Columbia students taking questions Forum

[dabigchina]

I noted that Columbia has a moot court requirement for 1L. Is it graded? How intense is it? I'm not really interested in litigation and I'm not the slickest public speaker (i'm not horrible, but I wouldn't stake my 1L grades on them) so this is kind of turning me off from CLS.

[txdude45]

I noted that Columbia has a moot court requirement for 1L. Is it graded? How intense is it? I'm not really interested in litigation and I'm not the slickest public speaker (i'm not horrible, but I wouldn't stake my 1L grades on them) so this is kind of turning me off from CLS.

Its part of the LPW class, which isn't graded; you just have to complete it. As far as the difficulty of the moot itself, it's a very casual thing if you want it to be.

[dabigchina]

I noted that Columbia has a moot court requirement for 1L. Is it graded? How intense is it? I'm not really interested in litigation and I'm not the slickest public speaker (i'm not horrible, but I wouldn't stake my 1L grades on them) so this is kind of turning me off from CLS.

Its part of the LPW class, which isn't graded; you just have to complete it. As far as the difficulty of the moot itself, it's a very casual thing if you want it to be.

nice so it's ungraded. that makes me feel much better.

[Nebby]

Anyone have a gym they recommend that isn't Dodge?

[iamgeorgebush]

I noted that Columbia has a moot court requirement for 1L. Is it graded? How intense is it? I'm not really interested in litigation and I'm not the slickest public speaker (i'm not horrible, but I wouldn't stake my 1L grades on them) so this is kind of turning me off from CLS.

Its part of the LPW class, which isn't graded; you just have to complete it. As far as the difficulty of the moot itself, it's a very casual thing if you want it to be.

nice so it's ungraded. that makes me feel much better.

technically, LPW is High Pass - Pass - Low Pass - Fail. but yeah, i've never heard of employers caring about whether you get a HP or P, and i've never heard of anyone getting a LP or F (although i guess you wouldn't tell anyone if you got a LP or F). my guess is that you get a P as long as you write the thing and it's coherent.

as for moot court, you have to research and write one part of an appellate brief in the second semester 1L, the argument being 8-15 pages. there are some other requirements like a statement of facts, authority table, etc. you could spend a lot of time on the brief, or you could do the bare minimum. it's really what you make of it. some of the instructors are more demanding, but my impression is that most are pretty chill. then there are oral arguments later in the semester. can't say how much prep that is, since we haven't gotten there yet. overall, i doubt moot court is much more work than second semester legal research and writing classes at other schools.

[Lawschoolbound316]

For those who deferred/took time off before law school - are you happy with your decision? And for those of you who went straight through - do you wish you had taken time off? I have the option to defer for two years to do investment banking with a big bank (JP/Goldman/BAML) but I don't want to go into corporate law (rather do litigation) but I'm not sure if the resume boost will be useful during OCI regardless. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

[TheoO]

I'm pretty sure that that kind of work experience would be a resume boost in any circumstance if you're going to a firm. Plus, I'd say do it just because it will allow you a couple of years of savings. I don't know your exact circumstances, but I would defer if I were you, if just so you can save money and minimize debt. Also, you may actually like that and decide to skip out on law school.

[toothbrush]

For those who deferred/took time off before law school - are you happy with your decision? And for those of you who went straight through - do you wish you had taken time off? I have the option to defer for two years to do investment banking with a big bank (JP/Goldman/BAML) but I don't want to go into corporate law (rather do litigation) but I'm not sure if the resume boost will be useful during OCI regardless. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

There are basically two camps on this topic represented on TLS. On the one hand, you have those who implore people to take time off before law school. This has the benefits of making money, experiencing the real world, not being in school, not being in law schools, building your resume, defining your interests, etc. The other camp are those who defend k-jd status. Those people argue that if you know you want law, there is little reason to wait. They say that OCI doesn't require WE, you may be competitive at classes because you're used to the grind, etc.

Personally I don't advise on this much but in my experience I am both happy/sad that I went straight through, but for none of the typical reasons. The t14 is skewed toward an older class size imo so the average student is ~25 coming in. As a k-jd you may be 21-23 and there is some social effect. However, I am thankful that I will graduate at a relatively young age and be a bit ahead of the curve comparatively.

As for your decision, do what makes sense for you! If you feel that you want to save some money (you probably need to) then you should absolutely work. While the IB job may not directly benefit you in your future job placement, the experience and confidence you will gain will show and help you in OCI imo.

