugs me, the house is usually quiet, I am comfortable here, and its much cheaper that living away from home (I moved out for two years during undergrad). Good food, and other 'amenities.'

Cons: The commute to school will realistically take about an hour by car in the mornings, and about 20 minutes on the way back home IF i stay on/near campus until 8pm. Or I can take the metro which should take about 30 minutes each way. I am also concerned that I may have a slightly retarded social life during law school if i stay at home. I won't be able to go out and drink/party with fellow 1Ls in downtown LA because I will have to drive home after. I won't be able to have too many people over whenever I want and I won't be able to get as loud as I want late at night. This would really suck because I am a very social person, I love making friends, hanging out, drinking, and having a good time. I wouldn't want the lack of all of these comforts to add on to my stress level.

Basically, my questions are as follows:
Would this 1:00-1:30 daily commute time be better spent studying/reading?
Is it worth spending 10k+ a year to save about 8-10 hours of commute time every week?
Will the added luxury of having food, laundry, cleaning, etc taken care of be beneficial to me during my first year?
Should I try just living at home for the first semester and then possibly move downtown closer to campus?

Your advice would be very much appreciated! Thanks!

[jcwilsn1]

I've posted this in a few other places on TLS, but I think its something that any LA local that is considering Loyola would want to read:
I got into Loyola...
I didn't get any aid offers, so pretty much everything I will be paying is going to be taken out as a loan. My parents have a house in the valley, approx 15 miles away from campus, and I live there now. It's not a huge place, but I do have my own room, my own desk, my own tv, and i live pretty comfortably. Parents cook food all the time, they can help me with day-to-day stuff like laundry, so much of my 'needs' are taken care of at home. Would it be a bad idea to live at home during my first year? Or should I get my own place no matter what?

Perks: I would be saving about 10k a year by living at home. I personally don't mind living at home. No one bugs me, the house is usually quiet, I am comfortable here, and its much cheaper that living away from home (I moved out for two years during undergrad). Good food, and other 'amenities.'

Cons: The commute to school will realistically take about an hour by car in the mornings, and about 20 minutes on the way back home IF i stay on/near campus until 8pm. Or I can take the metro which should take about 30 minutes each way. I am also concerned that I may have a slightly retarded social life during law school if i stay at home. I won't be able to go out and drink/party with fellow 1Ls in downtown LA because I will have to drive home after. I won't be able to have too many people over whenever I want and I won't be able to get as loud as I want late at night. This would really suck because I am a very social person, I love making friends, hanging out, drinking, and having a good time. I wouldn't want the lack of all of these comforts to add on to my stress level.

Basically, my questions are as follows:
Would this 1:00-1:30 daily commute time be better spent studying/reading?
Is it worth spending 10k+ a year to save about 8-10 hours of commute time every week?
Will the added luxury of having food, laundry, cleaning, etc taken care of be beneficial to me during my first year?
Should I try just living at home for the first semester and then possibly move downtown closer to campus?

Your advice would be very much appreciated! Thanks!

For me in your situation, I would live at home. Your social life is going to be retarded the first year completely independent of where you'll be sleeping. not having to take care of household chores will surprisingly remove some stress from your life that you can then allocate to the more important part, school. IMO of course.