UVA Law Students Taking Questions Forum

[pjo]

. . . Sorry for the long post, but I thought this might help someone out, or at least point out that half of TLS reads something in one post and automatically accepts it as true, then they go and post it in another post, which leads to a lot of ppl posting stuff they really don’t know much of anything about. I’m not calling anyone out or anything, I’m just saying.

There is probably a bit of exaggeration around here, but I think it's pretty natural to equate striking out on firm/clerkship/government/PI with unemployment. The result is, 200K in debt and a shitty, unenjoyable, low-paying job with less upside than they likely would have had if they had not gone to law school. 99% of people in law school are looking to get a good job they can be happy with, or at least one that pays a ton. Not getting either would mean, for most people, that law school was a failure.

Yeah I guess it just depends on expectations. If you go in expecting one of those jobs and don't get it then I could see that being devastating to someone. Still though, using what you said, I know ppl doing doc review and for the most part like what they do. Same with ppl doing personal injury or shitlaw type of stuff. As for the loans, I'd be happy to break down the figures of paying off 200k on 50k/yr salary, rphilly already referenced how IBR would kick in earlier in this thread. Keep in mind that most ppl on TLS are extremely risk averse (from what it seems). When I told my dad (a business owner) about my loan figures he really didn’t think too much of it. He had twice the amount of loans I’ll be taking out after 5 years of being in his business (he was 26 at the time) and he was still able to raise a family and live fine. It’s a risk, but I think of it as a calculated risk. TBH, I know a fair amount of successful business owners. Those that have been the most successful were in the most debt at one time or another. An interesting book that actually references what I am saying is Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki FWIW. Like I said, making 40-50k/yr entry isn’t preferable, but it’s doable.

FWIW some other things I have witnessed that might make ppl on TLS heads explode: -PPL doing doc review that for the most part enjoy what they do. –PPL moving up from doc review to associate in a Biglaw firm. –Associates at a Biglaw firm that leave the office mostly everyday at 5:00 (granted the guy starts at like 6am, but still).

[arism87]

What do you mean, what makes someone suitable for biglaw?

(Because I'm not sure I am, so maybe someone else should decide for me, lol)

Personality and disposition mostly. I think when you go for your career counseling session they will point you in the right direction. I have seen a lot of people in corporate environment, and some are just much more suited for that environment than others. People may have the smarts and grades, but if they don't really play the part they are more likely to strike out.

Gotcha.. hmm. I look forward to speaking with career services one on one. Should be interesting.

[paulinaporizkova]

What do you mean, what makes someone suitable for biglaw?

(Because I'm not sure I am, so maybe someone else should decide for me, lol)

Personality and disposition mostly. I think when you go for your career counseling session they will point you in the right direction. I have seen a lot of people in corporate environment, and some are just much more suited for that environment than others. People may have the smarts and grades, but if they don't really play the part they are more likely to strike out.

Gotcha.. hmm. I look forward to speaking with career services one on one. Should be interesting.

so basically they're just gonna be judging the shit out of us the whole time

[arism87]

What do you mean, what makes someone suitable for biglaw?

(Because I'm not sure I am, so maybe someone else should decide for me, lol)

Personality and disposition mostly. I think when you go for your career counseling session they will point you in the right direction. I have seen a lot of people in corporate environment, and some are just much more suited for that environment than others. People may have the smarts and grades, but if they don't really play the part they are more likely to strike out.

Gotcha.. hmm. I look forward to speaking with career services one on one. Should be interesting.

so basically they're just gonna be judging the shit out of us the whole time

I'm just hoping they're good at it..

[paulinaporizkova]

I'm just hoping they're good at it..

[r6_philly]

Gotcha.. hmm. I look forward to speaking with career services one on one. Should be interesting.

You know he mentioned that they are starting to use behavioral questioning in interviews? Well I have been doing that on both ends for 10+ years. It really isn't intuitive and it's even very hard to train for it.

The last 2 interviews I was on I got opposite questions ( I got no questions about my resume)

- Tell us about a project that you absolutely failed on?

