Penn Students Taking Questions Forum

[PennBull]

(Continued from Class of 2016 thread)

Do most 1L's end up working in Philly or elsewhere for 1L summer from what you guys have seen? Also, I'm assuming public interest jobs are more difficult to get in NYC (e.g. Manhattan or Bronx DA's office vs. Philly DA's office)?

ETA: Are 1L summer jobs with the USAO Eastern District of Pennsylvania pretty hard to get? And for the difficult to get PI/government jobs, should you mainly focus on grades or should you do a ton of pro-bono/PI stuff 1L year as well?

This is related to the housing talk b/c I'm trying to figure out if I'll be in Philly next summer or not.

From what I can tell, only like a quarter (at the most) of the class is gonna be in Philly this summer. Most people are going to NY, DC, or whatever secondary markets they want to work in permanently. If you want to stay in Philly 1L summer (and aren't really picky about what you want to do), you definitely can (though tbf I think you could say that about any market).

As for getting more difficult things, AFAIK its down to grades and your pre-law school resume. By the time you're doing interviews (January/February), you probably won't have much pro bono/PI stuff to talk about. A decent amount of people don't even do pro bono work 1L year (just because they don't want to get distracted and whatnot).

There's also a quite sizable contingency that takes jobs in random cities they've never been to before. I know for me personally, having lived in one city my entire life, I wanted to expand my market reach for OCI however I could. Was looking at things in Boston, DC, Denver, and Salt Lake City before I fell ass backwards into an awesome job in the DC area.

For 1L, because you'll probably be working for free (plus probably a stipend from Penn), a lot of opportunities in different cities are open to you. Sure, NYC will be tougher than some other cities as far as competition for things like the DA goes, but just work hard during Christmas break getting your ducks in a row and you'll have a good chance at some great gigs.

[shntn]

That's my plan, basically. I want to use 1L summer to spend some time in a market I think I want to target, make some connections and establish a good back story for "Why X?" in OCI interviews, etc.

[JamesDean1955]

(Continued from Class of 2016 thread)

Do most 1L's end up working in Philly or elsewhere for 1L summer from what you guys have seen? Also, I'm assuming public interest jobs are more difficult to get in NYC (e.g. Manhattan or Bronx DA's office vs. Philly DA's office)?

ETA: Are 1L summer jobs with the USAO Eastern District of Pennsylvania pretty hard to get? And for the difficult to get PI/government jobs, should you mainly focus on grades or should you do a ton of pro-bono/PI stuff 1L year as well?

This is related to the housing talk b/c I'm trying to figure out if I'll be in Philly next summer or not.

From what I can tell, only like a quarter (at the most) of the class is gonna be in Philly this summer. Most people are going to NY, DC, or whatever secondary markets they want to work in permanently. If you want to stay in Philly 1L summer (and aren't really picky about what you want to do), you definitely can (though tbf I think you could say that about any market).

As for getting more difficult things, AFAIK its down to grades and your pre-law school resume. By the time you're doing interviews (January/February), you probably won't have much pro bono/PI stuff to talk about. A decent amount of people don't even do pro bono work 1L year (just because they don't want to get distracted and whatnot).

There's also a quite sizable contingency that takes jobs in random cities they've never been to before. I know for me personally, having lived in one city my entire life, I wanted to expand my market reach for OCI however I could. Was looking at things in Boston, DC, Denver, and Salt Lake City before I fell ass backwards into an awesome job in the DC area.

For 1L, because you'll probably be working for free (plus probably a stipend from Penn), a lot of opportunities in different cities are open to you. Sure, NYC will be tougher than some other cities as far as competition for things like the DA goes, but just work hard during Christmas break getting your ducks in a row and you'll have a good chance at some great gigs.

Ideally I'd want to work in a USAO, followed by the DA's office.

Since my resume screams private practice work ( I have x number of years in the financial industry, and x number of years at a private law firm, no volunteer/PI stuff), should I bother doing any pro-bono work first semester 1L to make up for this, or will I be ok as long as I work hard on the resume/cover letter/applications and get decent grades?

In addition to the pro-bono work, would it help to join PI student organizations? I can't imagine these would be much of a time drainer during 1L first semester as you are just starting to get your feet wet.