Feel free to pm for an elaboration of any of the above.

[TheoO]

75% of the entering class at CLS was between 21-24. It's a very young class.

[toothbrush]

75% of the entering class at CLS was between 21-24. It's a very young class.

Good call. My 1L wasn't here, tho. Rest of my post stands.

[Tiago Splitter]

IB definitely will help even if you gun for lit. I don't see anything wrong with either going straight through or waiting. I certainly wish I had gotten this all out of the way sooner but I didn't start until I was 28 so there's probably a middle ground in there.

[TheoO]

I mean, I do kind of envy students who are in their early 20s and will be associates in their mid to late-20s. I won't be working till 30. But if the OP is a K-JD, working for a few years and then going won't be that much of an issue. Also, it's just good to have a different experience.

[MCFC]

For those who deferred/took time off before law school - are you happy with your decision? And for those of you who went straight through - do you wish you had taken time off? I have the option to defer for two years to do investment banking with a big bank (JP/Goldman/BAML) but I don't want to go into corporate law (rather do litigation) but I'm not sure if the resume boost will be useful during OCI regardless. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

I came straight through and I really regret it. I had Career Services tell me (so obviously can't take it as gospel) that a few employers that I otherwise would have been a solid candidate for grades wise were more than likely out because of my lack of work experience.

It's possible--or even likely--that that was overly cautious advice, but I definitely wish I'd more seriously considered deferring.

[moonman157]

K-JD and I go back and forth, but mostly feel like going straight through is a regret I have. It all depends on your individual circumstances though. I don't think it had a negative impact on EIP (A ton of people at some of the best firms went straight through, while some people with work experience really struggled/struck out) but more for personal reasons.

[MCFC]

Yeah I tried rewriting my post like three times because I really really don't want overstate the EIP implications of going straight through. If you do, it's not like you're closing any doors to yourself. All else equal though I would have definitely preferred to have the work experience.

[starrydreamz3]

For those who deferred/took time off before law school - are you happy with your decision? And for those of you who went straight through - do you wish you had taken time off? I have the option to defer for two years to do investment banking with a big bank (JP/Goldman/BAML) but I don't want to go into corporate law (rather do litigation) but I'm not sure if the resume boost will be useful during OCI regardless. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

I did my two years at Goldman before coming to CLS (deferred acceptance). The name opens tons of doors, and will make you much more attractive come EIP. Pair that with good grades and I guarantee you will have offers from top firms before even entering EIP. (I had 3 V5 offers before EIP).

Not to mention you'll have a good chunk of change to put a dent in your student loan debt. Really the hardest decision to make will be in May two years from now when you're asking yourself if you really want to leave finance to restart your career in law.

PM me if you want to know more details/discuss more.

[jbagelboy]

For those who deferred/took time off before law school - are you happy with your decision? And for those of you who went straight through - do you wish you had taken time off? I have the option to defer for two years to do investment banking with a big bank (JP/Goldman/BAML) but I don't want to go into corporate law (rather do litigation) but I'm not sure if the resume boost will be useful during OCI regardless. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

I did my two years at Goldman before coming to CLS (deferred acceptance). The name opens tons of doors, and will make you much more attractive come EIP. Pair that with good grades and I guarantee you will have offers from top firms before even entering EIP. (I had 3 V5 offers before EIP).

Not to mention you'll have a good chunk of change to put a dent in your student loan debt. Really the hardest decision to make will be in May two years from now when you're asking yourself if you really want to leave finance to restart your career in law.

PM me if you want to know more details/discuss more.

just wanted to pipe in here and say, don't feel like you have to work at GS or BCG for your experiences to be valuable as a law student. obviously these jobs are incredibly difficult to get. in certain quarters, like with elite wall street firms, of course analyst roles serve as impressive signaling (I was also a consultant), but there are lots of ways to develop maturity, valuable experiences, and have fun before going back to school.

[tlsapp2017]

For those who deferred/took time off before law school - are you happy with your decision? And for those of you who went straight through - do you wish you had taken time off? I have the option to defer for two years to do investment banking with a big bank (JP/Goldman/BAML) but I don't want to go into corporate law (rather do litigation) but I'm not sure if the resume boost will be useful during OCI regardless. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

If you're excited about the opportunity to work for the bank, definitely do it. If not and your just interested to kill time/boost your resume, I wouldn't bother.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

The only rational, properly balanced reasons not to go to (a financially prudent) law school as soon as you can are (1) you're not sure if you want to go, or (2) you can improve your school/scholarship with a better LSAT.

