GULC Students Taking Questions Forum

[missie]

Hi guys, I'm looking for some advice on double-depositing to help with negotiations at Georgetown. I don't have much leverage other than a near full scholly at Fordham - I'm wondering if depositing there will help at all. Any advice?

i double deposited and continued to negotiate but i had stronger offers than fordham

Okay thanks!

[gazorpazorp]

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[TLSModBot]

Any insight into why GULC's federal clerkship % is consistently low?

Because there are 13 better schools than GULC? Georgetown also does kind of hamfisted job of getting/encouraging people who have the grades/writing for clerkships to seriously consider them - you get people coming in who want it from the start and only a subset of them will have the grades or writing ability to make it.

[Glasseyes]

Any insight into why GULC's federal clerkship % is consistently low?

Also, is it any easier to get FedGov -- or something like the DC Defender's Office, Congressional Legislative Counsel, etc. -- coming out of GULC than it would be coming out of a lower-T14 peer (think Mich), due to proximity and/or networking opportunities?

For the first question: I can't offer any real insight cuz I'm not a clerkship contender, but I wonder if the percentage is particularly low just due to our excessively massive class size. If we somehow jumped up to a 10% clerkship rate, that would be 68 federal clerkships gobbled up by a single school. There aren't enough clerkships out there to justify giving so many to our school when you've got 13 better schools (as Capitol Idea pointed out), all with smaller classes.

Second question: there's no way to know, really. Certainly a lot of government gigs have more GULC alumni than other schools, but that's as likely due to proximity and self-selection as anything else. I haven't met a ton of Mich people at my government internships (FCC & DOJ Crim), but I'm sure their grads get the same basic opportunities we get at GULC. The biggest bump you'd get from going to GULC is the ability to do government externships throughout the semester, plus the nebulous ability to network (which is only as helpful as you make it), and finally, you get a minuscule boost in being able to show your commitment to living in DC (which you otherwise explain away in one sentence during the interview). But everyone knows Michigan is "better" in that it's slightly harder to get into, so it's probably a wash in the end. The other advantage of Michigan would be better (or easier access to) fallback options if your dream job doesn't work out.

[gazorpazorp]

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[EzraFitz]

Any insight into why GULC's federal clerkship % is consistently low?

Also, is it any easier to get FedGov -- or something like the DC Defender's Office, Congressional Legislative Counsel, etc. -- coming out of GULC than it would be coming out of a lower-T14 peer (think Mich), due to proximity and/or networking opportunities?

For the first question: I can't offer any real insight cuz I'm not a clerkship contender, but I wonder if the percentage is particularly low just due to our excessively massive class size. If we somehow jumped up to a 10% clerkship rate, that would be 68 federal clerkships gobbled up by a single school. There aren't enough clerkships out there to justify giving so many to our school when you've got 13 better schools (as Capitol Idea pointed out), all with smaller classes.

Second question: there's no way to know, really. Certainly a lot of government gigs have more GULC alumni than other schools, but that's as likely due to proximity and self-selection as anything else. I haven't met a ton of Mich people at my government internships (FCC & DOJ Crim), but I'm sure their grads get the same basic opportunities we get at GULC. The biggest bump you'd get from going to GULC is the ability to do government externships throughout the semester, plus the nebulous ability to network (which is only as helpful as you make it), and finally, you get a minuscule boost in being able to show your commitment to living in DC (which you otherwise explain away in one sentence during the interview). But everyone knows Michigan is "better" in that it's slightly harder to get into, so it's probably a wash in the end. The other advantage of Michigan would be better (or easier access to) fallback options if your dream job doesn't work out.

Any insight into why GULC's federal clerkship % is consistently low?

Because there are 13 better schools than GULC? Georgetown also does kind of hamfisted job of getting/encouraging people who have the grades/writing for clerkships to seriously consider them - you get people coming in who want it from the start and only a subset of them will have the grades or writing ability to make it.

Thanks, guys.