[SportsFan]

(Continued from Class of 2016 thread)

Do most 1L's end up working in Philly or elsewhere for 1L summer from what you guys have seen? Also, I'm assuming public interest jobs are more difficult to get in NYC (e.g. Manhattan or Bronx DA's office vs. Philly DA's office)?

ETA: Are 1L summer jobs with the USAO Eastern District of Pennsylvania pretty hard to get? And for the difficult to get PI/government jobs, should you mainly focus on grades or should you do a ton of pro-bono/PI stuff 1L year as well?

This is related to the housing talk b/c I'm trying to figure out if I'll be in Philly next summer or not.

From what I can tell, only like a quarter (at the most) of the class is gonna be in Philly this summer. Most people are going to NY, DC, or whatever secondary markets they want to work in permanently. If you want to stay in Philly 1L summer (and aren't really picky about what you want to do), you definitely can (though tbf I think you could say that about any market).

As for getting more difficult things, AFAIK its down to grades and your pre-law school resume. By the time you're doing interviews (January/February), you probably won't have much pro bono/PI stuff to talk about. A decent amount of people don't even do pro bono work 1L year (just because they don't want to get distracted and whatnot).

There's also a quite sizable contingency that takes jobs in random cities they've never been to before. I know for me personally, having lived in one city my entire life, I wanted to expand my market reach for OCI however I could. Was looking at things in Boston, DC, Denver, and Salt Lake City before I fell ass backwards into an awesome job in the DC area.

For 1L, because you'll probably be working for free (plus probably a stipend from Penn), a lot of opportunities in different cities are open to you. Sure, NYC will be tougher than some other cities as far as competition for things like the DA goes, but just work hard during Christmas break getting your ducks in a row and you'll have a good chance at some great gigs.

Ideally I'd want to work in a USAO, followed by the DA's office.

Since my resume screams private practice work ( I have x number of years in the financial industry, and x number of years at a private law firm, no volunteer/PI stuff), should I bother doing any pro-bono work first semester 1L to make up for this, or will I be ok as long as I work hard on the resume/cover letter/applications and get decent grades?

In addition to the pro-bono work, would it help to join PI student organizations? I can't imagine these would be much of a time drainer during 1L first semester as you are just starting to get your feet wet.

I would imagine that doing some 1L pro bono stuff can't hurt (I got pretty involved, and am actually a board member of a pro bono project for next year; PM me if you're curious), but its definitely not gonna be necessary for you to get a USAO or DA office office 1L summer IMO.

[JamesDean1955]

^^ PM'd, thanks

[PennBull]

Organizations at the school run by upperclassmen know exactly what it's like being a 1L, so they don't throw too many responsibilities your way.

[r6_philly]

I would imagine that doing some 1L pro bono stuff can't hurt (I got pretty involved, and am actually a board member of a pro bono project for next year; PM me if you're curious), but its definitely not gonna be necessary for you to get a USAO or DA office office 1L summer IMO.

I agree, USAO and DA offices (well, for 1L summer, pretty much any employer) are not going to care too much about previous experiences -- all WE are good.

As for pro bono, I did almost 80 hours 1L and another 100+ as a 2L, I like the things I did but they have no significant impact on jobs.

[r6_philly]

That's my plan, basically. I want to use 1L summer to spend some time in a market I think I want to target, make some connections and establish a good back story for "Why X?" in OCI interviews, etc.

It's a good idea, but your "why x," to the extent that you need one, will probably need to have more than your summer experience. But you can absolutely have a decent "why x" without having ever been to the place

[PennBull]

As for pro bono, I did almost 80 hours 1L and another 100+ as a 2L, I like the things I did but they have no significant impact on jobs.

Depends on what you're doing and what jobs you're interviewing for. There is no pro bono that would've helped me, but several other people can gain significant benefit from a pro bono in their future job search.

That's my plan, basically. I want to use 1L summer to spend some time in a market I think I want to target, make some connections and establish a good back story for "Why X?" in OCI interviews, etc.

