The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc Forum

[ScrabbleChamp]

And your hostility is a bit much, for the record.

Cool bro. I'll make a note of it. Now can we please let this get back to being a productive thread?

haha.

Considering part of the discussion is regarding whether WM or UST gives you better chances in the MN market, it is entirely appropriate to be raising opinions of which school does so. So what are you getting at in terms of "productive"? Or was that simply a passive aggressive slight? (which would be fitting in MN, I suppose).

In any event, I really have to agree with an above poster about how unfortunate it is that Hamline isn't even part of the discussion anymore. Once upon a time, Hamline Law had a solid reputation in this market.

All credibility lost.

[paulinaporizkova]

LOL Hamline. What a shitty school

[birdlaw117]

MidwestJosh, since you're a 3L at Minnesota, how about you discuss your job situation if you're comfortable doing that. Or maybe just what the current situation is for UMN grads. That's probably a lot more relevant to people than the previous "debate."

[paulinaporizkova]

This thread started as a very helpful attorney taking questions. If you'd like to discuss a bit, then so be it, but there will be no more pointless bickering or snide bullshittery.

This is a helpful thread in an on-topic forum, and I'm prepared to ban the living hell out of anyone who tries to make it otherwise.

sorry boo

[bjsesq]

This thread started as a very helpful attorney taking questions. If you'd like to discuss a bit, then so be it, but there will be no more pointless bickering or snide bullshittery.

This is a helpful thread in an on-topic forum, and I'm prepared to ban the living hell out of anyone who tries to make it otherwise.

sorry boo

The fuck did you bring me into this for?

[MidwestJosh]

MidwestJosh, since you're a 3L at Minnesota, how about you discuss your job situation if you're comfortable doing that. Or maybe just what the current situation is for UMN grads. That's probably a lot more relevant to people than the previous "debate."

Job situation is all over the board - at all four schools. For the current 3L class, I know people at UMN who are going NYC and people who have no offer. I'd say the majority of my friends have offers, but I don't have any statistics for the current employment situation.

I had two offers - one biglaw and one small firm. I took the small firm job, but I'm aware the salary I'm getting there is on the high side for such.

PS - is your SN from a canadian tv show? If so - that's awesome.

[dusk2k2]

Midwest Josh, do you have any idea around what GPA is needed to have a shot at coif? I can't get this information from anyone!

Also, in the interest of providing more information for everyone, for the 2L class, I can think of around 30 people with NLJ 250 (or close to that size) SA positions. I know of zero people with NYC, and that's not for lack of trying from what I saw. I can only think of three people total going to Chicago and DC. Don't know anyone going west coast. In sum, its a HUGE risk to come here and expect to get biglaw outside of the upper Midwest. I'd go so far as to say its an exception and anyone succeeding in it is an extraordinary student (indeed, the ones I know are extraordinary students).

[MidwestJosh]

Midwest Josh, do you have any idea around what GPA is needed to have a shot at coif? I can't get this information from anyone!

Also, in the interest of providing more information for everyone, for the 2L class, I can think of around 30 people with NLJ 250 (or close to that size) SA positions. I know of zero people with NYC, and that's not for lack of trying from what I saw. I can only think of three people total going to Chicago and DC. Don't know anyone going west coast. In sum, its a HUGE risk to come here and expect to get biglaw outside of the upper Midwest. I'd go so far as to say its an exception and anyone succeeding in it is an extraordinary student (indeed, the ones I know are extraordinary students).

Check with Erin Keyes re: GPA question. I'm kind of curious as well.

As far as the statements regarding other regions, for the class of 2010 we placed 15 in NY and 14 in DC. For my own class I know of two people in my 1L section who have NYC jobs lined up. I'm not sure what the rest of my class' outlook looks like at this point.

[Martin34]

Anyone have Art III clerkship placement data on recent classes at UMN??

[luckyman2000]

Hi all,

This is an interesting site. I am a Canadian accepted to UM. I do not know if I will be moving to MN b/c everybody is talking about the bad economy.
Do you think being an alien is a big disadvantage in getting a job (any legal job)? Anything about how international JD students are doing in MN would be helpful. Thanks.

[Tanicius]

Hi all,

This is an interesting site. I am a Canadian accepted to UM. I do not know if I will be moving to MN b/c everybody is talking about the bad economy.
Do you think being an alien is a big disadvantage in getting a job (any legal job)? Anything about how international JD students are doing in MN would be helpful. Thanks.