People who are putting it off to go do blah blah blah are leaving literally hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table. A cursory glance at TLS should give you an idea of what an albatross a negative net worth in your thirties is to someone who wants to have a nice wedding, or have kids, or buy a house. I've never heard a worthwhile justification for costing yourself an opportunity to maximize your earning potential ASAP, with the exception of people who are already making a decent amount of money.

[jbagelboy]

The only rational, properly balanced reasons not to go to (a financially prudent) law school as soon as you can are (1) you're not sure if you want to go, or (2) you can improve your school/scholarship with a better LSAT.

People who are putting it off to go do blah blah blah are leaving literally hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table. A cursory glance at TLS should give you an idea of what an albatross a negative net worth in your thirties is to someone who wants to have a nice wedding, or have kids, or buy a house. I've never heard a worthwhile justification for costing yourself an opportunity to maximize your earning potential ASAP, with the exception of people who are already making a decent amount of money.

life isn't just about maximizing EV

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

The only rational, properly balanced reasons not to go to (a financially prudent) law school as soon as you can are (1) you're not sure if you want to go, or (2) you can improve your school/scholarship with a better LSAT.

People who are putting it off to go do blah blah blah are leaving literally hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table. A cursory glance at TLS should give you an idea of what an albatross a negative net worth in your thirties is to someone who wants to have a nice wedding, or have kids, or buy a house. I've never heard a worthwhile justification for costing yourself an opportunity to maximize your earning potential ASAP, with the exception of people who are already making a decent amount of money.

life isn't just about maximizing EV

Leisure is a priority reserved for those with a positive net worth, and preferably compounding returns.

Here's some practical advice for 0Ls: It's understated on TLS how staggeringly little 2L and 3L matter at all. So if you wanted to take time off before law school to go do dickety-fuck, do it during 2L and 3L instead and start building the nest egg your Millenial neighbors will never have. Acceptable exception: doing something for your conscience (Peace Corps etc.) so you can tell yourself you made a positive difference in the mirror every morning, because you will actively make the world a worse place for the ensuing three to five years.

[utahraptor]

eh

I had a heck of a lot of fun on the cheap before law school. Maybe I'd be more WILD AND CRAZY if I were younger, but I definitely had some experiences that I value and wouldn't trade.

I also figure that there's no point in rushing into a career that will probably shorten your lifespan/deteriorate your health. I got to enjoy life for a while when I was young, stupid and free. I still get to enjoy life as a lazy 3L.

I'm not going to have that leisure moving forward.

[jrc223]

I think I read somewhere that Columbia usually matches scholarship offers made by peer schools; is this true, and what schools does it consider to be its peers?

Also in this vein, what do you think is an acceptable amount of debt to incur in order to attend Columbia (assuming one is not independently wealthy)? I know many of you have been outspoken about how expensive it is, and I'm curious to know what amount of debt you believe is defensible in exchange for a greater shot at biglaw

[TheoO]

The debt question is highly subjective. Each person is probably going to tell you the amount they actually took on. It also depends on your other offers.

[jbagelboy]

I think I read somewhere that Columbia usually matches scholarship offers made by peer schools; is this true, and what schools does it consider to be its peers?

Also in this vein, what do you think is an acceptable amount of debt to incur in order to attend Columbia (assuming one is not independently wealthy)? I know many of you have been outspoken about how expensive it is, and I'm curious to know what amount of debt you believe is defensible in exchange for a greater shot at biglaw

They will consider offers from schools like Harvard (need based), Chicago, NYU, and UPenn as peer offers, but they might not "match" in an exact sense. Lower than that, they might look at it but it won't be all that persuasive. I "negotiated" by providing Chicago and NYU scholarships and got somewhere, but they wouldn't budge for even higher offers from Duke, Michigan, Berkeley ect.

My latest thought is that I would only take on the amount of debt equal or lesser to my all-in starting compensation at graduation (which for c/o 2018 could be anywhere b/t $175-205k, but say $175k to be conservative). There's something comforting about that to me in the abstract even though it bears little relevance for repayment schedules. But my view on this isn't consistent.