It's a good idea, but your "why x," to the extent that you need one, will probably need to have more than your summer experience. But you can absolutely have a decent "why x" without having ever been to the place

It helps to the extent you can actually learn a thing or two about the city. I almost nailed two offers in Boston while literally never being to the city, and I bet having at least ONE summer there would've gotten me an offer.

[r6_philly]

As for pro bono, I did almost 80 hours 1L and another 100+ as a 2L, I like the things I did but they have no significant impact on jobs.

Depends on what you're doing and what jobs you're interviewing for. There is no pro bono that would've helped me, but several other people can gain significant benefit from a pro bono in their future job search.

You can gain more by doing intern/externships. Many of our pro bono projects are really just legal based community service, I think professional impact is minimal. some externships earn you pro bono hours, and I think that's the best route, you get benefit of both.

It helps to the extent you can actually learn a thing or two about the city. I almost nailed two offers in Boston while literally never being to the city, and I bet having at least ONE summer there would've gotten me an offer.

I nailed offer in Texas without ever been to Texas. So it isn't necessary if you know what to say.

[SportsFan]

Forgot to mention this when I heard it like 2 weeks ago, but the average number of interviews at OCI (according to CP&P) is 15-18. I know theres been debate before over what the average is, so there we go.

[bumblebeetuna]

Hello Penn peeps. While you on the topic of 1L employment, I figured I'd jump in...

So for someone who has paltry WE while also being two years out of undergrad, what do you think are reasonable options for 1L summer? Most of my ties are in Philadelphia, but I'm 95% sure I'd like NY big law as opposed to Philly big law.

Also, I assume the conventional wisdom here is for me to gun the hell out of 1L first semester (and 1L in general) to try to make up for my unimpressive resume. Is this about right?

[OutCold]

Hello Penn peeps. While you on the topic of 1L employment, I figured I'd jump in...

So for someone who has paltry WE while also being two years out of undergrad, what do you think are reasonable options for 1L summer? Most of my ties are in Philadelphia, but I'm 95% sure I'd like NY big law as opposed to Philly big law.

Also, I assume the conventional wisdom here is for me to gun the hell out of 1L first semester (and 1L in general) to try to make up for my unimpressive resume. Is this about right?

Obviously great grades will help. Most of the 1L SA jobs go to top of the class or diversity. Since most of the class is at or around median, I recommend finding obscure places that don't necessarily advertise their summer positions. I worked in Trenton for the NJ government--found it through the agency website. If you are targeting NYC for 2L summer, it doesn't matter where you work, substantively or geographically. NYC doesn't really care about anything at all except your grades at OCI, and then your fit at call backs. As long as you have something interesting to say about it during an interview, you are fine. Use 1L summer to explore something you personally enjoy or are interested in. It will almost always have no effect on your OCI prospects, other than to demonstrate interest in a smaller market, as mentioned above. A judicial clerkship might provide a small boost if you are planning to apply for clerkships later on.

[bumblebeetuna]

Hello Penn peeps. While you on the topic of 1L employment, I figured I'd jump in...

So for someone who has paltry WE while also being two years out of undergrad, what do you think are reasonable options for 1L summer? Most of my ties are in Philadelphia, but I'm 95% sure I'd like NY big law as opposed to Philly big law.

Also, I assume the conventional wisdom here is for me to gun the hell out of 1L first semester (and 1L in general) to try to make up for my unimpressive resume. Is this about right?

Obviously great grades will help. Most of the 1L SA jobs go to top of the class or diversity. Since most of the class is at or around median, I recommend finding obscure places that don't necessarily advertise their summer positions. I worked in Trenton for the NJ government--found it through the agency website. If you are targeting NYC for 2L summer, it doesn't matter where you work, substantively or geographically. NYC doesn't really care about anything at all except your grades at OCI, and then your fit at call backs. As long as you have something interesting to say about it during an interview, you are fine. Use 1L summer to explore something you personally enjoy or are interested in. It will almost always have no effect on your OCI prospects, other than to demonstrate interest in a smaller market, as mentioned above. A judicial clerkship might provide a small boost if you are planning to apply for clerkships later on.

Thank you for your response, very helpful.

[Nelson]

Hello Penn peeps. While you on the topic of 1L employment, I figured I'd jump in...