- Tell us about the best professional achievement, and why were you able to succeed?

Some people are going to fare much better than others at interviews - not because of skills, but the kind of "qualities" that employers want.

[Brock2010]

Lol ok well how well do you have to do to get biglaw?/ How much time do you study in a week?

clearly you haven't spent much time on TLS

What is this supposed to me?

people will say that no amount of excess studying will separate you from your peers grade-wise. you either have it or you don't, which is not how it is, say, with undergrad where you can study a shitload and probably get A's, or at least be more likely to get A's. in LS everything is curved so you might study your ass off and still get a B- (in fact, many do)

That's not very comforting. Although I've taken a look at some law school exams and I can see that.

[joemoviebuff]

Gotcha.. hmm. I look forward to speaking with career services one on one. Should be interesting.

You know he mentioned that they are starting to use behavioral questioning in interviews? Well I have been doing that on both ends for 10+ years. It really isn't intuitive and it's even very hard to train for it.

The last 2 interviews I was on I got opposite questions ( I got no questions about my resume)

- Tell us about a project that you absolutely failed on?

- Tell us about the best professional achievement, and why were you able to succeed?

Some people are going to fare much better than others at interviews - not because of skills, but the kind of "qualities" that employers want.

I'm just curious, how did you answer?

[r6_philly]

Gotcha.. hmm. I look forward to speaking with career services one on one. Should be interesting.

You know he mentioned that they are starting to use behavioral questioning in interviews? Well I have been doing that on both ends for 10+ years. It really isn't intuitive and it's even very hard to train for it.

The last 2 interviews I was on I got opposite questions ( I got no questions about my resume)

- Tell us about a project that you absolutely failed on?

- Tell us about the best professional achievement, and why were you able to succeed?

Some people are going to fare much better than others at interviews - not because of skills, but the kind of "qualities" that employers want.

I'm just curious, how did you answer?

Failure: I told them of a successful project I led but it fell short of my expectations. Explained that I was limited by business constrains.

Success: I told them of a project that I failed initially but kept trying until it worked. Explained that I finally was able to connect technical limitations with business requirements.

[suspicious android]

I'm thinking about trying to reserve a 1-bedroom at Ivy Gardens, even though I'm not set on attending yet. If I send in the application fee and $20 how much time until I'd have to put down a deposit?

Are 1-bedrooms less popular/more popular, harder or easier to find?

[vanwinkle]

I'm thinking about trying to reserve a 1-bedroom at Ivy Gardens, even though I'm not set on attending yet. If I send in the application fee and $20 how much time until I'd have to put down a deposit?

Are 1-bedrooms less popular/more popular, harder or easier to find?

Because of the stupid way Ivy Gardens handles leasing, you have to submit both a $20 app fee and your deposit with your application. Once they've processed your app (typically 2-3 days), they'll offer you an available room/start date closest to what you requested. You have some short amount of time (a week at most I think, maybe less) to accept or decline. If you decline, they refund your deposit but not your app fee.

Oh, and submitting an app/deposit does NOT hold a unit for you, either. This is the dumbest part. They may tell you they have the unit you want (say a 1BR/1BA) with a move-in date near what you want (July 28 for example, which isn't too early). Then they'll say "we don't hold units for people but if you submit an app fee and deposit we'll offer it to you if it's still available." Then you put your money down, wait a couple days... And get offered a unit starting June 15 because the one you wanted got rented and this is the latest move-in date they still have left.

If you ask for a later move-in date they'll tell you, "What you can do is rent it starting June 15 and just mail your rent payments from where you are, and that'll hold it until you're ready to move in."

I hate Ivy Gardens. I don't even live there anymore and I still hate them.

[omg]

Gotcha.. hmm. I look forward to speaking with career services one on one. Should be interesting.

You know he mentioned that they are starting to use behavioral questioning in interviews? Well I have been doing that on both ends for 10+ years. It really isn't intuitive and it's even very hard to train for it.