RE: federal clerkships, I guess the large class size makes the most sense to me as a reason for the low percentage. Of course there are 13 better schools, but when schools like Texas & Vandy are tripling GULC's FC%, and schools like GW and American also have a higher %... I feel compelled to search for another reason.

Of all of the relatively poorly run offices at GULC, the clerkship one is simply bad. I have one individual professor who has helped me a lot through the process, but GULC simply doesn't do clerkships well. I'm not sure why that is, since there are plenty of professors with good connections who would help, but they don't even know which students to help. It's kind of sad really. Also large class size is big. FT clerkship numbers individually: GULC = 24, Vandy = 18, American = 19, Texas = 30, GW = 16. So yeah, the percentages are higher, but the numbers are a lot closer (and Texas does have freakishly good Fed Clerkship placement), and I agree that GULC SHOULD have easily higher percentages, but they don't alone tell the story.

[Mr. Blackacre]

Of all of the relatively poorly run offices at GULC, the clerkship one is simply bad. I have one individual professor who has helped me a lot through the process, but GULC simply doesn't do clerkships well. I'm not sure why that is, since there are plenty of professors with good connections who would help, but they don't even know which students to help. It's kind of sad really. Also large class size is big. FT clerkship numbers individually: GULC = 24, Vandy = 18, American = 19, Texas = 30, GW = 16. So yeah, the percentages are higher, but the numbers are a lot closer (and Texas does have freakishly good Fed Clerkship placement), and I agree that GULC SHOULD have easily higher percentages, but they don't alone tell the story.

EzraFitz hit the nail right on the head. The clerkship office at GULC is notoriously terrible. Which doesn't mean it's impossible to get a clerkship, only that it takes quite a bit more effort to get the right connections & have your application looked at.

[gazorpazorp]

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[Mr. Blackacre]

In terms of these "unique opportunities" that GULC students enjoy simply by virtue of being based in DC during the school year -- can somebody share some concrete examples of the types of positions that are attainable as a 2L or 3L during the school year? What is the level of availability when it comes to positions on Capitol Hill, or with non-profits, government agencies, etc?

And how feasible is it to really do meaningful work/externships while taking classes, writing for journal, etc? Are these positions typically resume "highlights," on the same level as 1L/2L summer gigs, or am I comparing apples to oranges?

And when it does come time to find a summer position -- I'm assuming an enormous % of these DC gigs go to HYSCCNPMV, and GULC's home field advantage goes by the wayside (at least a bit)?

District Court externships, any type of DOJ work, US Attorney's Offices in DC/VA/MD, truckloads of positions on the hill, public defenders again in DC/VA/MD, administrative agencies, the list goes on. In my experience and from judging at what my friends have been doing during the school year, it's not very difficult, and very feasible, to extern or work during the semester. Journal work, particularly during 2L year, doesn't really take much more than 5-10 hours a week, and you can limit your school work to 40 hours a week until the month before final. That leaves you with plenty of time to add 15 hours a week for an externship.

How meaningful the work that you will be doing ends up being heavily depends on who you will be working for. For judges for instance, oftentimes judges at D.D.C. will discharge the more annoying freedom of information act cases on interns because no one likes to do those. For some judges you'll pretty much be doing only that, but others will also let you do much more substantive stuff. As far as I know from a friend who externed at a PD office, they ended up working very closely with their attorney on a few really interesting cases.
That being said, the positions generally will not be on the same level as your summer gig. You're only working 10-20 hours a week as opposed to 40+, so your opportunity to put time into a case / build a connection with the people you'll be working with that allow you to get more responsibility and get to do more interesting work will be much more limited. But that doesn't mean externing is any less of a resume highlight than what you do during your 1L summer - really, what you do during 1L summer is not very important as long as it's something you like and is law related. It's less important than what you do 2L summer, which often gives the indication to potential employers of what you actually want to do after graduation (e.g. summer associate = the best path to biglaw, work at a public defender's office = gunning for PD, etc).