So for someone who has paltry WE while also being two years out of undergrad, what do you think are reasonable options for 1L summer? Most of my ties are in Philadelphia, but I'm 95% sure I'd like NY big law as opposed to Philly big law.

Also, I assume the conventional wisdom here is for me to gun the hell out of 1L first semester (and 1L in general) to try to make up for my unimpressive resume. Is this about right?

It's not hard at all to get something unpaid for 1L in Philly or NYC, either PI or interning for a judge, and then get money from Penn. 1L SAs are pretty rare, even with excellent first semester grades, unless you're a diversity candidate or going back to Texas.

I have 3 years of uninteresting, non-legal work experience and had no trouble at all getting an 1L legal job in Philly that I'm getting Penn funding for. I doubt it would've been harder to go to NYC instead had I chosen that route. A lot of people choose to stay in Philly for 1L just because it makes life a lot easier not having to sublet. I intend to target NYC firms and from talking to attorneys there, they really don't care what you do 1L summer as long as its something legal.

[JamesDean1955]

^^ Considering $4k probably won't cover all of someones expenses for the entire summer (would it cover them in Philly? I don't think it would in NYC...), what do most students do to make up the shortfall? Personal savings? Stretch their academic loans a bit to cover the summer?

Also, does anyone ever manage to secure additional 1L summer funding from other sources?

ETA: Or do most people find $4k to be enough?

[SaintsTheMetal]

^^ Considering $4k probably won't cover all of someones expenses for the entire summer (would it cover them in Philly? I don't think it would in NYC...), what do most students do to make up the shortfall? Personal savings? Stretch their academic loans a bit to cover the summer?

Also, does anyone ever manage to secure additional 1L summer funding from other sources?

ETA: Or do most people find $4k to be enough?

Is that 4k pre-tax? Or is it like straight checks for 4k? If the former, lol @ living in NYC or any other big city on like 16k salary

[Nelson]

^^ Considering $4k probably won't cover all of someones expenses for the entire summer (would it cover them in Philly? I don't think it would in NYC...), what do most students do to make up the shortfall? Personal savings? Stretch their academic loans a bit to cover the summer?

Also, does anyone ever manage to secure additional 1L summer funding from other sources?

ETA: Or do most people find $4k to be enough?

4k will get me through three months in Philly of rent/food/drinks at the COL here. They do take taxes out of it though. I still have savings that I'm using for COL that will make up the difference. You could reserve a grand or so of loan money from the year if you were concerned. NYC you'd really have to stretch to make it work assuming no savings/SO/parental support.

[SaintsTheMetal]

Any serious lifters around here, ie PL/BB/strongman etc..? Wondering about the Penn gym, if it is a typical "fitness center," or if it has some decent equipment? Some examples just off the top of my head:
reverse hyper?
gluteham raise?
hack squat?
legit bars? (ie not bars with 4-500lb limits or whatever a lot of gyms use)
bands and chains?
will i get bitched at for chalk?
etc...

[sopranorleone]

Any serious lifters around here, ie PL/BB/strongman etc..? Wondering about the Penn gym, if it is a typical "fitness center," or if it has some decent equipment? Some examples just off the top of my head:
reverse hyper?
gluteham raise?
hack squat?
legit bars? (ie not bars with 4-500lb limits or whatever a lot of gyms use)
bands and chains?
will i get bitched at for chalk?
etc...

Powerlifting since I was 14! Hope to see you working out here, brother.

Penn's gym is more than adequate - just don't go when it's crowded. When it's crowded (Weekdays around lunchtime and from 4-6 PM), it's IMPOSSIBLE to superset without someone taking your place. It sucked b/c for 1L year, your class schedule is assigned to you and I wasn't able to work out until the afternoon most days. Weekends are peaceful.

To go down your list:
- Very decent equipment. About 7 benches, 3 squat racks, 2 Olympic lifting platforms
- Yes, legit bars
- Yes to hack squat, reverse hyper, and glute-ham raise
- So many people use bands. Haven't seen anyone use chains, but I can't imagine you couldn't use em
- Chalk is probably OK if you clean it up afterwards

OH, last thing. NOBODY puts their weights back, and it's incredibly irritating b/c there are signs everywhere that say you have to. And be prepared to see a lot of 18 year olds doing stupid shit.