The last 2 interviews I was on I got opposite questions ( I got no questions about my resume)

- Tell us about a project that you absolutely failed on?

- Tell us about the best professional achievement, and why were you able to succeed?

Some people are going to fare much better than others at interviews - not because of skills, but the kind of "qualities" that employers want.

FWIW, I did not get asked a single "behavioral" question at UVA OGI this year (besides strengths and weaknesses, but those are just such standard interview questions)--despite preparing for them like CS recommended.

[r6_philly]

FWIW, I did not get asked a single "behavioral" question at UVA OGI this year (besides strengths and weaknesses, but those are just such standard interview questions)--despite preparing for them like CS recommended.

Buzzkill!

I like behavior based interviews, it's easier to stand out like a winner. I think people with WE are generally at an advantage. Maybe more firms will catch up in the next 2 years?

[Kohinoor]

Gotcha.. hmm. I look forward to speaking with career services one on one. Should be interesting.

You know he mentioned that they are starting to use behavioral questioning in interviews? Well I have been doing that on both ends for 10+ years. It really isn't intuitive and it's even very hard to train for it.

The last 2 interviews I was on I got opposite questions ( I got no questions about my resume)

- Tell us about a project that you absolutely failed on?

- Tell us about the best professional achievement, and why were you able to succeed?

Some people are going to fare much better than others at interviews - not because of skills, but the kind of "qualities" that employers want.

FWIW, I did not get asked a single "behavioral" question at UVA OGI this year (besides strengths and weaknesses, but those are just such standard interview questions)--despite preparing for them like CS recommended.

Yeah, behavioral questions were very rare in my experience as well.

[RVP11]

FWIW, I did not get asked a single "behavioral" question at UVA OGI this year (besides strengths and weaknesses, but those are just such standard interview questions)--despite preparing for them like CS recommended.

Buzzkill!

I like behavior based interviews, it's easier to stand out like a winner. I think people with WE are generally at an advantage. Maybe more firms will catch up in the next 2 years?

Behavioral interviewing is bullshit, and geared toward testing how well you interview, not how well you'll actually do on the job or how easy you are to work with. Firms don't want good interviewers, they want good people for the job.

Firms have realized the best you're going to get out of a 20-30 minute interview is the answer to "how much do I like this person?" (total gut reaction). Don't expect this to change.

[r6_philly]

Behavioral interviewing is bullshit, and geared toward testing how well you interview, not how well you'll actually do on the job or how easy you are to work with. Firms don't want good interviewers, they want good people for the job.

Firms have realized the best you're going to get out of a 20-30 minute interview is the answer to "how much do I like this person?" (total gut reaction). Don't expect this to change.

This is not how your CS is selling it. And also, behavioral interview does tell how someone would fit in the the environment. Qualification and skills are screened using resume and first round, fit and interpersonal qualities are usually screened in the later rounds.

[RVP11]

Behavioral interviewing is bullshit, and geared toward testing how well you interview, not how well you'll actually do on the job or how easy you are to work with. Firms don't want good interviewers, they want good people for the job.

Firms have realized the best you're going to get out of a 20-30 minute interview is the answer to "how much do I like this person?" (total gut reaction). Don't expect this to change.

This is not how your CS is selling it. And also, behavioral interview does tell how someone would fit in the the environment.

Then career services isn't "selling it" correctly. Almost 100% of law firm interviews will be a lot more like casual conversations than formal interviews. If you feel like it's a very formal occasion then you're doing it wrong.

Another reason most interviewers don't ask behavioral questions is because, as lawyers, they don't like it. They're not HR people and I think they feel phony asking corny questions. I even had one partner apologize to me for asking the one behavioral question I fielded all interviewing season and explain that HR required it.

Qualification and skills are screened using resume and first round, fit and interpersonal qualities are usually screened in the later rounds.

That's not how it is with law firms. It's a personality and fit assessment the whole way through. A callback is essentially just a series of screening interviews.