Finally, as far as GULC's home advantage in DC, it does get eroded come OCI time when compared to HYSCCN. Does it get eroded with respect to MVP (or whatever the order is these days)? Not as much. Definitely with respect to Virginia since their home market is also D.C., but I don't really know how much Mich. and Penn. grads affect D.C. summer offers. It's kind of hard to gauge since while we know GULC's overall biglaw placement (which is pretty bad) and the geographical breakdown of grads (which is still fairly D.C. heavy), we don't actually know how many of those who did get biglaw ended up in D.C.

[gazorpazorp]

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[BmoreOrLess]

In terms of these "unique opportunities" that GULC students enjoy simply by virtue of being based in DC during the school year -- can somebody share some concrete examples of the types of positions that are attainable as a 2L or 3L during the school year? What is the level of availability when it comes to positions on Capitol Hill, or with non-profits, government agencies, etc?

And how feasible is it to really do meaningful work/externships while taking classes, writing for journal, etc? Are these positions typically resume "highlights," on the same level as 1L/2L summer gigs, or am I comparing apples to oranges?

And when it does come time to find a summer position -- I'm assuming an enormous % of these DC gigs go to HYSCCNPMV, and GULC's home field advantage goes by the wayside (at least a bit)?

District Court externships, any type of DOJ work, US Attorney's Offices in DC/VA/MD, truckloads of positions on the hill, public defenders again in DC/VA/MD, administrative agencies, the list goes on. In my experience and from judging at what my friends have been doing during the school year, it's not very difficult, and very feasible, to extern or work during the semester. Journal work, particularly during 2L year, doesn't really take much more than 5-10 hours a week, and you can limit your school work to 40 hours a week until the month before final. That leaves you with plenty of time to add 15 hours a week for an externship.

Yea, you can easily find an additional 20-30 hours a week during 2L. I spend no more than 20 hours on school (outside of finals), and anywhere from a couple hours to at most 10 during the week a few times a semester on journal nonsense.

[EzraFitz]

In terms of these "unique opportunities" that GULC students enjoy simply by virtue of being based in DC during the school year -- can somebody share some concrete examples of the types of positions that are attainable as a 2L or 3L during the school year? What is the level of availability when it comes to positions on Capitol Hill, or with non-profits, government agencies, etc?

And how feasible is it to really do meaningful work/externships while taking classes, writing for journal, etc? Are these positions typically resume "highlights," on the same level as 1L/2L summer gigs, or am I comparing apples to oranges?

And when it does come time to find a summer position -- I'm assuming an enormous % of these DC gigs go to HYSCCNPMV, and GULC's home field advantage goes by the wayside (at least a bit)?

District Court externships, any type of DOJ work, US Attorney's Offices in DC/VA/MD, truckloads of positions on the hill, public defenders again in DC/VA/MD, administrative agencies, the list goes on. In my experience and from judging at what my friends have been doing during the school year, it's not very difficult, and very feasible, to extern or work during the semester. Journal work, particularly during 2L year, doesn't really take much more than 5-10 hours a week, and you can limit your school work to 40 hours a week until the month before final. That leaves you with plenty of time to add 15 hours a week for an externship.

Yea, you can easily find an additional 20-30 hours a week during 2L. I spend no more than 20 hours on school (outside of finals), and anywhere from a couple hours to at most 10 during the week a few times a semester on journal nonsense.

Hey now, I resemble that remark.

[Glasseyes]

In terms of these "unique opportunities" that GULC students enjoy simply by virtue of being based in DC during the school year -- can somebody share some concrete examples of the types of positions that are attainable as a 2L or 3L during the school year? What is the level of availability when it comes to positions on Capitol Hill, or with non-profits, government agencies, etc?

And how feasible is it to really do meaningful work/externships while taking classes, writing for journal, etc? Are these positions typically resume "highlights," on the same level as 1L/2L summer gigs, or am I comparing apples to oranges?

And when it does come time to find a summer position -- I'm assuming an enormous % of these DC gigs go to HYSCCNPMV, and GULC's home field advantage goes by the wayside (at least a bit)?