Being from Canada won't be a disadvantage at all. However, if you're from a populated area in Canada or considering schools in Canada, it would probably be the better route to employment. My understanding of the Canadian legal market is that it has suffered very little retraction, and most people from all of the schools still get jobs.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Back taking questions.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

This is aimed at the original poster. What do you think this falls OCI will be like for targeting MN firms? Interested coming from a T14.

OCI should be fairly heavy. The large firms are seeing major defections at the associate levels. I know of a few firms that have been completely depleted from associates going in-house due to a growing lateral market. They'll be hitting the usual schools pretty heavily this fall.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Thanks, OP, this has been a really informative read.

Can you speak really quickly to the reception of a Notre Dame degree in the MSP area?

Depends on what percentile. You'll be a stronger applicant regardless of class rank when competing against UST and Hamline. You'll need to be considerably high-ranked to compete against a UMN grad, and at least on par with a Mitchell grad.

Josh, I think this was directed at me. But generally, an ND degree is going to be considered on par with a MN degree. There is a good ND alumni base at all the top firms, so you'd be wise to reach out to the local chapter. You will not be compared to UST, WM or Hamline.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Well, this thread turned into a shit-show. Thanks for fucking up a useful thread for others.

I'm back if you want to ask any more questions. Sorry for the break. Hopefully I can put this thread back on track for everyone.

[birdlaw117]

Well, this thread turned into a shit-show. Thanks for fucking up a useful thread for others.

I'm back if you want to ask any more questions. Sorry for the break. Hopefully I can put this thread back on track for everyone.

What do the top firms look for in students from Columbia/NYU? I'm not from Minneapolis, but I'm from about 3 hours away in a different state. Would I need to show stronger ties than this? Similarly, how would I best sell this is being strong ties (because I really would like to work in the Twin Cities).

I'll probably have more questions but let's just start with that. Thanks!

[ScrabbleChamp]

Well, this thread turned into a shit-show. Thanks for fucking up a useful thread for others.

I'm back if you want to ask any more questions. Sorry for the break. Hopefully I can put this thread back on track for everyone.

What do the top firms look for in students from Columbia/NYU? I'm not from Minneapolis, but I'm from about 3 hours away in a different state. Would I need to show stronger ties than this? Similarly, how would I best sell this is being strong ties (because I really would like to work in the Twin Cities).

I'll probably have more questions but let's just start with that. Thanks!

Similarly to this, I'm going to Michigan and I'm not from the area, but my wife was raised near MSP and she would like to go back after I graduate. Does being married with kids make a big difference when condisering flight risk of those not from the area? Are being married to a former MSP native and having kids enough to overcome the obstacle of not having direct ties to the area?

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Well, this thread turned into a shit-show. Thanks for fucking up a useful thread for others.

I'm back if you want to ask any more questions. Sorry for the break. Hopefully I can put this thread back on track for everyone.

What do the top firms look for in students from Columbia/NYU? I'm not from Minneapolis, but I'm from about 3 hours away in a different state. Would I need to show stronger ties than this? Similarly, how would I best sell this is being strong ties (because I really would like to work in the Twin Cities).

I'll probably have more questions but let's just start with that. Thanks!

You'll want to be able to demonstrate ties to the area, which you should be able to do if you are from WI, IA, ND, SD or MN. Generally, having grown up in one of these states is usually enough to get your foot in the door. During the interview, be prepared to answer why you are looking at a MN firm over the New York firms. Some people will be skepitcal, but most firms are very happy to have summer associates from NYU/Columbia and other big east coast schools.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Well, this thread turned into a shit-show. Thanks for fucking up a useful thread for others.

I'm back if you want to ask any more questions. Sorry for the break. Hopefully I can put this thread back on track for everyone.

What do the top firms look for in students from Columbia/NYU? I'm not from Minneapolis, but I'm from about 3 hours away in a different state. Would I need to show stronger ties than this? Similarly, how would I best sell this is being strong ties (because I really would like to work in the Twin Cities).

I'll probably have more questions but let's just start with that. Thanks!

Similarly to this, I'm going to Michigan and I'm not from the area, but my wife was raised near MSP and she would like to go back after I graduate. Does being married with kids make a big difference when condisering flight risk of those not from the area? Are being married to a former MSP native and having kids enough to overcome the obstacle of not having direct ties to the area?

Being married with kids is not a negative. Also, being able to say my wife is from Minneapolis and we are looking to move back to be closer to the family is going to garner positive responses from most of us. A number of attorneys you'll be working with and interviewing with are not from MPLS, but moved to the area due to spouses and extended families.

[birdlaw117]

You'll want to be able to demonstrate ties to the area, which you should be able to do if you are from WI, IA, ND, SD or MN. Generally, having grown up in one of these states is usually enough to get your foot in the door. During the interview, be prepared to answer why you are looking at a MN firm over the New York firms. Some people will be skepitcal, but most firms are very happy to have summer associates from NYU/Columbia and other big east coast schools.