[Kohinoor]

Behavioral interviewing is bullshit, and geared toward testing how well you interview, not how well you'll actually do on the job or how easy you are to work with. Firms don't want good interviewers, they want good people for the job.

Firms have realized the best you're going to get out of a 20-30 minute interview is the answer to "how much do I like this person?" (total gut reaction). Don't expect this to change.

This is not how your CS is selling it. And also, behavioral interview does tell how someone would fit in the the environment.

Then career services isn't "selling it" correctly. Almost 100% of law firm interviews will be a lot more like casual conversations than formal interviews. If you feel like it's a very formal occasion then you're doing it wrong.

Another reason most interviewers don't ask behavioral questions is because, as lawyers, they don't like it. They're not HR people and I think they feel phony asking corny questions. I even had one partner apologize to me for asking the one behavioral question I fielded all interviewing season and explain that HR required it.

Qualification and skills are screened using resume and first round, fit and interpersonal qualities are usually screened in the later rounds.

That's not how it is with law firms. It's a personality and fit assessment the whole way through. A callback is essentially just a series of screening interviews.

agree

[r6_philly]

Then career services isn't "selling it" correctly. Almost 100% of law firm interviews will be a lot more like casual conversations than formal interviews. If you feel like it's a very formal occasion then you're doing it wrong.

All the interviews I have been to in the last decade or so have been casual conversations, the topics used are just behavioral questions. They even frame it in asking about your past experiences.

I think you may have misunderstood behavioral questions as purely a format of the interview. It is about the topics, not the format. I have never been asked by someone based on a list of questions, nothing rigid like that. They simply dictate where they want to go with our casual conversation.

HR people tend to ask formatted questions, but they usually only do phone screenings and first round screenings.

This is all corporate hiring obviously, since I have never been on a legal interview.

[vamedic03]

Then career services isn't "selling it" correctly. Almost 100% of law firm interviews will be a lot more like casual conversations than formal interviews. If you feel like it's a very formal occasion then you're doing it wrong.

All the interviews I have been to in the last decade or so have been casual conversations, the topics used are just behavioral questions. They even frame it in asking about your past experiences.

I think you may have misunderstood behavioral questions as purely a format of the interview. It is about the topics, not the format. I have never been asked by someone based on a list of questions, nothing rigid like that. They simply dictate where they want to go with our casual conversation.

HR people tend to ask formatted questions, but they usually only do phone screenings and first round screenings.

This is all corporate hiring obviously, since I have never been on a legal interview.

I'm going to agree with RVP11 here - having been through numerous behavioral and panel interviews (I worked full time for 6 years prior to law school) and having been through OGI and callbacks - law firms do not use behavior interview questions (I can think of only 1 exception).

[grash]

On a slightly different note: journal personal statements, yea or nay? I'm slightly regretful of the amount of time I sunk into the writing part of journal tryouts given how little most of the journals weigh that section, and if the journals place a similar emphasis on personal statements I'm going to forgo them entirely. More specifically, does anyone have any input on Law and Business, or Law and Social Policy?

[RVP11]

On a slightly different note: journal personal statements, yea or nay? I'm slightly regretful of the amount of time I sunk into the writing part of journal tryouts given how little most of the journals weigh that section, and if the journals place a similar emphasis on personal statements I'm going to forgo them entirely. More specifically, does anyone have any input on Law and Business, or Law and Social Policy?

Generally, a waste of time/the paper you print it on.

[showNprove]

I had only two behavioral questions throughout all of my interviews--one during OGI and one during a callback.

[suspicious android]

I had only two behavioral questions throughout all of my interviews--one during OGI and one during a callback.

Thank God to hear that the rumors of this bullshit seem to be exagerated. HR bullshit needs to die.

[r6_philly]

I had only two behavioral questions throughout all of my interviews--one during OGI and one during a callback.

Thank God to hear that the rumors of this bullshit seem to be exagerated. HR bullshit needs to die.

http://www.lawjobs.com/newsandviews/Law ... hbxlogin=1