There's also a second fitness center here, but it's smaller and I don't use it.

Edit: locker rooms are pretty good too, but the lockers are sort of expensive. And on that note, the gym membership fee isn't included in the tuition for grad students, so that's like an extra $500

[dsn32]

Any serious lifters around here, ie PL/BB/strongman etc..? Wondering about the Penn gym, if it is a typical "fitness center," or if it has some decent equipment? Some examples just off the top of my head:
reverse hyper?
gluteham raise?
hack squat?
legit bars? (ie not bars with 4-500lb limits or whatever a lot of gyms use)
bands and chains?
will i get bitched at for chalk?
etc...

Powerlifting since I was 14! Hope to see you working out here, brother.

Penn's gym is more than adequate - just don't go when it's crowded. When it's crowded (Weekdays around lunchtime and from 4-6 PM), it's IMPOSSIBLE to superset without someone taking your place. It sucked b/c for 1L year, your class schedule is assigned to you and I wasn't able to work out until the afternoon most days. Weekends are peaceful.

To go down your list:
- Very decent equipment. About 7 benches, 3 squat racks, 2 Olympic lifting platforms
- Yes, legit bars
- Yes to hack squat, reverse hyper, and glute-ham raise
- So many people use bands. Haven't seen anyone use chains, but I can't imagine you couldn't use em
- Chalk is probably OK if you clean it up afterwards

OH, last thing. NOBODY puts their weights back, and it's incredibly irritating b/c there are signs everywhere that say you have to. And be prepared to see a lot of 18 year olds doing stupid shit.

There's also a second fitness center here, but it's smaller and I don't use it.

Edit: locker rooms are pretty good too, but the lockers are sort of expensive. And on that note, the gym membership fee isn't included in the tuition for grad students, so that's like an extra $500

Talked to them on my visit last week. Its $315 for the calendar year. Catch is, you can't start it until September 1st because they do some goofy academic year thing. So working out in August is gonna be a challenge if you're attending.

[sopranorleone]

Any serious lifters around here, ie PL/BB/strongman etc..? Wondering about the Penn gym, if it is a typical "fitness center," or if it has some decent equipment? Some examples just off the top of my head:
reverse hyper?
gluteham raise?
hack squat?
legit bars? (ie not bars with 4-500lb limits or whatever a lot of gyms use)
bands and chains?
will i get bitched at for chalk?
etc...

Powerlifting since I was 14! Hope to see you working out here, brother.

Penn's gym is more than adequate - just don't go when it's crowded. When it's crowded (Weekdays around lunchtime and from 4-6 PM), it's IMPOSSIBLE to superset without someone taking your place. It sucked b/c for 1L year, your class schedule is assigned to you and I wasn't able to work out until the afternoon most days. Weekends are peaceful.

To go down your list:
- Very decent equipment. About 7 benches, 3 squat racks, 2 Olympic lifting platforms
- Yes, legit bars
- Yes to hack squat, reverse hyper, and glute-ham raise
- So many people use bands. Haven't seen anyone use chains, but I can't imagine you couldn't use em
- Chalk is probably OK if you clean it up afterwards

OH, last thing. NOBODY puts their weights back, and it's incredibly irritating b/c there are signs everywhere that say you have to. And be prepared to see a lot of 18 year olds doing stupid shit.

There's also a second fitness center here, but it's smaller and I don't use it.

Edit: locker rooms are pretty good too, but the lockers are sort of expensive. And on that note, the gym membership fee isn't included in the tuition for grad students, so that's like an extra $500

Talked to them on my visit last week. Its $315 for the calendar year. Catch is, you can't start it until September 1st because they do some goofy academic year thing. So working out in August is gonna be a challenge if you're attending.

I think for August they charge you like $50-75 extra no matter if you start the last day of August or August 1st. So an early move-in will give you more bang for the buck

[SaintsTheMetal]

Any serious lifters around here, ie PL/BB/strongman etc..? Wondering about the Penn gym, if it is a typical "fitness center," or if it has some decent equipment? Some examples just off the top of my head:
reverse hyper?
gluteham raise?
hack squat?
legit bars? (ie not bars with 4-500lb limits or whatever a lot of gyms use)
bands and chains?
will i get bitched at for chalk?
etc...