Pretty much anything that would hire a summer intern in DC will probably be happy to take a fall or spring extern during either semester. I know people working for DC judges, senate judiciary committee, all sorts of random stuff on the hill (I don't know more details or I'd share), USAO, DOJ (I did DOJ last semester), FCC, FTC, SEC, EPA, CFPB... all of the agencies, basically. There are also a million NGO's and trade groups, plus tech companies like Facebook, Google, Microsoft, and Apple hire legal interns and externs for various types of work (some of these are hyper-competitive). Some of the jobs that are impossible to get during the summer are much more readily available during the semester, when you're not competing with kids from Harvard, Yale, and everywhere else (especially true for certain DOJ sections). If you're interested in regulatory work, some of the clinics allow for practicing directly with the FCC or EPA, so that's another interesting possibility if it aligns with your goals.

If this stuff sounds interesting, you'd probably like it here.

[gazorpazorp]

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[Londonbear]

Thanks to everyone who has helped me out with my last few questions.

I noticed that this free GUTS Bus has stops in Arlington and on Georgetown's main campus. About how long does it take to get the Law Center from those locations via the GUTS Bus? Will I be looking at a daily hassle if I go with somewhere like Arlington for housing?

Dunno about GUTS, but a viable alternative is metro. You can metro on orange line in Arlington, switch to red line at Metro Center, from Judiciary or Union is about 5 min walk to campus. Might be faster than taking GUTS

[Glasseyes]

Thanks to everyone who has helped me out with my last few questions.

I noticed that this free GUTS Bus has stops in Arlington and on Georgetown's main campus. About how long does it take to get the Law Center from those locations via the GUTS Bus? Will I be looking at a daily hassle if I go with somewhere like Arlington for housing?

Never taken that bus, but if you're in Arlington and taking anything that uses roads, you'll hit the same hellish rush hour traffic coming into the city. Since so many classes start at 9 am, it's pretty much unavoidable. That's not to say you shouldn't do it. Google maps can give you a pretty good estimate what you'd be looking at (try both by car and public transportation, set the time to arrive by 8:30 or 9 am, see what you're looking at). As an alternative, the metro is generally a good way to avoid rush hour traffic, though it presents its own challenges. I live a bit further out on the red line and I'm ok with the commute because the neighborhood accommodates my family. If I was younger and single, I don't see any reason not to live right by campus and cut out the commute altogether.

[missie]

Of the big apartment buildings near campus, are there any you would steer clear from? Any strong recommendations for someone planning on living in a studio? Looking at 425 Mass, Mass Court, 77H etc...

[BmoreOrLess]

77H is kinda in an iffy spot. Great building tho. 425/Mass Courts are in a better spot (but still not great). Mass courts is a little cheaper, 425 is nicer. Tons of law students live in each of the three.

[20171203]

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[missie]

How do people afford to live in these places right next to the school? Even the 2 bedrooms don't come close to being within range of the COL allocated by the loan amounts for 9 months ($1455/month for base rent this year). I looked in to these and definitely wanted to live there until I saw how out of loan-feasible budget they were.

Yeah the prices are insane - I know myself though and for lots of reasons just need to make it work however I can

[missie]

77H is kinda in an iffy spot. Great building tho. 425/Mass Courts are in a better spot (but still not great). Mass courts is a little cheaper, 425 is nicer. Tons of law students live in each of the three.

Thanks for the response - good to know.

[Nolachicken]

How do people afford to live in these places right next to the school? Even the 2 bedrooms don't come close to being within range of the COL allocated by the loan amounts for 9 months ($1455/month for base rent this year). I looked in to these and definitely wanted to live there until I saw how out of loan-feasible budget they were.

Where did you find the breakdown? Thanks!

[20171203]

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[gazorpazorp]

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[Anonnonnon]

Hello all,

I am a prospective student, looking at Georgetown law. I hear mixed opinions when it comes to GULC's ability to secure jobs for its students.

I've seen all the numbers and all the stats on all the websites, but if possible I'd like to get an insight into the personal opinion of GULC students for the following: Is it hard to get a job? How is it scoring a job in biglaw? Is it as iffy as some people say, or is there really not too much to worry about?

Thank you to anyone in advance to anyone who answers this.