Thanks! I definitely like the area and grew up not far away. I also like the work/life balance at Minneapolis firms a lot more than NY firms. The one thing that concerns me is potentially fewer/lesser exit options. Do you think that is a rational concern, or would the exit options be more similar than I realize?

If you had to sell someone on why MN firms are better to work at than NY firms, what would you tell them?

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

You'll want to be able to demonstrate ties to the area, which you should be able to do if you are from WI, IA, ND, SD or MN. Generally, having grown up in one of these states is usually enough to get your foot in the door. During the interview, be prepared to answer why you are looking at a MN firm over the New York firms. Some people will be skepitcal, but most firms are very happy to have summer associates from NYU/Columbia and other big east coast schools.

Thanks! I definitely like the area and grew up not far away. I also like the work/life balance at Minneapolis firms a lot more than NY firms. The one thing that concerns me is potentially fewer/lesser exit options. Do you think that is a rational concern, or would the exit options be more similar than I realize?

If you had to sell someone on why MN firms are better to work at than NY firms, what would you tell them?

There are obviously going to be better exit options from a Vault 50 firm than from one of the local Minnesota firms, even Faegre and Dorsey. That being said, the Minnesota firms will provide you with good exit opportunities around the 4-5 year mark if you are interested in Minnesota companies. There are a number of fortune 500 companies to which you can lateral after a few years at a top Minnesota firm. The further away from the top you go, however, the harder it will be to lateral to one of these. If you go to a top NY firm, you will obviously be more attractive on paper to lateral, but you'll still have to go through the "why do you want to move here" interviews.

Regarding why MN firms are better to work at than NY firms, it is hard to say. Assuming you are talking about the big NY firms, the only really benefit a MN firm is going to have is immediate client contact, earlier responsibility, and less hours. We can't pay or bill what the coastal firms bill. We are on a very different business model. A consequence is that you aren't going to get all the same perks that you will at a top coastal firm. However, while there are only about four or five firms in Minnesota that I would consider Biglaw, I think each provides a fantastic opportunity to build a practice and learn. Granted, you'll be doing document review as a junior associate just like any other junior associate, but you'll be exposed to other legal skills early on as well.

[birdlaw117]

There are obviously going to be better exit options from a Vault 50 firm than from one of the local Minnesota firms, even Faegre and Dorsey. That being said, the Minnesota firms will provide you with good exit opportunities around the 4-5 year mark if you are interested in Minnesota companies. There are a number of fortune 500 companies to which you can lateral after a few years at a top Minnesota firm. The further away from the top you go, however, the harder it will be to lateral to one of these. If you go to a top NY firm, you will obviously be more attractive on paper to lateral, but you'll still have to go through the "why do you want to move here" interviews.

Regarding why MN firms are better to work at than NY firms, it is hard to say. Assuming you are talking about the big NY firms, the only really benefit a MN firm is going to have is immediate client contact, earlier responsibility, and less hours. We can't pay or bill what the coastal firms bill. We are on a very different business model. A consequence is that you aren't going to get all the same perks that you will at a top coastal firm. However, while there are only about four or five firms in Minnesota that I would consider Biglaw, I think each provides a fantastic opportunity to build a practice and learn. Granted, you'll be doing document review as a junior associate just like any other junior associate, but you'll be exposed to other legal skills early on as well.

Very informative responses. Thank you very much.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Any time. Keep in mind you can do a few years in NY, Boston or DC and then lateral back to a Minnesota firm for your mid-level years as well. Minnesota firms are becoming more aware of the benefits of the lateral market for picking up attorneys with large firm experience on the coasts. This is becoming necessary as midlevel associates lateral out of the Minnesota firms to go in-house.

[birdlaw117]

Any time. Keep in mind you can do a few years in NY, Boston or DC and then lateral back to a Minnesota firm for your mid-level years as well. Minnesota firms are becoming more aware of the benefits of the lateral market for picking up attorneys with large firm experience on the coasts. This is becoming necessary as midlevel associates lateral out of the Minnesota firms to go in-house.

Do you think this is a good option? Meaning, would a mid-level lateral be considered for partner comparably to someone who starts out as a first-year at the firm? Obviously this would be different from one firm to another. I'm just curious to hear your opinion.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

You'll be judged by your work product and your client development skills during your time at the firm, whether that time starts at year 1 or year 5 does not matter. Typically, partnership classes are made up of a decent split of people who lateraled in and people who started with the firm.