Powerlifting since I was 14! Hope to see you working out here, brother.

Penn's gym is more than adequate - just don't go when it's crowded. When it's crowded (Weekdays around lunchtime and from 4-6 PM), it's IMPOSSIBLE to superset without someone taking your place. It sucked b/c for 1L year, your class schedule is assigned to you and I wasn't able to work out until the afternoon most days. Weekends are peaceful.

To go down your list:
- Very decent equipment. About 7 benches, 3 squat racks, 2 Olympic lifting platforms
- Yes, legit bars
- Yes to hack squat, reverse hyper, and glute-ham raise
- So many people use bands. Haven't seen anyone use chains, but I can't imagine you couldn't use em
- Chalk is probably OK if you clean it up afterwards

OH, last thing. NOBODY puts their weights back, and it's incredibly irritating b/c there are signs everywhere that say you have to. And be prepared to see a lot of 18 year olds doing stupid shit.

There's also a second fitness center here, but it's smaller and I don't use it.

Edit: locker rooms are pretty good too, but the lockers are sort of expensive. And on that note, the gym membership fee isn't included in the tuition for grad students, so that's like an extra $500

awesome, thanks! sounds very good compared to most college gyms.

$35/mo. or whatever isn't bad for a decent gym in a good location. will definitely see you there! although I'm more on the BB side now, changing mentality after lifting Westside for the last 4 years

[bumblebeetuna]

Hello Penn peeps. While you on the topic of 1L employment, I figured I'd jump in...

So for someone who has paltry WE while also being two years out of undergrad, what do you think are reasonable options for 1L summer? Most of my ties are in Philadelphia, but I'm 95% sure I'd like NY big law as opposed to Philly big law.

Also, I assume the conventional wisdom here is for me to gun the hell out of 1L first semester (and 1L in general) to try to make up for my unimpressive resume. Is this about right?

It's not hard at all to get something unpaid for 1L in Philly or NYC, either PI or interning for a judge, and then get money from Penn. 1L SAs are pretty rare, even with excellent first semester grades, unless you're a diversity candidate or going back to Texas.

I have 3 years of uninteresting, non-legal work experience and had no trouble at all getting an 1L legal job in Philly that I'm getting Penn funding for. I doubt it would've been harder to go to NYC instead had I chosen that route. A lot of people choose to stay in Philly for 1L just because it makes life a lot easier not having to sublet. I intend to target NYC firms and from talking to attorneys there, they really don't care what you do 1L summer as long as its something legal.

Excellent. I'll be living with my wife and I'd rather not uproot to NYC for the summer earning zero dollars. So being able to stay in Philly for 1L summer and not be penalized by NYC firms is awesome.

[PennBull]

Hello Penn peeps. While you on the topic of 1L employment, I figured I'd jump in...

So for someone who has paltry WE while also being two years out of undergrad, what do you think are reasonable options for 1L summer? Most of my ties are in Philadelphia, but I'm 95% sure I'd like NY big law as opposed to Philly big law.

Also, I assume the conventional wisdom here is for me to gun the hell out of 1L first semester (and 1L in general) to try to make up for my unimpressive resume. Is this about right?

It's not hard at all to get something unpaid for 1L in Philly or NYC, either PI or interning for a judge, and then get money from Penn. 1L SAs are pretty rare, even with excellent first semester grades, unless you're a diversity candidate or going back to Texas.

I have 3 years of uninteresting, non-legal work experience and had no trouble at all getting an 1L legal job in Philly that I'm getting Penn funding for. I doubt it would've been harder to go to NYC instead had I chosen that route. A lot of people choose to stay in Philly for 1L just because it makes life a lot easier not having to sublet. I intend to target NYC firms and from talking to attorneys there, they really don't care what you do 1L summer as long as its something legal.

Excellent. I'll be living with my wife and I'd rather not uproot to NYC for the summer earning zero dollars. So being able to stay in Philly for 1L summer and not be penalized by NYC firms is awesome.

Yeah I had literally been to NYC once in my life before OCI and it was absolutely zero issue.